Jay's name pronounciation

[Jay luver]

Ok. I always said "Jay Chou" like this: Jay "Chow" but you no in his song "Dui Bu Qi (sorry)"? When he says "Jay Chou" he says: Jay "Choe" so wat is it? Can someone tell me? I no this is probably a dumb question since we're supposed 2 be his fans and this is a basic, but just making sure!

[kahel]

Hi Jay Luver!

well, actually I'm just basing my reply with my little knowledge on Pinyin and Chinese, since Jay's last name is Zhou, it's pronounce as "joe" in english. Taiwanese Pinyin for it would have to be Chou, and is pronounced as the "choe"/"joe". It's definitely not "chow". :happy:

Let's ask the Chinese experts on this forum for this.

[jayx8318x]

Yeah this has been asked lots of time before, I should put it in the FAQ.
Basically
Cantonese : CHOW
Mandarin : CHOU (joe)
Taiwanese: ZHOU (choe)

Something like that...
And since Jay is from Taiwan, the correct pronounciation is ZHOU, since that is what he calls himself as well.

[vunsin]

:sweat: Actually...

Cantonese: CHOW
Mandarin:
1) hanyu pinyin (China): ZHOU
2) Wade-Giles (Taiwan): CHOU

CHOU and ZHOU are actually pronounced the same way: joe
They're just spelled differently because Taiwan and China uses two different romanization systems.

[jayx8318x]

wth was I thinking. I've known it all along as CHOU, even the site is jay-CHOU.net
...so the common spelling is CHOU not ZHOU according to Jay...

Are they really pronounced the same? Cuz sometimes I here the Chou like it's spelt, and in Zhou I hear the "Z" sound more prominently.

[vunsin]

Yes, Jay's official name (according to his passport, IDs, etc.) should be Chou Chieh Lun because he's Taiwanese. Chinese (China) reports normally romanize his name as Zhou Jie Lun according to the hanyu pinyin system.

Chou and Zhou should be pronounced the same. I don't know why some people pronounce them differently. :rolleyes: I think it might be the different "accents" of Mandarin between Chinese and Taiwanese.

[jakinni]

They're pronounced the same in Chinese, but when you say Jay Chou in English, it takes on the English-ization of Chinese names. It's pronouced as "joe" if you say his Chinese name, but in English it's "chu" or something like that. I think it's less difference if you use the Zhou version in saying Jay's English name, which of course, is not official.

[angiex83]

=X haha.. over where i go to school.. almost everyone calls him jay chow =X i guess it's the abc/english way? haha i duno =X

[vunsin]

Yes, obviously native English speakers can't pronounce Chinese names like Xi, Qi, Zhang, Wen, etc. correctly. :rolleyes:

[jayx8318x]

but in English it's "chu" or something like that.

I say it like "CHO" as in Margaret Cho. Sounds like the beginning of the word "choke"

[jakinni]

:hmm: I always pronouce it as "chu" as in "chew" Hmm, now that you've given a different version, I don't know anymore. I figured the chu is just the more common English version of that name. "cho" sounds more Chinese pronounciation to me.

[vunsin]

I've never heard people pronounced it "chu." That's weird. That's a different last name already. :sweat: It's a different Chinese character. Like... Ken Chu of F4. "Joe" or "cho" would be as close as you could get.

[jayx8318x]

Are you serious? I thought you meant cho but spelled it as chu, I didn't think you really meant as in "chew" ...I've never heard anyone here call him that. It's most commonly CHOW like angiex83 said. But I've always said it as "cho" since the day I discovered him...cuz I mean the spelling is c-h-o-u ... why would you pronounce it "chow" ...

[jakinni]

Yeah, I hear the Chu last name and the Zhou last name pronounced the same. Heck, this is getting more complicated than I thought! :sweat:

[vunsin]

Well... you could have endless arguments about how you've HEARD the name being pronounced by non-Chinese speakers, but the truth is, there are only so many ways to write and pronounce his name, and I've already listed them in my first post in this thread.

[jakinni]

Are you serious? I thought you meant cho but spelled it as chu, I didn't think you really meant as in "chew" ...I've never heard anyone here call him that. It's most commonly CHOW like angiex83 said. But I've always said it as "cho" since the day I discovered him...cuz I mean the spelling is c-h-o-u ... why would you pronounce it "chow" ...
I guess I'm the only one then? Maybe I've been doing it all wrong all this time. I actually prefer to say it using the Chinese version (joe), but when I introduce him to English speakers, it's just easier to use the chu. But regarding Chou pronounced as Chow, I've Cantonese friend whose got the same last name and it's spelt Chou but pronouced Chow. I don't know why it's spelled Chou in the first place.

[vunsin]

I've Cantonese friend whose got the same last name and it's spelt Chou but pronouced Chow.
That's because it doesn't matter how you romanize/spell the name. In Cantonese, it's still supposed to be pronounce CHOW.

I don't know why it's spelled Chou in the first place.
Sometimes people ended up getting their names spelled differently when they immigrate to another country.

[jayx8318x]

haha "chew" Jie Lun, yeah we would all like a piece of Jay...
They should've just made it "Zo" ... Jay Zo.
haha solves everyone's problems.

[jakinni]

Yes, it's the "C" at the beginning that makes it so confusing.

So the lesson is Chinese names in English don't get good results.

[vunsin]

Well... Chinese people have no trouble pronouncing his name the way it's spelled. :) Or maybe I should say Chinese-literate people? :rolleyes:

It won't make sense for Chinese people to tell native English speakers that they should spell certain English words in a way that would make it easier for Chinese people to pronounce them, so why should English speakers ask that of the Chinese? :wink2:

[jakinni]

You're right about that. I just meant that if it was spelled in the Hanyu Pinyin way, I think there'd be less confusion and less diversion from the proper pronounciation because there's less commonality with English words. Perhaps I'm just more used to Hanyu PY and whenever I see the Wades-Giles spelling, it's more confusing.

[archywizard]

HI there,
I think it is not a problem whether you pronounce the "Jay Chou" as long as you are his fan. But there would be a great problem pronouncing mistakenly when you're no longer a fan 'cause his fans might smack you down for pronouncing his name wrongly. Why there's no problem when you're his fan? 'Cause his fans would think that whatever you pronounce his name, you pronounce it in admiration. It's like when u pronounce LOPZ for J.Lopez. Isn't it? :rolleyes:
Ok. I always said "Jay Chou" like this: Jay "Chow" but you no in his song "Dui Bu Qi (sorry)"? When he says "Jay Chou" he says: Jay "Choe" so wat is it? Can someone tell me? I no this is probably a dumb question since we're supposed 2 be his fans and this is a basic, but just making sure!

[vunsin]

Actually, I think the Wade-Giles pinyin would make more sense to non-Chinese speakers. I mean, most people have no idea how to pronounce Chinese words that start with Q, X, or Z.

[wackycashew]

whoa... i never heard of the 'chu/chew' thing... :glug: that's definitely incorrect even if you're trying to make it more english-sounding. :sweat:

anyway, the zhou/chou (joe) should be pronounced the same in chinese cuz it's the same chinese character but with a different form of romanization. if you say jay's last name in english, it'd sound like 'cho' (choe). that's cuz you're speaking english. saying jay joe would be weird. i wouldn't say my own last name in chinese pronunciation when speaking english either. :wacko: the 'chow' pronunciation is so popular for a number of reasons. for one thing, the same chinese character for zhou/chou is pronounced as chow in cantonese. jay has many fans in HK and around the world who speak cantonese. so, it's an easy error to make. secondly, chow is easier to pronounce than cho. hence, oftentimes you'd hear ABCs, CBCs, etc. pronounce jay's last name as chow.

all in all, jay himself pronounces it as 'cho', and that is indeed the correct way to say it when you're speaking english.

[jakinni]

Actually, I think the Wade-Giles pinyin would make more sense to non-Chinese speakers. I mean, most people have no idea how to pronounce Chinese words that start with Q, X, or Z.
Haha, then it would force them to find out the proper way instead of making something up that sounds more right in English.

Lisa, Well since all 3 of you say so then I guess I've been in the wrong all this time, I stand corrected. Will switch to "cho" from now on. :sweat:

archywizard, but if you're a fan and you don't know how to pronounce it properly, doesn't that make you not as big of a fan as you should be? Hmm, which seems to be my case now. :sweat::shy:

[jayx8318x]

HI there,
I think it is not a problem whether you pronounce the "Jay Chou" as long as you are his fan. But there would be a great problem pronouncing mistakenly when you're no longer a fan 'cause his fans might smack you down for pronouncing his name wrongly. Why there's no problem when you're his fan? 'Cause his fans would think that whatever you pronounce his name, you pronounce it in admiration. It's like when u pronounce LOPZ for J.Lopez. Isn't it? :rolleyes:


hmmm...I don't think it's the same...pronouncing Lopez as lopz or whatever is kind of like a pet name. In this case, it would be like people pronouncing it Luupez or something. No one ever pronounces Jay's name as Chow or Chu or Chou as "admiration" they pronounce it cuz that's the way they think it's pronounced.

If we did it out of admiration, it would be Jay Chou-ey or Chewie or something ...cute.

[xiaoli]

haha.. this thread cracks me up for some reason.. we're all debating something so seemingly simple.. yet we all have different views

I've always pronounced it as "chow" and I thought that's how everyone else pronounced it?! It's strange realising now that you guys have always referred to this site at "jay cho dot net".. it's always been "jay chow dot net" to me.

Anyway, just listened to Dui Bu Qi.. I'm with ya jakinni. :blush:

[jakinni]

xiaoli :hugz: I feel not totally alone now. :sweat:

Anyway, even though I've always known the "Jay Cho" in the song Dui Bu Qi, but I've just always thought that's the way he says it since he's not an English speaker and wouldn't English-ize it the way we would.

[cync.jay]

well...different place has different pronounciation like mine, my chinese surname is the same as J..but as i am in malaysia and my dialect is Hakka..it's spelt as Chew..cause in Hakka, zhou is pronnounced as chew...funny is..my aunts and uncles have different spellings too..some chiew or chow....so....because english is not mandarin...of course there will be error or many version when translating a word!!!just remember it's jay chou..not jay chow... i really hate those ppl who spells his name wrongly

[jayx8318x]

You call this place jay CHOW dot net? haha that's like a new concept to me. In fact, if someone told me to go to jay dash CHOW dot net, I would be like "hey cool, is that a new site?"

[wackycashew]

haha... i have a friend whose last name is Chu and has a nickname of Chewy. it's cute. :tongue: but yeah... having a pet name and saying what you think something sounds like is a bit different.

it's ok, jakinni. we all make mistakes and learn from them. :console:

Haha, then it would force them to find out the proper way instead of making something up that sounds more right in English.
well, the thing is... people who don't know the chinese language would be pronouncing the words using what they know from their own language. it's cuz different languages consist of different sounds. so, it's really hard to expect people to say something in 'the proper way' cuz it might still be slightly off, i.e. get the wrong tone or can't pronounce the 'r' sound or some consonant. people use what they know to pronounce another language. i hear people saying Chung instead of Cheung, Li-ung instead of Leung, etc. they just can't get the right sound cuz it's not a sound that's in their language. so, if they make it more english-sounding, it's understandable. but if possible, they should be informed of the correct pronunciation so that they have a chance to try to make the right sound. i think i'm more annoyed when i hear chinese people who are born in a non-asian country pronounce their own last names wrong instead of a caucasian person doing it.

and the way the last names are romanized are not just a mere means of making something that sounds more right in english. i think there's some sort of history behind all this and that's why you can usually identify whether a chinese person is from china/taiwan/hong kong based on their last names. it's different systems and one is not more right than the other.

[kahel]

At least it's "chu" Here in the Philippines, F4 got so famous that you can hear their names everywhere, but Zai Zai, who has the same family name as Jay, is often referred to as Vic "Zu". Yes, even TV personalities pronounced it at "Zu". Doesn't even bother to research. :rolleyes:

[jakinni]

Lisa, ah yes, you're so diplomatic. :happy: I agree that although it's hard for non-Chinese speakers to get the correct pronounciation all the time, but instead of trying to show them the correct way, it's appropriated by the Chinese person themselves in how they pronouce their name themselves. (ie. yeung=young) Although I don't really like that, but I still do it too just in this case with my use of "chu".

Anyway, I think at the end of the day, regardless of how different dialects pronouce the same word, when saying a person's name, it's just always best to pronouce it the way they would themselves in their native dialect.

[xiaoli]

Everyone I know with a Chinese last name has always pronounced it the English way. Like, the Leungs would introduce themselves as "Li-ung", the Cheungs would pronounce it as "Chung", and the Zhous would pronounce it as "Zu".. I've always considered that the norm since they're living in a western country, cuz if they pronounced it the way they normally did in their native language, it wouldn't be easy for people who didn't speak their language to pronounce. Same with me, I KNOW how to say "Leung" in Cantonese, but I would still call them Ms. "Li-ung".

What I've always wondered is how to say Nic Tse's last name in English though.. my non-chinese friends have asked me that and I just shrug and say I always pronounce it the Chinese way. One of my friends used to tell me it was "Teese" (soft S).. me -> :glug:

[jayx8318x]

What I've always wondered is how to say Nic Tse's last name in English though.. my non-chinese friends have asked me that and I just shrug and say I always pronounce it the Chinese way. One of my friends used to tell me it was "Teese" (soft S).. me -> :glug:

Without ever hearing anyone pronounce it (that I can remember), I say it as "Se" kinda like "say" but shortened.

[jakinni]

I've never heard it pronouced before either. Nic Thanks? :laughing:

[dazzlette]

Wasn't the Wade-Giles system invented by a Westerner? He invented the system to try to approximate Chinese words to an equivalent in English. Even then many words did not exactly get romanised well. Like Beijing is Peking under the Wade-Giles system right? And the capital of Taiwan, is spelt Taipei under the Wade-Giles system (and internationally) but under the hanyu pinyin systen it would be Taibei. Personally I feel that hanyu pinyin romanises Mandarin words better. If a foreigner were to read Taibei as opposed to Taipei, Taibei actually sounds closer to what the words would actually sound like in Mandarin.


II would think the most accurate way of pronouncing his name would be in Mandarin or maybe even Taiwanese. It you know pinyin the most accurate way to prounounce it would be Jay Zhou I suppose. Does anyone know what 'Zhou' is in Taiwanese? Is it Chew? My impression is it sounds something like Cho. ( and that's why Jay pronounces it that way)

Among my own friends we refer to Jay as Jay Chou when we speak English but we usually prefer to call him Zhou Jie Lun.

[vunsin]

Actually, in the "correct" Cantonese pronunciation, Tse would sound more like the Chieh in Jay's name.

Peking is actually Cantonese. A lot of city names in China were romanized according to the Cantonese pronunciations before they invented the hanyu pinyin system.

[dazzlette]

My Cantonese isn't very good but isn't 'bei" (north) pronounced more like 'bak' in Cantonese? I'm quite sure Peking is the Wales-Giles system, cos I read somewhere about it before.

[vunsin]

But beijing in Wade Giles romanzation would be "peiching" whereas in Cantonese it'd be "bek-king." Maybe it's an older version of the Wade Giles pinyin? :?

[Jay luver]

thkz for all the replys but @ skool everyone calls him "Chow", but he said "Cho" & now it looks "Zhou" & i think it's definetly NOT "Chew" so yeah. maybe lots of versions? If anyone finds out cuz you heard him say LIVE tell me k? thkz

[wackycashew]

errr... i've always thought Peking was Cantonese. and Cantonese is not romanized by the actual sound. like my last name is Tang, and not Dang or Dung.

as for Nic Tse... it's not an exactly "see" sound. it's a combo of "t" + "s". if you pronounce those consonants together, you'd have your tongue slightly between your teeth or just at the back against your teeth, almost like a "th" sound except your tongue is lowered/flat and not raised. if you know japanese, it's like the "tsu" sound, except it'd be "tsi" (more tightened).

and i would never pronounce Leung as Li-ung or Cheung as Chung when i'm speaking english. i don't expect everyone to be able to pronounce it. but as a Cantonese speaker, i won't have it any other way cuz it's not like i can't pronounce it (whether or not it's a western norm). plus, Chung is a completely different last name, which is Zhong and Cheung is Zhang in han yu pin yin.

and "north" in Cantonese is "buck" without stressing the "k" sound... not so much "bak" or "bek". so, Beijing/Peking is pronounced as "buckging" in Cantonese.

[jayx8318x]

If anyone finds out cuz you heard him say LIVE tell me k? thkz

He's always said it Chou/Zhou (Cjoe) like we've said, he never says it Chow.

It's funny though, not to mention bugs the heck out of me, but I was talking to Seiichi, a native Chinese speaker, but when he talks about Jay in English, he calls him Jay CHOW too...urgh!! I just hate hearing that, even though it's not technically wrong. Chou just sounds....better in my opinion.

[vunsin]

and "north" in Cantonese is "buck" without stressing the "k" sound... not so much "bak" or "bek". so, Beijing/Peking is pronounced as "buckging" in Cantonese.
LOL... For some reason when I was romanizing "bei" in Cantonese, I kept thinking of the "be" like it's pronounced in "Berlin." That's why I put "bek." :bleh:


It's funny though, not to mention bugs the heck out of me, but I was talking to Seiichi, a native Chinese speaker, but when he talks about Jay in English, he calls him Jay CHOW too...urgh!! I just hate hearing that, even though it's not technically wrong. Chou just sounds....better in my opinion.
You mean native Chinese CANTONESE speaker or native Chinese MANDARIN speaker? :? That would make a big difference.

[dazzlette]

All this talk is giving me the sudden impulse to do research on chinese pronounciation and romanization. :hmm: I wonder what's the point of romanizing something if it doesn't try to fit the actual sound of the word. (Perhaps that's why we're having so much problems now)

Actually I think the sound I pronounce for 'bei' (north) in cantonese is the same as the one wacky described.. maybe I shouldn't have spelt it as 'bak' but really I know nuts about canto romanization.

Does anyone know how 周 is pronounced in Taiwanese? Is it something like 'cho'?

[invis]

Does anyone know how 周 is pronounced in Taiwanese? Is it something like 'cho'?

hehe let me try to help since i know both english and chinese... it's really funny how you guys can discuss about a few words for 3 pages...

Chinese word: 周杰伦

Hanyu Pinyin: Zhou1 Jie2 Lun2 --> zhou1 here is pronounced as 'joe' (that answers the qn on how 周 is pronounced by Taiwanese, or Chinese in general)

English: Jay Chou --> pronounce it as 'Cho' (as in, 'Cho Chang' in harry potter? or like someone else mentioned before, it's 'choke' without the 'ke' sound...)

'chow' sounds really weird... it's very... westernized. but perhaps it's easier for certain pple to pronounce it that way... but since the day i heard of jay's name, i've always used 'cho'... that's what people at my side use for pple with that sirname...

but don't we all just call him 'jay'? that makes things simpler... for me, i always say 'jay' or 'jie lun' when referring to him to my friends...

as for nic tse, i've always used the japanese way of pronoucing 'tsu'...

[Quiet Boy]

Ok, for me, the only thing I've ever heard him being called is jay "chow", and that was how I was introduced to him. I dunno, maybe its cos of all the cantonese people spreading his name. It sounds totally weird to have him called "cho" or anything else. Even him being called jay "zhou" (the actual chinese pronounciation) sounds weird to me.

Anyway chinese names are almost never accurately pronounced in English. Names like "Qiu" are pronounced "kiew" and "Hui" are pronounced "Hooi". Plus, theres different dialects of chinese from which names are derived, which make it even more confusing.

For example, once this teacher was marking the roll, and she asked me: "Who's that guy?" So I replied "Bob Hui" (The chinese pronounciation), and she said: "Huh? That name isnt on the roll!" I pointed to that guy's name, and she said "ohhh, Bob Hooi!" (btw, that guy's name wasnt really bob) So I'm just gonna keep on calling jay "chow" and all the other chinese names the "english" way when I speak english, and only use the correct chinese way when I actually speak chinese, in order to avoid confusion.

[ekyec]

yea...it never occurred to me that people call jay chou, jay 'cho'. i'm saying it outloud right now, n it sounds real weird to me. i'm cantonese, so i guess that's why i call him jay 'chow', but still i've never heard anyone say 'cho' before. n i also referred to this site as jay-'chow'.net too.

but i guess if you wanna say 'chou' in english..you may as well jus say it in chinese, n we may as well confuse westerners, n they can get learn n use to saying it properly(in chinese whether its the mando or canto way).
like russian/german/european last names r said how they are said in their language, n sounds totally different from how its spelt n they don't change it to make it easier for english speaking people to say.

after reading this thread. i kinda more confused to how to say my last name, which is cheung. i always say it the westernized weird sounding way[which in canto chung(chuuung), sounds like i'm saying my lastname is 'shallots'], i've also heard chuuurng, n chung. but now i guess i should say it in proper canto.

[steiffelephant]

i was also wondering about the pronounciation of the last of NG. i know some westerners and ABCs say 'ing', but in hong kong people say nnnnnng (which sounds really nasal). any comments?

[ekyec]

NG is supposed to be pronounced with the nasal sound but i tend to say a cross between hmm and nnnngg. in mandarin i think its suppose to be pronounced 'wu'.

the western way of pronouncing is probably jus the easiest alternative they could figure out for themselves, n they jus pretend to add n 'i' to the 'ng', so they get 'ing' which is a sound they always use n say.
i think they weren't really bothered to find out the real pronouniciation[as with many other chinese surnames] so they made it easier by overlooking that it is jus 'ng' n jus changed it to 'ing', to suit themselves..so they jus say it that way now, since it has gotten into their system.


[err..my chinese aint that good, so i might be totally off..but thats what i think..]

[invis]

yep, ng is pronounced with the nasal sound... as for mandrain, there is not only 'wu', but many others depending on what dialect group that person is from...

as for cheung, i'm really not sure... i say it as "cheng"... and it's funny how some people find 'cho' weird, while i find 'chow' weird... hahaz~

[jayx8318x]

You mean native Chinese CANTONESE speaker or native Chinese MANDARIN speaker? :? That would make a big difference.

MANDARIN speaker, Seiichi is Taiwanese, just like Jay. And he still pronounces it CHOW in English. From what I understand, alot of people use the term Chinese and Mandarin interchangeably. But when they mean Canto, they'll say Canto and not Chinese.

[vunsin]

I wonder what's the point of romanizing something if it doesn't try to fit the actual sound of the word.
Actually, they do fit how the words are supposed to be pronounced in Chinese IF you've learned proper Chinese. :wink2: Just look at the English language. There's no rule for pronunciation at all! So why don't people just change everything now? :rolleyes:

the western way of pronouncing is probably jus the easiest alternative they could figure out for themselves, n they jus pretend to add n 'i' to the 'ng', so they get 'ing' which is a sound they always use n say.
i think they weren't really bothered to find out the real pronouniciation[as with many other chinese surnames] so they made it easier by overlooking that it is jus 'ng' n jus changed it to 'ing', to suit themselves..so they jus say it that way now, since it has gotten into their system.
Actually, studies have shown that in general, English speakers can't pronounce words or syllables that start "ng" or "ny" because they're not part of the English language. Like "ngan" (which is also a Chinese last name) or some Malay words like "me-ngan-tuk" (sleepy) or "me-nya-pu" (sweeping). They'd end up pronouncing them as "men-gan-tuk" and "men-ya-pu."

From what I understand, alot of people use the term Chinese and Mandarin interchangeably. But when they mean Canto, they'll say Canto and not Chinese.
Which is sad, because that's a common misconception. They're both Chinese dialects, and just because one is more widely spoken doesn't make it more superior to the other (or any other Chinese dialects).

[azn_babii_gurl]

wow...this is gettin realli confusing~~~
lol i say his name the westernised way when i say it in english..ie jay chow..
but when i speak chinese(mandarin) i say his name the chinese way...
so confusing...lol its like a whole pronouncition lesson here

[xiaoli]

You guys know Andrew Chou, the little rapper aka Machi Didi? He pronounces his surname as "Chow". You hear it in one of his songs.. I think Tian Mi Mi? Probably because he grew up in the US and prefers to pronounce it the English way - Chow. honestly I've never heard anyone say Cho before.. and yeah, that is just strange to me. One of my friends (she's Viet) asked me.. shouldn't it be "Chu/Choo"? That's strange to me too.

Since Jay's only familiar with the Chinese language, he says it as Jay "Zhou". I guess it's just up to the person who bears the name. But anyway.. I've known Jay as Jay "Chow" for 3+ years already.. he'll always be Jay "Chow" to me.

[petheads]

First song I heard when I bought my first Jay album: Dui Bu Qi (Sorry).

So I've always thought of Jay as Jay Chou since that's the way he pronounces it. It irritated me quite a bit when some salesman was trying to promote his concert tix and was tried too hard to add some sophisticated slang to his "Jay ChAu".

It's strange, I never think of Jay as Jay Chow, only Chow Kit Lun. To me, he's Zhou Jielun, Jay Chou or Chow Kit Lun.

[vunsin]

You guys know Andrew Chou, the little rapper aka Machi Didi? He pronounces his surname as "Chow".
Yes, actually, I think I did bring him up as an example earlier. :) But maybe not in this thread. I think when we were discussing that radio program featuring Jay, David Tao, and other Chinese artistes.

EDIT: Okay, I lot of people have been wondering how CHOU is pronounced in Taiwanese/Hokkien/Minnan, so I've looked it up. It's pronounced CHIU (sounds like CHEW).

[Jay luver]

yeah Machi Didi i almost forgot about him! Then i think it's "Chow" then. hmmm. It's sounds more "right" to me? i dunno. maybe there're different ways? who knows? Maybe we should ask the people @ Alfamusic.com?

[vunsin]

yeah Machi Didi i almost forgot about him! Then i think it's "Chow" then. hmmm. It's sounds more "right" to me? i dunno. maybe there're different ways? who knows? Maybe we should ask the people @ Alfamusic.com?
*sigh* Have you even read the earlier posts in this thread. :? The correct Chinese pronunciation for Jay's last name is CHOU/ZHOU in Mandarin, and CHOW in Cantonese. English speakers pronounce it CHOW regardless because:
a) They couldn't be bothered to get it right.
b) They can't pronounce the word CHOU correctly no matter how hard they try.
c) All of the above.

[wackycashew]

thanks for the info, vun. and referring back to what invis posted, Taiwanese is not Chinese. we're talking about Hokkien. and Chinese is commonly used as reference to Mandarin. but we should distinguish it in our discussion here so that it's not so confusing.

and what you guys said about NG is true. should be pronounced the nasal way, but usually pronounced as 'ing' by westerners cuz they'd have difficulty saying NG in the correct way. (just like they say 'chow' instead of 'cho' for CHOU, they'd say 'ing' instead of 'nnng' for NG.) in addition to the examples that vunsin provided, you may also hear the Vietnamnese last name Nguyen being pronounced as 'nu-yen' by westerners. the correct pronunciation should be more like 'nnng-oo-win' (starting with the nasal and spoken quickly, not in 3 parts).

CHEUNG is not Chung or Cheng simply cuz those are other Chinese last names. it's more like 'churng', but your lips when producing the 'ch' sound would be farther apart and more forward than the english word 'churn'.

and TSE is definitely not pronounced as 'tsu', but more like 'tsi'.

as for the romanization system, i don't remember what the origin was, but i think the Cantonese one for last names was done by the perception of the sounds by westerners. historically, Chinese people didn't have english names. so, the romanization came about later. anyway, i don't know how it's done exactly cuz i do my own Cantonese romanization. if i'm doing romanization for a song, let's say, i'd rather have it be as accurate to the actual sound as possible. but for something like someone's last name, that's not quite the same case cuz the last name actually reflects the person's identity. there are reaons why chinese names that are the same in chinese are different in 'english'. i'll just illustrate with some examples:

Cantonese (Hong Kong)/Mandarin (Taiwan)/Mandarin (China)/[Vietnamese (Vietnam)]

Chan/Chen/Chen/[Tran]
Tang/Teng/Deng/[Dang]
Choi/Tsai/Cai
Yeung/Yang/Yang
Cheung/Chang/Zhang
Chow (Chau)/Chou/Zhou
Tsui/Hsu/Xu
Lau/Liu/Liu
Siu/Hsiao/Xiao
Cheng/Cheng/Zheng

as you can seen, the way your last name is romanized actually provides some information about where you're from or what your roots are. even if they happened to be pronounced the same in Chinese (as in the case with the Mandarin), you can still distinguish where the person originates. this info is not 100% accurate, of course. but it's a fairly good indicator.

anyway, i personally think that it's your own choice how you wanna pronounce the words in 'english'. but at least, you'd be aware of how it should actually be pronounced even if you don't say it that way. people opt for different pronunciations for various reasons: ease of pronunciation, different audiences, etc.

[vunsin]

The "problem" with Cantonese romanization is that there's no one or two widely used and known form compared to Mandarin (with hanyu pinyin and Wade Giles).

Here are some links:
http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi/directory.php?query=/Chinese/Language/Cantonese

Actually, if you look at Hakka (kejia), it's even more confusing. There are so many types of Hakka being spoken (in Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, Malaysia, etc.). According to chinalanguage.com, the most common ones are Siyan, MacIver, Sathewkok, Bao'an, Hailu, Lufeng, Meixian, Dongguan, and Lau Chunfat. I'm Hakka, but I don't even know which Hakka I speak. :wacko:

[hisashi]

Wow. Interesting. I think the most confusing dialect/language would be Hakka. Yup, my grand-father speaks Hakka Teochew which I dun even know what he's talking abt! :wacko:

Anyways, back to the topic. Chou is the correct pronunication. CHI-OU - Chou if u can search for the Pinyin pronounication (which Taiwan uses it) / ZHI-OU - Zhou for Hanyu Pinyin pronunication.

[vunsin]

Anyways, back to the topic. Chou is the correct pronunication. CHI-OU - Chou if u can search for the Pinyin pronounication (which Taiwan uses it) / ZHI-OU - Zhou for Hanyu Pinyin pronunication.
See? That's the problem. :sweat: When you put CHI, Americans would pronounce it CHEE, so CHOU ends up being pronounced CHEW according to your instructions. :sweat:

[xiaoli]

Exactly.. there's no point in giving written instructions like that.. cuz different people will perceive it differently. Some people might read the "ou" sound as "oh", some might read it as "ow", some might read it as "oo"!

[hisashi]

Well.. u have to search for the pinyin or hanyu pinyin pronounication isnt it? i suppose they have a thingy to let u hear whats the pronounication? of cos in writing it will be all useless unless u go a further step to look for the pronounication.

[vunsin]

Yeah... but when you try to teach someone to pronounce a word, you should always provide a guide according to how he/she would read it in his/her language, not how YOU would read it in your language, because he/she doesn't know HOW to read it in your language! Like, instead of CHI-OU (which would end up being pronounced as CHEW by English speakers, since CHI in English is pronounced CHEE), you should've said CHO-OH (which would end up being more closely pronounced as CHOU).

[wackycashew]

Yeah... but when you try to teach someone to pronounce a word, you should always provide a guide according to how he/she would read it in his/her language, not how YOU would read it in your language, because he/she doesn't know HOW to read it in your language!
Actually, I don't really agree with this. When you're learning a new language, you should learn the system or how to pronounce the sounds in that language. If you only learn how to read it in your own language, you'd never completely master the sounds cuz those sounds may not be part of your own language. Of course, it's helpful if you try to mimic the sound by constructing your own mnemonic with your own language. But eventually, you should be able to read the new language with its own system.

For example, to learn Mandarin, a good starting point is to learn the phonetic alphabet (either the han yu pin yin system if you prefer romanization or the 'bo po mo fo' characters); to learn Japanese, you should master the basic sounds by learning the hiragana and move onto learning how to write hiragana, katakana, and eventually kanji; to learn Spanish, you should learn the alphabet and how to pronounce it; and to learn English, you'd want to start with the alphabet.

Basically, I think that when you learn a new language, the ultimate goal would probably be to be able to speak that language fluently, thinking in that language when you speak it, and pronouncing the words as accurately as possible. Even though you might find it helpful to construct your own system of pronunciation (based on the language that you know) to help you produce the sounds, eventually, you should break free from that and be able to pronounce the words in the new language without help from your own language. So, in the case of Mandarin, once you've learned han yu pin yin and how those sounds should be pronounced (perhaps with the help of your self-constructed English romanization), when you encounter new words, you should be able to produce the sounds accurately based on the han yu pin yin system and not on your self-made system. Otherwise, I think you'd always be held back from achieving full mastery of the language because you're constantly using your own language to learn the new language instead of just using it in the initial phase and eventually relying on your knowledge of the new language to help you make progress in your language learning.

And I'm not just talking about foreign languages. Even with English, if someone who doesn't speak English wants to learn it. He/She would have to start at the basics. For instance, learning the alphabet, the spelling of words, the pronunciation of various letter groupings, etc. In the beginning, there may be a lot of dictionary usage (i.e., English-Chinese, English-Portuguese, English-Spanish, etc.) depending on what the student's native tongue is. As time passes by, however, one would hope that he/she would be able to use an English-English dictionary to look up the meaning of new words. And better yet, to learn different strategies of language-learning, such as guessing words from context, listening for keywords in a sentence, paying attention to intonation, etc.

Anyway, going back to my original point. I personally think that when you try to teach someone how to pronounce a word in your language, you should say it accurately in terms of how you would pronounce it in your language. If he/she so desires, he/she can write down the pronunciation based on his/her own language to help with the memorization process. I don't think it's necessary to provide a guide on how to read the word in his/her language. Instead, you should provide a guide on the pronunciation system of your own language, especially if there is a standardized system (e.g. han yu pin yin). After introducing the sounds, hopefully after time has been invested in studying them, the person would be able to make the transmission from relying on mnemonics based on his/her own language to accurately producing the sounds in the new language based on the target language. While it's easier to provide the pronunciation in his/her own language, it'd probably be better to educate him/her on how to pronounce the word accurately in the target language in the long run.

[vunsin]

Actually, I don't really agree with this. When you're learning a new language, you should learn the system or how to pronounce the sounds in that language.
Yeah... but I'm not even talking about THAT far ahead. I was merely saying, if somebody has no desire whatsoever to learn Mandarin but would like to know how to pronounce Jay's last name correctly (which was one of the original purposes of this thread), there'd be no point trying to teach him/her how the hanyu pinyin works, especially not in the current setting. He/she won't be able to hear you pronounce the word and thus would have no opportunity of writing the pronunciation down in his/her own language after hearing the correct pronunciation in Chinese. Wouldn't it be easier for that person to FIRST learn how to pronounce CHOU correctly without creating further confusion?

Besides, if you really want to teach someone the proper way of pronouncing a word with hanyu pinyin or any other systems, at least be more informative. It won't help to ONLY say that CHOU is pronounced CHI-OU without giving any other guide. I only knew it because I know hanyu pinyin, but if I have no knowledge of Chinese at all, I'd have pronounced it CHEW. At least you should let people know that the CHI is according to hanyu pinyin and should not be pronounced as CHEE.

[wackycashew]

Yeah... but I'm not even talking about THAT far ahead. I was merely saying, if somebody has no desire whatsoever to learn Mandarin but would like to know how to pronounce Jay's last name correctly (which was one of the original purposes of this thread), there'd be no point trying to teach him/her how the hanyu pinyin works, especially not in the current setting.
What I was addressing was actually what hisashi initially brought up about referring to the pinyin systems for pronunciation. If all a person wants is to know the correct pronunciation of CHOU, then yeah... I'd just say CHO and that's the end of discussion. Of course there's no need to get into all the details I brought up. I was just following what you said about teaching someone a word, providing a guide, and how it's read. That went beyond the CHOU thing. So, I decided to share my thoughts on that topic. Otherwise, what's the point of providing a guide if that person doesn't want to do anything with it (reading it or writing it down in his/her language)?

Yeah, I agree with the second part. That's why I said you gotta learn the system first and go through the basic sounds as well as what sounds can go together. Otherwise, only learning the pronunciation of CHOU is useless. If I had no knowledge of hanyu pinyin, I'd probably say CHU. But the thing is, CHOU shouldn't be pronounced with hanyu pinyin cuz the CHI is actually ZHI in hanyu pinyin since the equivalent of CHOU is ZHOU. So, in this case, the guide should be the Wades-Giles system of pronuncing CHI accurately instead of saying CHEE.

[vunsin]

But in the end, despite the various methods we've tried, what do you think the final results would be like? :rolleyes: Right now, people are still confused and debating about the pronunciation. It doesn't matter that the few of us who know what we're talking about have tried to give a simple or comprehensive explanation. People are NOT listening to us. :rolleyes: They'll keep asking, and they'll keep saying, "Oh, I heard so and so pronouncing it this way, so it must be this way!" So what's the point, really? I guess I'm just so sick of this already at this point. I give up. All I'll say now is something like, "Hey, it's THIS, pronounce it THIS way and stop asking!" Sooner or later, this thread will be gone, and the same question will be asked again, and we'll start the "debate" again. This is not the first thread either. It'll never end.

[wackycashew]

Yeah, I know what you mean, Vun. :rolleyes: And what do I think the final results would be like? People will keep on saying CHOU in whichever way they've grown accustomed to, be it CHO, CHU, CHOW, etc. :rolleyes: It's hard to break a habit or something you've grown comfortable with, especially if you thought it was correct all along. Ah well... Can't say we didn't try to make them aware of this at least. :D And we got our dose of language discussion. Heehee... :happy:

[vunsin]

Yeah... and I thought this was where you were supposed to ask SIMPLE questions about Jay? :rolleyes: I can't believe we're now at page 5. Anyhow, it doesn't matter how WE argue. People would just do whatever they want to do in the end. It's not like they paid us to teach them Chinese or something. I won't be held responsible for their behavior and their inability to learn! :rolleyes:

[wackycashew]

I know... Guess we'd just have to continue to deal with the frustration. :cry: I enjoyed the discussion for the last 5 pages though. :D And I was almost inspired to made an audio recording so they'd actually know what I was talking about with all those different pronunciations of words. :rolleyes: But I was busy and tired and it just wasn't a convenient time to record a bunch of sounds acompanied by explanations. :bleh:

[vunsin]

Actually, we could just find a bunch of links, write a simple description, and post that as a sticky. As a matter of fact, I know where to find those links. :bleh:

[RyousukeFC]

yeap yeap... i prefer to call it zhou as its the chinese name zhou jie lun.... but i name my songs files as jay chou as its recognise internationally...

[vunsin]

Actually, Chou is not "recognized" internationally. It's just how Jay's name is spelled officially because that's the Taiwanese way of spelling it.

[dazzlette]

Actually, Chou is not "recognized" internationally. It's just how Jay's name is spelled officially because that's the Taiwanese way of spelling it.

Sorry but why is it not 'recognised' internationally? Is it cos Taiwan is not officially recognised either?

Oh vunsin thanks for finding out Zhou in taiwanese/hokkien/ min nan yu (what's the difference between the 3 of them anyway? they're fundamentally the same right?) for me.. I was kinda guessing it would be something like Chew...


And after reading wacky and vunsin's long discusion on languages.. I feel somewhat confused now.. I wonder how a simple question could have evolved into 6 pages of heated discusion... Maybe Jay shouldn't have had an english name.. just call him Zhou Jie Lun.. I wonder if it would have been easier.. then wacky could just create a sound clip on how to pronounce his name in mandarin and save us all this trouble..

[wackycashew]

Sorry but why is it not 'recognised' internationally? Is it cos Taiwan is not officially recognised either?
dazzlette, i think what vunsin meant is that jay's name is not that way because of international recognition. it's his official name in english. we all have our official names. it has nothing to do with international recognition. that's just the name our parents gave us and is written on our official documents. depending on your roots, some people may start with just the chinese name and have an english name later on. others have a chinese and english name from birth. so, that's what vunsin meant. it has nothing to do with taiwan being recognized or not cuz recognition is not even the issue.

i don't know taiwanese, so i can't address your second question.

And after reading wacky and vunsin's long discusion on languages.. I feel somewhat confused now.. I wonder how a simple question could have evolved into 6 pages of heated discusion... Maybe Jay shouldn't have had an english name.. just call him Zhou Jie Lun.. I wonder if it would have been easier.. then wacky could just create a sound clip on how to pronounce his name in mandarin and save us all this trouble..
heated discussion? :? i didn't find it heated. i thought it was a good discussion as different people offered their opinions and thoughts on the topic. no one was shooting anyone else down as far as i could tell. :unsure: anyway, why shouldn't jay have an english name? if he doesn't, that's his choice. but if he does, that's also his choice. a lot of chinese people have english names by birth or decide to have on later on. there's no reason for a chinese person not to have an english just so he can be addressed with his/her chinese name only (unless that's his/her preference). even if we call him Zhou Jie Lun, it doesn't work cuz 'zhou jie lun' is romanized based on hanyu pinyin. but jay's name is Chou Chieh Lun. so, there's always gonna be some sorta 'debate' on this cuz the only thing that's consistent is the actual chinese characters, which we can't expect everyone to learn how to read, right? but even then, there's a 'problem' cuz Taiwan (and other places) use the traditional chinese characters for writing whereas China (and other places) use the simplified form. there's just no easy way out.

one more thing... going back to what i said previously, the pronunciation of your romanized chinese last name is not necessarily meant to mirror the exact pronunciation in chinese. for instance, my last name is Tang. but obviously, it's not pronounced as Tang in Cantonese. if i go with the correct pronunciation, my last would be Dung. :glug: as i said before, the way your last name is romanized offers information about your place of origin and your background. it doesn't necessarily reflect how it should be pronounced in chinese.

[vunsin]

About Hokkien/Taiwanese/Minnan... to make it even more complicated, it can also be referred to as Taiyu, Amoy, Fujianese, Fukienese, Taigi, Taigu, Hoklo, etc. :sweat: In general sense, Hokkien and Minnan are interchangable terms.

Linguistically Hokkian is considered as part of Minnan language. Minnan is considered as a language group that consists of many dialects that some are easily intelligible to each other and some are harder. In its broadest sense, Minnan includes Teochew/Tiociu dialects and Hainan dialects beside Hokkian dialects.

Linguistically speaking, Taiwanese, or Taiyu as it is often called in Taiwan, is a dialect of Minnan or Southern Min. This is the language spoken in the south of Fujian Province in China where most Taiwanese trace their ancestry back to.

[dazzlette]

Oh man after reading your response wacky I feel even more confused... :wacko:

I think you misunderstood me... I'm not particularly articulate in expressing myself but I hope you can see where I'm coming from.. :happy:

When I typed 'Zhou Jie Lun' I meant that we should pronouce it the way the characters 周杰倫 are pronounced in Mandarin/Pu Tong Hua 普通話/Zhong Wen 中文.. the issue here is the correct pronounciation of Jay's name.. and if you were to pronounce his name in Mandarin/Pu Tong Hua 普通話/Zhong Wen 中文.. there wouldn't really be such a discussion right? Cos there is only one way of pronouncing it. Yes, some people may not be able to pronounce it exactly right cos the sounds might not present in their own language but in any case, it would be as close as it can get.

The discussion right now seems to lie more with what is the correct pronounciation Jay's surname, which is officially spelt as 'Chou'. I personally
would pronounce 'Chou' as more like 'Cho' but I have friends who pronounce it more like 'Chow' and it's not cos they are Cantonese speaking, it's just how they would read it in English. As far as I know, English doesn't have fixed pronounciation rules for various combinations of letters (linguists out there please correct me) and so we can't really say there is a right or wrong way of pronouncing it.

I agree with you on your surnames reflecting where you come from. That's why I like my surname, Chan. Some people in Singapore have chosen to adopt han yu pin yin names instead of keeping their own dialect surnames. The effect is that 2 people from totally different ancestral backgrounds end up with the same surname. for eg Tan and Chan are both 陳 (Chen).

Ok I take back what I said about Jay having an english name, you're right.. it's his choice anyway. If his surname was 李 (Lee/Li) perhaps we would have less problems? (then we'll probably discuss on whether it should be Lee or Li :wacko: )

btw, I do think that this has been an interesting discusion.. when I said 'heated' I meant it as an active discusion with all kinds of opinions being shared and not one where people are getting mad and disagreeing with each other..


Vunsin, so Minnan language is the broad term for all these dialects right? (including Teochew and Hainan) But why is it that Hokkien people in general can understand Taiwanese better while the Teochew and Hainan people can't? I asked my mother (who's a Hokkien from Malaysia) about the differences and she says she can basically understand what is said in Taiwanese but there are certain terms which still differ. Are these the cultural differences that have built up over the years or are these 2 groups of from different regions?

[vunsin]

dazzlette: The "problem" is, there are different versions of Jay's name because there are more than one standardized system of romanizing his name. The issue involves not only the correct pronunciation of his name, but also which of the three most common romanization is the "correct" way of spelling his name. The answer is, there's no one "correct spelling" for his name because all the versions are "correct" depending on which region you're talking about. As for the correct pronunciation, it's really hard for people to get it because they can't actually hear the pronunciation we're trying to describe and explain.

As for why Hokkien people in general can understand Taiwanese better while the Teochew and Hainan people can't, like I've posted:
Minnan is considered as a language group that consists of many dialects that some are easily intelligible to each other and some are harder.
It's just like there are at least nine types of spoken Hakka like I've mentioned on page 5. Everyone originated from the same province in China, but over the years, migration and assimilation into the local culture has changed the way some words are pronounced and introduced new slangs into the dialects.

[dazzlette]

dazzlette: The "problem" is, there are different versions of Jay's name because there are more than one standardized system of romanizing his name. The issue involves not only the correct pronunciation of his name, but also which of the three most common romanization is the "correct" way of spelling his name. The answer is, there's no one "correct spelling" for his name because all the versions are "correct" depending on which region you're talking about. As for the correct pronunciation, it's really hard for people to get it because they can't actually hear the pronunciation we're trying to describe and explain.

The issue here is not the correct spelling of his name right? We want to know how to pronounce it right? ( that's the title of the this thread!) I know that there are 3 'correct' ways of spelling his name because it all depending on the region we're talking about. My opinion is that since Jay's from Taiwan, it should be spelt as 'Chou'. As to how 'Chou' should be pronounced, I really have no idea cos I don't know how romanization under the Wales-Giles system is really like.

I reckon that maybe we should create a sound clip on how to pronounce Jay's name in Mandarin/Pu Tong Hua 普通話/Zhong Wen 中文.. that pronounciation I am sure is correct..

Oh and thanks for that little bit of info on Taiwanese/Hokkien/Minnan (I'm not even sure what I should call it now!) :flowers:

[vunsin]

I know the initial issue was not about the correct spelling of his name, but how could we explain the pronunciation of his name without ever mentioning the different ways his name could be romanized? They're what created the confusion in the first place.

Jay's name, according to his official documents, should be: Chou Chieh Lun.

Actually, you could find tons of Wade Giles chart online if you'd just type in "wade giles" in any search engine.

[dazzlette]

Oh look what I found!!
http://www.dionysia.org/chinese/language/wade-giles.html


How Wade and Giles did a Disservice to the English Speaking World
For many years English speakers have been horribly mispronouncing Chinese words and names. The cause of this: the Wade-Giles system of romanization. I'm sure doctors Wade and Giles had only the best of intentions when they devised this attrocity--and I have no doubt that Linguists think it a masterpiece. But it is because of this system that we are today in such a state of calamity--as Alan Watts described it: "Department of utter confusion!"

So what's the problem?
The problem is that the Wade-Giles system is unintuitive--that is, if you haven't been taught how the system works, you will most assuredly get it wrong. Unless you are completely familiar with how the system works, you will inevitably mispronounce the majority of the words. This is why "tao" is pronounces d-a-oe, and why "T'ai Chi" is pronounced t-ah-ee j-ee. Alan Watts suggested, jokingly, that Wade and Giles set it up this way so that they could easily distinguish scholars from lay people. Later in this page I will show you how the system works, so that you too will be initiated.

Wait, it gets worse.
As if it isn't bad enough that English speakers have to use this misleading system of romanization, now it is becoming intermixed with the new systems. There are other romanization systems which are much more practical. In China, for instance, the Pinyin system is used, which is far more intuitive, mostly using proper English letters for their equivalent sounds. In many books published today, you will inevitably find some Chinese words spelled using the Wade-Giles system, and others spelled using the Pinyin or Yale systems. This happens especially with names. The names of older Chinese people, which were originally rendered with the Wade-Giles, are left that so that people will not get confused. But the names of recent Chinese people were rendered from the start using the Pinyin system, so that even in a book which uses Wade-Giles throughout, these people's names will appear in Pinyin.

Hold on, it gets even worse!
Having a mixture of Wade-Giles and Pinyin within the same book is bad enough, but there's something that is even worse. Many publishers today (aside from not knowing much about Typography, which is an outrage) do not know anything about the various systems of romanization, and so do not know what those apostrophes are for. So, not wanting to fool with them, they leave them out!. Consequently, there is a large amount of books published today which use the Wade-Giles spelling but without the apostrophes! This is a travesty worse that you can imagine. When this is done, even if you do know how the Wade-Giles system works, you still won't be able to figure out how to pronounce the words. Go to any book store and browse through the Martial Arts section. Notice that at least half of the books about Taijiquan (spelled "T'ai Chi Ch'uan" in the Wade-Giles system) actually have it spelled "Tai Chi Chuan"! Not only that, most of them do that to every Chinese word and name throughout the entire book. So the reader--even if he or she knows how to decifer the Wade-Giles code, has a snowball's chance in hell of pronouncing the words correctly.

How the System Works
Instead of just using Roman characters that would approximate the sounds of the Chinese language as closely as possible, Wade and Giles came up with a system that only a Linguist could appreciate. The majority of the confusion lies in the way they rendered the unvoiced consonants (those consonants on which you can't sing a continuous tone). They differentiated the aspirated and unaspirated consonants by using the same characterd, distinguishing them only with an apostrophy...

They gave an example at the end by I couldn't copy that part. It doesn't matter.. I didn't really understand it either!!

As I said earlier, I don't know why anyone would romanize a language and not even try to get the sounds as close as possible to the original sounds.

[vunsin]

Actually, the same could be said for hanyu pinyin or any other romanization system regarding this:
The problem is that the Wade-Giles system is unintuitive--that is, if you haven't been taught how the system works, you will most assuredly get it wrong.

Just take a look at the Korean language. It's so hard to romanize it because the language has alphabets that have no equivalents in Roman alphabets. That's why the name Jang Hyuk could also be spelled as Jang Hyeok, Jang Heok, Jang Hyuck, Jang Hyok, etc. Even different dictionaries use different ways of romanizing the same characters.

[dazzlette]

There is another system which I found online called the Yale system.

For English speakers, Yale is the most intuitive system. If you want to make a half-assed guess as to the pronounciation of a word, Yale is a good starting point.

Jay's name under this system would be Jou Jye Lwun. :? I don't know if this really helps..

I wouldn't say that pinyin is the best system, but I think it's still slightly closer than Wales-Giles.

[vunsin]

The Yale system, I assume, was created by some linguists at Yale? :? So maybe it'd make more sense to Americans or English speakers in general? :? But I'm sure most people in Asia have never heard of it.

Actually, I think, IF and ONCE you've mastered the hanyu pinyin system, it should make the most sense to you among all the romanization systems out there.

[dazzlette]

I was trained under the han yu pin yin system. So well, to me that one makes the most sense. :happy:

From all I read so far, Wales-Giles was supposed to romanize Mandarin. So 'Chou' is supposed to be pronounced in the exact same way as 'Zhou' (hanyu pinyin) or 'Jou' (Yale).

[vunsin]

Yes, that was what we'd talked about in the first two pages of this thread. We'd already mentioned that they're pronounced the same way, but romanized differently, because of regional differences.

[dazzlette]

Ok I missed that bit that said it should be pronounced the same way. I dunno why I was always under the impression that the Wales Giles system is trying pronounce chinese in a Western way. So it never occured to be that it should all be pronounced the same.

You know after such a long discusion, I think people who have been calling Jay 'Jay Cho' or 'Jay Chow' or 'Jay Zhou' all this while will continue calling him that same way no matter what has been said.

[vunsin]

Yes. And that was the exact conclusion Lisa and I had come to on the previous page, before you started posting in this thread again. :rolleyes:

[dazzlette]

Oh dear what a pain I must have been! :shy: I revived a discussion totally for nothing. :oops:

thanks vunsin and wacky anyhow. :flowers:

[vunsin]

No problem. :laughing: Believe me, sooner or later somebody ELSE would start a similar thread again. :rolleyes:

[PaoAiJieLun]

i pronounce his last name as in "chou"="go"-----> change "g" to "ch"...... y'know, last sound is a long o..... and then his name, Jie Lun.... pronounced as "chieh-lun" (with a little restraint on the "u" in lun... it's as if "i" and "u" fights over in the "lun"......) i hope you understood me.... well, i guess i pronounced it right cos when i went to China Town here, (i bought some CDs...), i talked with the chinese saleslady using some of the chinese i know and she understood me well!!!! hehehehe..... good for me!

[Pugwash]

Bah, why revive such an old thread? :bleh:

And is that in English or Chinese PaoAiJieLun?

[vunsin]

PaoAiJieLun: Um... if you'd bothered to read any of the post in this thread, you wouldn't have needed to make those comments.