Organized Religion - Good/Bad? Your take?

[judes]

So that the religious debate that I inserted into the homosexuality thread has somewhere to go, here is the thread to discuss organized religion.

Organized religion refers to any sort of religious groups that have "spiritual leaders" and may branch off into smaller groups / denominations. These may include Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Jews...(not that I want to focus on religions with roots from Abraham, only that I know pitifully little)

I'm curious to hear what you think about the effects of organized religion over the years. I'm not particularily knowledgable about the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, or the influence of the Catholic Church, for example.

scarletwillow, go for it.

[scarletwillow]

I despise the notion.
Organized religion is no more than brainwashing.

Religion, or any school of thought that asserts their beliefs on their followers receive nothing but criticism from me. Organized religion is very inflexible--there are only extremes. Those who are stuck between are usually not accepted by either side, or thrown aside. Also, if you do not belong to whichever side you speak to, your views will not be accepted.
I will use the Bible as an example. I cannot accept it as a book of truth, or that it is the Holy word. I CAN accept that it teaches very important morals (most of it, not including the various rape scenes, etc) that UNDOUBTEDLY have a positive impact on its followers. However, as I have said before, organized religion is strict, and modern interpretation of a 2000 year old work simply does not fit.
It is assumed that the Jews banned eating pork not because God said so, but because they did not have refrigeration or preservation techniques to keep it sanitary. What better way to keep people from contracting diseases than telling them it is Holy Law? And Christians--do not brush this aside. From what I have gathered, the Old Testament still holds true in its own right--that it was valid, but the moral decisions made are skewed because Jesus Christ did not come into the scene.

Judes, you categorize Christianity separately from Catholicism. Is there a reason?
I have asked other Protestants this question. I think it's rather silly. Protestants pick and choose which Biblic principles they follow (take divorce, for example).

EDIT:
BEFORE REPLYING TO THIS READ THE FOLLOWING
This is a thread on ORGANIZED RELIGION. Do not try to defend your religious principles in terms of why they are valid. I have cited these examples to attack the notion of organized religion. Defend the principles in terms of that doctrine, not your own religion. If you don't, I'll laugh at you.

[JianDan[Ai]]

To start off, I am not religious. Never have been, although I have been to Church, both catholic and christian as well as bhuddist temples (for service/prayer, not just visiting).

Until my senior year in High School, I woulda said that Religion is dumb, and that people are blindly following the teachings of some man in a book. I did however have respect for those chrisitians who took their religion seriously, which in Southern california is very rare. I can easily name 50 people I know who call themselves christian, however do drugs, sleep around, steal, and do other things against the 10 commandments. There are too many "christians" that I know who go to church only to hook up.

What I learned, was from a friend of mine who was a "non practitcing" christian. She said that the reason she wanted to be a good christian was not because she believed she would go to heaven when she died. Or at least that was not the biggest reason. She said she was a christian because it gave her a reason to live when she had trouble finding one. It helped her build a good moral sense, and gave her mental strenght when she needed it.

Even though I don't think I will ever be able to believe in any religion, I truly respect those people who take it seriously. Those using it as a club or something, it is people like that who give religion a bad name. And even so, I think believing in a greater power, a god, is quite silly and the same as idol worshiping (which is forbidden by the bible since I guess god gets jealous hahaha)

As for bhuddism, I feel it is more of a philosophy on how to live. I can respect that more than christianity. Bhudda in fact is not a god, but instead was a man who attained enlightment, so for me, if i was ever to join a relgion, bhuddism would be the way.

Anyways, back to the question, good or bad? I think it depends on how you want to look at it being organized. Organized in terms of people networking and getting together to pray, etc etc, I think this is a BAD part of religion. Christians feel its their job to "save" the rest of us "non believers" and quite frankly I dont appreciate them coming to knock on my door at 8 in the morning, although i can admire their devotion. It also creates enviorments where people WILL go to church JUST to hook up.

On the other hand, if we are looking at organized as being, that the religion itself is organized, as in they have their bible/torah/scriptures, or whatever, and their own clear philiosphy of what will lead to greater happiness, and that they wish that their followers live by rules and morals, I think its a GOOD thing. It creates a better community gives people things to live for.

I wasn't sure how to describe the idea I have in my head, so most of you probably don't get what I just said (I know I wouldnt) so here is what I mean. For example, the KKK, one could argue that they are a religion. You could say they are a religion cuz they have their "meetings" and have their own "set of beliefs" etc etc. However if you ask anyone, they will just say they are a racist cult. Its the fundemental difference that they mean harm to others, which makes them different from a real religion.

OK i lost my thought. I think im making no sense. I'll shut up now

[scarletwillow]

I love you Alby Hwang <3

And your post reminded me of another point.
You mentioned your friend was Christian because she could find rest and peace in her faith.

That, in my opinion, is one of the greatest flaws with religion in general.
Those who look for strength in a higher being ignore themselves.
You cannot draw strength from what does not exist. You can have false faith.
What I have done, I accredit to myself and no one else (maybe mommy and daddy <3).

[hisashiluv14]

What I have done, I accredit to myself and no one else (maybe mommy and daddy <3).

Ditto. Why do I thank an invisible non-being for the food on my table when my mom was the one who cooked it?

I'm a super atheist, and while I'm all for religious toleration, I have to admit that my patience for Christianity has worn seriously thin over the past year or so (and George Bush's re-election didn't help matters much at all). All too often, you come across arrogant Christians who're so full of themselves that they sincerely believe that they can easily convert a person of another faith by bringing them to some prayer session or whatever. And then there's that very Christian thing about converting the world, spreading the gospel, whatever, which I wholly disagree with. To me, it completely smacks of Western chauvinism, bringing us back to the colonial days of the old and the whole Europeanisation of the non-European parts of the world, and their pretentious "moral mission" of bringing civilisation to Asia and Africa. I mean, I've always wondered: if the evangelists never made it out of Europe, would people in Asia still believe in Christianity? And if you've never heard of Christianity, how can you possibly believe in it?

But the biggest problem with organised religions of all kinds is that they, inevitably, lead to the growth of religious intolerance and narrow-mindedness. Christians merely seem to be the ones taking the most flak for this, for some reason or other.

Uh, I've lost my train of thought there. But I guess my point is that the fact that so many faiths exist at the same time is mere proof that no one religion is right. And hence? We're just wasting our time. I opt for worshipping myself, thank you very much.

[enigmatic_phoenix]

i am against organised religion but it still interests me. have you listened to those really devoted people talk? i swear i think they are brainwashed or want to brainwash you. you can't question them at all. i have perfectly valid arguments against various elements of their religion but they are so rigid. they preach acceptance, forgiveness, whatever but they don't show it. those are just the people i talk to, not everyone who belongs to a religion.

it doesn't take a religion to make you a good person. we don't need people to tell us what is right and what is wrong because everyone already knows. everyone has a concience.

lets look at catholocism. its awful how that religion, which is supposed to be good, does not accept homosexuals. also the sexual crimes perpetrated by priests, the unequalness between women and men as leaders. not to mention the ugliness of the crusades. how is that going to appeal to you to be good.

then there's islam. their women have to cover themselves and the men walk around freely. the women pray at the back of the men in mosques. they say it's so the men are not tempted by the women. what does that say about their men?!

what about all those rituals religions make you perform. those were manmade! god did not say to do all that stuff to make you a good person. why would you devote your efforts to such practices.

the only good thing i see from religion is that it keeps your faith in god.

[scarletwillow]

The hardest part about fighting organized religion is that religious practitioners never take blame.
When fault is brought onto their denomination, they either break off and form their own, deny the claim, or blame it on their predecessors.

Example; the Church claims that the world is 10,000 years old. EVERYONE knows it's not 10,000 years old. I suppose some people still believe stupid things like that, but the ones who don't blame it on faulty church figures, not accepting that the 10,000 year old earth idea has been a vital part of Christianity since the beginning. That sort of thinking will likely come with evolution, too, and the Creationists will make up some excuse for it.

[twilighthush]

Example; the Church claims that the world is 10,000 years old. EVERYONE knows it's not 10,000 years old. I suppose some people still believe stupid things like that, but the ones who don't blame it on faulty church figures, not accepting that the 10,000 year old earth idea has been a vital part of Christianity since the beginning. That sort of thinking will likely come with evolution, too, and the Creationists will make up some excuse for it.

I'm going to be primarily discussing the four major groups in this post: Catholicism, Christianity, Judaism, and Muslims. So consider this a disclaimer.

Organized religion does nothing but segregate the masses into people who share the same belief systems -- radical or not. It's common ground for people who want to desperately believe there is an afterlife, and that there is something bigger than them in the world and in life.

It gives their life focus, and as books like the Koran and the Bible tend to be great works of literature that have strong roots in morals, values, and traditions, it's something that people easily latch on to -- despite the tens of thousands (quite literally) of contradictions within the same text.

However, what's ironic is the fact that the Bible is NOT a seminal text. The ur text actually originated from Homer's The Iliad, and Virgil did an amazing number in The Aeneid with laying out the foundation to what is Christianity today. But that's an entire other debate. ;)

I spent quite some time at college studying the contradictiosn and the threads between 'Holy' works, along with what were often the devastating results of the bigotry and ignorance that were spread amongst such groups, who believed themselves to be Elite and their ideals to be the only ideals that should be followed.

It's ironic, though, that groups like Christians can claim themselves to be all about peace and love, but history has proven again and again that Christians -- and Catholics -- have been the fount of more hatred and prejudice than any other religious group in the world. In the 14th Century, the Spanish Inquistion wiped out tens of thousands of innocents. In the 9th Century, we saw one of the first Holy Crusades cause widespread religious genocide when Protestant-based faith groups killed millions of Moors (Muslims) and Jews.

Let's not forget that Christians/Catholics also have laid claim to some of the country's most ridiculous attacks rooted in prejudice on huge groups that stretch from homosexuals to women who miscarried babies. (Yup. You got that right. Victims of miscarriage under the attack of Catholics in Virginia. Amazing what CNN.com reports these days. Or appalling.)

In regards to Judaism, one of their most revered fathers -- Abraham -- had 9 wives. In fact, because his wife Sarah could not deliver him a son, he actually slept with the daughter to produce a son. Can't get better than that! Polygamy AND incest! Now that's just incredible!

When Lot was running away from Soddom and Gomorrah, apparently he turned to offer the crowd to rape his twelve daughters. But for some reason, God wasn't pissed off about that!

There are thousands of references like the above. I can go on and on, especially with all the research I did during my studies on these subjects.

As for Muslims, I think it's pretty easy to say where these groups have gone wrong with radical faith beliefs. As a New Yorker, I'm living testament -- and that's all that needs to be said. New York.

Quite frankly, I'm beginning to think that the only tolerant organized group are Celtics and Druids -- the most extreme of tree huggers who worship nature. They don't go around killing people, and they're all about trees and peace and love.

Yeah. Tree huggers. Hippies. That's the way to go, if you want some kind of organized religion.

Me? I'll stick with Agnosticsm.


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ADDENDUM to scarletwillow - Silver Ash the band? Because if that's what that little bit in your signature is about, I've got a thing or two to say that might surprise you. :B

[judes]

mm. going through this thread piece by piece because i do not have time right now. but, everybody's made really good points so far. and hey, i am part of an organized religious group.

And Christians--do not brush this aside. From what I have gathered, the Old Testament still holds true in its own right--that it was valid, but the moral decisions made are skewed because Jesus Christ did not come into the scene.

yes. that's basically it. when Jesus came, he changed the Law and everything about it, so that if people were to justify their actions from stuff in the Old Testament - it's a no no. so the thing is to follow everything that Jesus taught, and only use the history from the Old Testament as books to learn from.

i think the problem with organized religion these days is that people don't understand why they believe what they believe, and what they actually do believe. they listen to all of these things said by the society, their churches, and they blindly follow what has been taught. i am ashamed of so called christians actually, who act in ways that are not following the bible that they are preaching as the ultimate truth at all.

to the example that alby brought up about his christian friend, i personally believe that being a christian isn't about trying to find some comfort in life, to find hope in a God. it's a lot more than that. it's a way of life, it's a way of thought. you aren't a christian just because you believe in Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, that's the first step, there's a long, long way to go. you have to become perfect yourself before you can judge others, and that's impossible...but people seem to leap on judging others and pointing fingers BEFORE they look at themselves. once again, this is because people don't try to understand why they believe what they believe, but only blindly follow. if you actually follow the teachings of Jesus, then you will see that before you can judge a person for their sins...for example, before you can persecute someone for being an adulterer, you have to look at your own life. maybe you've had premarital sex, maybe you've stolen something from someone. and i think that is what's warped about organized religion these days: being blind to what you're doing while pointing fingers at someone else.

so this is the point i'm trying to make -

organized religion and the values it puts forth gives people hope and faith in their lives, and a set of 'rules' to follow. it gives people direction, and when they are morals that will benefit society as a whole, it is good. but the problem with organized religion is the tendency, like people said before, to alienate, to exclude, and to put forth the mentality that different-is-bad. religious freedom is key for a society to function, and i guess the basic premise is "you believe what you want to believe, i believe what i want to believe. i have no right to impose my beliefs on you, and vice versa."

if people truly follow what jesus taught exactly, then there would not be the need for organized religion as we see it today.

and i'm not trying to exclude all other religions, just the one that i understand the most, which is christianity. i'm really attempting to put forth both sides here, from my personal experience and from my own limited understanding. i'm not trying to preach and tell you what is "good" for you, because only you can decide what is good for you.

Judes, you categorize Christianity separately from Catholicism. Is there a reason?
I have asked other Protestants this question. I think it's rather silly. Protestants pick and choose which Biblic principles they follow (take divorce, for example).

i better make it clear first that i'm an evangelical christian then. a fairly conservative one.

catholicism is different from christianity in that they worship Mary, the mother of Jesus. they follow the rule of the Pope, and believe that the Pope's religious ordinances (is that what they are called? i'm not sure. correct me if i'm wrong) are infallible. so basically, any decision from a religious standpoint that the Pope decides, is basically from God. and that they are "freed" from sin if they confess, and do the rituals...like certain Hail Marys or other things.

all of the other differences are minor. like their services are more traditional, their churches tend to be more pretty.

my problem with catholicism (and basically, the historical examples, such as the crusades, and other things headed by the catholic church):
1) religion must NEVER mix with the state. church as a powerful influence, as shown in history, has persecuted many innocent people. it has been used as an excuse for many atrocities commited over the years. i believe the church must stand independent of the state, and that there must not be a ruling body over all of the churches in the world (such as the vatican), because that tends to put power in the hands of a few people, and things easily go wrong from there. because people are prone to make mistakes. (jewish example would be the pharisees)
2) that leads to my second point, the idea of the Pope as the head of the religion. from what i know of catholicism, the Pope is chosen by the people. voted into power. i do not believe in anybody being perfect, and able to interpret the text of the bible. without the Pope, people would still be able to follow what God wants them to do if they truly set aside their own desires and focus on what the Bible is trying to teach: a way of life.
3) i don't believe that Mary, or the saints for that matter, have any special powers. i only believe in God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit. that's all. but this one is a personal matter, i dont know enough about this to say anything.

do i make ANY sense? i hope so.
any questions, fire away.

[ViBi]

omg... i cant believe u guys share the same beliefs that i do.. for so long i have kept these opinions to myself cos i thought ppl who were christians etc etc would be offended and try to "save" me...

i mean, even though i am a catholic.. i am only that by documents, but i am sooo an atheist at heart. i simply dont understand why ppl need to choose one religion over another. all religions preach the same ideals, love, tolerance etc etc.. yet, believers are made to believe that their own religion is the best and hence, causes everything that opposes the whole idea of religion. if it wasnt for religion, which is simply the dividing of ppl, there would be no jihad and ppl like osama bin laden who declares war for the "love of god" or allah etc. for me, i simply think it is most worthwhile to pick the best of all religions, and by these morals is how i choose to live my own live.

furthermore, i think in many cases, religion causes many ppl to rely on a being that wont help them in live at all. i mean, sure, religion is a source of hope for many in times of hardship and crisis. but (many of my parents friends, who are christian do this.. and it annoys me to hell ..hahah sorry for the pun) telling ur children to pray for good results in exams is not going to help. praying to god or whatever higher being is not going to help.. why dont these ppl just tell their children to study harder??? relying on god to live ur life is one of the stupidest notions of religion. for everything an individual achieves during their life time, it is because they have worked hard for it.. not because god gave it to them.. as they say, u make ur own luck.

does anyone else find religion, especially the christian ones, very hypocritical????? i cant stand the way they try to preach and yet, turns its back on its value.. one of the most recent examples is of pediphelia (sorry cant spell..but u no, i am talking about perverts and stuff) in the catholic and anglican churches amongst their priest. these priests have taken away the innocence of the children whom are meant to look up to them for direction. yet when the accusations and sexual abuse came, the church went into hiding regarding the issue.. is that how society should be?? simply, i dont think religion has a place in modern society...

so.. for all those who are interested enough to read my message.. i hope u realise that higher beings are not need to fulfil ur life..

[scarletwillow]

omg... i cant believe u guys share the same beliefs that i do.. for so long i have kept these opinions to myself cos i thought ppl who were christians etc etc would be offended and try to "save" me...

i mean, even though i am a catholic.. i am only that by documents, but i am sooo an atheist at heart. i simply dont understand why ppl need to choose one religion over another. all religions preach the same ideals, love, tolerance etc etc.. yet, believers are made to believe that their own religion is the best and hence, causes everything that opposes the whole idea of religion. if it wasnt for religion, which is simply the dividing of ppl, there would be no jihad and ppl like osama bin laden who declares war for the "love of god" or allah etc. for me, i simply think it is most worthwhile to pick the best of all religions, and by these morals is how i choose to live my own live.

furthermore, i think in many cases, religion causes many ppl to rely on a being that wont help them in live at all. i mean, sure, religion is a source of hope for many in times of hardship and crisis. but (many of my parents friends, who are christian do this.. and it annoys me to hell ..hahah sorry for the pun) telling ur children to pray for good results in exams is not going to help. praying to god or whatever higher being is not going to help.. why dont these ppl just tell their children to study harder??? relying on god to live ur life is one of the stupidest notions of religion. for everything an individual achieves during their life time, it is because they have worked hard for it.. not because god gave it to them.. as they say, u make ur own luck.

does anyone else find religion, especially the christian ones, very hypocritical????? i cant stand the way they try to preach and yet, turns its back on its value.. one of the most recent examples is of pediphelia (sorry cant spell..but u no, i am talking about perverts and stuff) in the catholic and anglican churches amongst their priest. these priests have taken away the innocence of the children whom are meant to look up to them for direction. yet when the accusations and sexual abuse came, the church went into hiding regarding the issue.. is that how society should be?? simply, i dont think religion has a place in modern society...

so.. for all those who are interested enough to read my message.. i hope u realise that higher beings are not need to fulfil ur life..

I'm glad you've come out with your true beliefs :)
I too was the same... former Christian, but saw the light and realized how much of a hellhole I was in.

I'd like to address another problem with religions like Christianity--the pray-and-forget ideology. I present to you a few examples; from what I have gathered, Christians believe that though God has "the plan", humans have their own freedom of choice. With that in mind, let me ask this:

A man has the ability and capacity to repent, but he is currently evil. He kills another man. Before he has repented, he is killed. What becomes of him? Even this question is brought up in classical literature (Hamlet, for example).

Most Christians in this world are complete opposites of what they are taught. How many people wear a cross and completely neglect Christian values? Who are the most devout Christians? The child pornographers (Protestants) and molesters (Catholics)? The ones who kill innocent people because of their religion? The Nazis? KKK?

Would Christianity have spread through Europe if Jesus was portrayed as a black or Arab?

And when I say Christianity, I refer to both Catholics and Protestants. Protestants, stop being so elitist. The Catholics worship the same God. They have the same holy book. They just have different interpretations and customs. The only real difference I see is that Protestants sin and forget, Catholics sin and say a few Hail Marys. Whoop-dee-doo.

[kjd-108]

i don't quite like this discussion...simply 'cuz it's all 'bout bashing the christianity. how 'bout changing the title? ;)

can anyone please give me an example and discuss 'bout other religions? or do i have to defend christians on this issue? :P

[twink0star]

is this like separation of church and state ??? this is my debate topic for the tournament this weekend hahahahah

are you trying to say that there SHOULD NOT be a specific religion for a country ????

i can debate all day long hahha

[ViBi]

i don't quite like this discussion...simply 'cuz it's all 'bout bashing the christianity. how 'bout changing the title? ;)

can anyone please give me an example and discuss 'bout other religions? or do i have to defend christians on this issue? :P

look, its been stated before, this thread was never intended to be about christian bashing, nor was it ever about defending ur religious beliefs.

its just that, for me anyway, as i am a catholic, i can give more examples regarding the christian faith, and as the christian faith is one of the most influential, if not the most influential religion on this earth, many ppl have more knowledge about it than other religions. but as i said before, its not just the christian faith we are discussing, but also the extremist of the islamic faith etc etc..

there was no need to declare this a christian bashing thread... (maybe i didnt sense of sarcasm...) :glug:

[hisashiluv14]

Uh, well, okay, hypocrisy in other religions: Monks in Laos/Cambodia make no bones about smoking.

That's about all I can think of right now.

And it's not even like smoking is some mortal sin akin to paedophilia or anything. Sure, it bloody irritates me, but I wouldn't castrate a smoker the way I would a paedophile.

[lee hom x3]

i'm atheist. i will not be swayed. ever.

and trust me people have tried. many many people, missionaries from the Church, some random people from my school who decide that i'm not moral. but i am. i don't need something [doctrines] telling me that.. killing is a sin. no duh. however, saying that i would like to say that religion does help some people.

it helps people believe that there's a reason to live, and actually it helps people become less afraid of death. i think that's the main point of religion.

i also think that religion started out so incredibly corrupt. sorry to keep going on about the Church but it was extremely corrupt especially during Medieval times. and renaissance times. and the reformation. all it did was try to get money and become powerful, which it did. i think that it has gotten a bad name because of the catholic priests who were molesters, but honestly most religious people aren't like that. sure they're a little blinded by this idea of "god" but they usually follow the good rules like not killing people.. not stealing..

its kind of funny that i'm defending religion since i am very anti-god or higher being. if this ever leaked out i would never hear the end of it from some very-Christian people.. *sigh*

[nevets1219]

Personally I'm not for any form of religion unless they have actual truths based in it rather than "belief". I myself much prefer a way of life. I have been to church (Evangelist for 3+ years, Baptist for 4 years) as well as Buddist temple (also to visit as a child).

Organized religion doesn't seem to work too well (much like how Communism doesn't seem to work). The ideas and ideals of organized religion makes it tempting. A priest/minister/other person to spread more knowledge about a religion in the attempt to guide a person to the right path. But in the end it doesn't seem that way. People find it comforting to see other people agree with them (such as seeing other people in church). It provides a "mob mentality" even though there are definitely times when that is good (such as the recent Tsunami - churches collecting donations).

Organized religion is another pointless burecracy that one has to deal with. If you truly wanted to believe there is nothing stopping you from doing so. A burercracy needs a leader at the top which involves power and corruption. The scary thing is that there are devoted followers below willing to do anything (such as the terrorists). So many lives have been claimed by organized religion (the Inquistion, terrorists) but they too have saved lives. So it comes down to : Would you be willing to save lives and kill people at the same time or would you prefer to not interfere at all? The first is definitely in favor of organized religion and the latter states that organized religion is not needed.

[lattae]

Wow, yet another christian bashing thread :excited: We are so happy at bashing up the christians here aren't we? :dry:

I just want to state my own apprehension about organised religion, even tho' I am in a church myself. How shall I put this... (it's hard to explain) but I never saw the church as a place that we commit ourselves to under a leadership of another human (or group of people). If the "holy bible" is of any truth, one of the first things we would realise is that man cannot lead man. (man=human... includes females of course, will address the whole gender discrimination another day). Fallible man have no right to "play god". It's like blind leading the blind. We'll get nowhere. Church is supposed to a place like minded people gather to encourage each other in the faith, it's not meant for "believers" to stifle one another with their interpretation of the bible, and their personal convictions thereof.

One of the biggest problems with churches as an organisation is that people take whatever "man" say as truths... People just follow because hey, it's the pastor/priest/pope etc, they can't go wrong. Since this thread has all the bashing references to the holy bible. Let me then pick out something from the bible did say about this "topic", Paul (one of the apostles) wrote in his epistles to the early church, and warned them of "wolves in sheeps clothing" among them. Man exploit churches for their selfish purposes... Which is why churches turned into fertile ground for politics.

On the same note Judes made a good point:
i think the problem with organized religion these days is that people don't understand why they believe what they believe, and what they actually do believe. they listen to all of these things said by the society, their churches, and they blindly follow what has been taught. i am ashamed of so called christians actually, who act in ways that are not following the bible that they are preaching as the ultimate truth at all.
To these people: Hello... wakey wakey!!! Is it God you are following or human...

Anyway, just as Christians have misconceptions about what they are following. The non-christians also have misconceptions about what they think christianity is. See the down side of "organised religion" now. Doesnt' just affect who's in it, but also who's out of it. People outside just look and think what they "see"/"interpret" from the "organised" sources. I don't think anyone here really went to read the holy books throughly to see for themselves what they are "against". Instead they look at "general interpretation", and accept to most parts what people of similar standpoint (atheist) have as arguements.


Quoting Judes again

to the example that alby brought up about his christian friend, i personally believe that being a christian isn't about trying to find some comfort in life, to find hope in a God. it's a lot more than that. it's a way of life, it's a way of thought. you aren't a christian just because you believe in Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, that's the first step, there's a long, long way to go.
I don't even want to go on about how irritating it is when people make sweeping statments that "all religions are the same, they teach people to do good, teach moral values, have hope, be less afraid of death, find purpose in their life" etc. Seriously frustrating when people make generalisations. Building on a point Judes brought up, Christianity (as far as I comprehend), is nothing like that... okay perhaps on the "finding purpose" issue there is some truth, but the rest is pure crap. Christianity is about getting to know God, and have a personal relationship with him. (the way of life as judes put it) The "do good" are more like by products, or "results" if you like, but not central theme. And if someone tells you christianity promises you lots of blessings from God (money, success etc) to entice you into the religion, you can tell the person that its B*llshit. The bible never taught that, but eager churches preach that. In fact, many of the biblical characters have a tough life, and they are supposed to be God's favourite.


My share said and done... I'd just like to address some fallacies that you guys have brought up in the course of this discussion, based on the doctrine (and my understanding thereof) of chistianity (sad to know, most attacks are based on christianity)

A man has the ability and capacity to repent, but he is currently evil.
Erm, I don't think the statment you made us biblically correct... are you sure you know what you are talking about? (I picked it up only because you've made biblical reference)

It's ironic, though, that groups like Christians can claim themselves to be all about peace and love Well, then those Christians are hypocrites. Bible teaches that no man is capable of true peace/love. It's people/interpretation that is in the wrong, don't make it sound as if the "religion" is that way.

When Lot was running away from Soddom and Gomorrah, apparently he turned to offer the crowd to rape his twelve daughters. But for some reason, God wasn't pissed off about that "Apparently"? Sounds like a weak reference here... And well, how do you know that God wasn't pissed, you don't happen to be Him right?

It is assumed that the Jews banned eating pork not because God said so, but because they did not have refrigeration or preservation techniques to keep it sanitary.
Okay... if I go by what you say, the Jews can't have meat then. Meat have the same needs for refrigeration/preservation you know. And they do sort of apply across the board. What are your sources, I am doubting the credibility. I am not too familiar with the exact jewish law that says that, but your arguement itself makes little sense at the moment.

why dont these ppl just tell their children to study harder??? relying on god to live ur life is one of the stupidest notions of religion. for everything an individual achieves during their life time, it is because they have worked hard for it.. not because god gave it to them.. as they say, u make ur own luck. So are you saying that people fail just because they don't work hard enough? What do you say to people who've worked really hard but never gor the results they deserve? You may argue it's the "situation" but who then dictates the situation? I am not sure it's yourself you know.

Why do I thank an invisible non-being for the food on my table when my mom was the one who cooked it?
You don't see air, it exists. You don't see gravitation/magnetism, it exists. Not everything can be seen dear. Just because it's not visible, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

the Church claims that the world is 10,000 years old. EVERYONE knows it's not 10,000 years old
Okay, where is your reference that points to the fact that the world is in fact more than 10 000 years old? I am interested. Since I have not seen proof of it yet.

Those who look for strength in a higher being ignore themselves.
Which is why I believe that there is NO SUCH THING as atheism. Because at the heart of atheism, it's a belief in which people think they are the God/Master of their life.


Just as an ending off note...
It's common for younger people to be against religion. With all the ambition, energy, opportunity... what's better than being the master of their own lives? Notice how all the people who have strong opinions are in general young, and are currently in relative success... and probably have a bright future (or what seems like it) before them.

It's like if you ask young girls whether they want to get married, have kids. Most of them'd scream no and shove the idea aside right away. They want to have careers, have freedom, etc etc. what have you nots. Just go as the slightly older ladies (those in twenties or above), even those in our forums... really, they dream to have a good guy to settle down with. Even the most capable single women will at one point of their lives want a companion. It's innate, few escape it.

Back to religion... People usually come to realisation that they are not in control of everything as life goes on, and set backs kicks in. (note I said usually). Which is why many older folks have a "religion" so to speak. Talk to me again when you are 60.