Is The Government Doing Its Job To Prevent Racism?!

[Sugar&Spice]

I have seen a couple of threads that bring up racism of religon, and such. But I want to talk about racism period. Alot of people have said that since it is 2006 there is really no reason to fear racism any longer, and that it is the thing of the past. But the news constantly contidicts that kind of thinking.. How?! I'll give you a couple of examples...


1. A month ago in New Jersey, skinheads went on a rampage and have killed about 5 people because of their skin color. Sources say that they are recruting new members everyday into their groups. (This is based on a news article called the charlotte observer, as well as NBC news. So these are not my own assumptions if anyone might be wondering.)


This is only one example among many other horiffic, crimes due to race. And racism comes in many forms. Today people say we live in a more race tolerent world. But yet-and-still the people who claim this are the very ones who cringe at the thought of someone of another race siting next to them.


Recent polls have shown that people have preconcieved negtive ideas about another race and don't even know it until they are in the situation.



So the reason I brought this topic up is because racism still exsists. Not only that but it is intergraded into every aspect of society. Even those who claim to be our friends may hide a form of rasicm.


I have witnessed racism on so many levels today, that leads me to see the horrible fact that despite the centry, people have not been able to get over their prejudice.


So my opinion is that the government has not done its job when it comes to preventing racism. Their punsihments in regards to this situation, has been but a slap on the wrist, to those who are guilty. If the government stepped in and had more of a handle on the situation, then less lives would be lost, at the hands of hate crimes.(racial hate crimes)


I know that this is a sticky topic. But hopefully we can converse in a decent manner.

[c_c_]

I think that we should still worry about it, I have a personal experience to relate:

last halloween, my friends and I (we're ABCs) were trick or treating in our neighborhood. my friend's younger brother (two years younger than us) was with us as well. We had arrived at the house of this white kid called Matt Stein and guess what he placed in my friend's younger bro's bag?! a dead mouse.

A Dead Mouse.

The police were called, the poor boy (my friend's bro) was crying from shock and hurt, my friend and I were crying from sheer rage. and guess what the idiot's parents said? "Oh, but he's a good kid! he's a good kid! anyways, other kids do stuff on mischief night as well, so it's perfectly fine that our son did that." I was like:
"yo, just cause other children do it, doesn't make it right for your kid to do it too ..." and the frickin (white) police officer snapped at ME INSTEAD! something about my not being able to speak like that to grown-ups.

~~~

that's my story. the way, I think, to protect ourselves from this type of rascism is to show other people that we won't take their discrimination and slights quietly. Basically what we did? (Unfortunately I hadn't been able to take part in this) These other asian friends of ours (the very next night) took eggs and THOROUGHLY egged the rascist kid's house. he never made the same mistake twice. :)

[judes]

Sugar&Spice...
i had to edit your topic title and you have a lot of typos and some grammar errors in your post that makes it difficult to understand what your point is.

if i can point you to the rules, remember that you should have an opinion in your first post please. are you saying that you believe racism still exists? and those are your examples that support it? the only time that there does not need to be an opinion is for the monthly debates when BOTH sides are presented in a neutral manner and people attempt to discuss a lighthearted topic. but for a serious topic such as this, i hope that you can bring forth your ideas and your opinions so that people can debate and discuss. you have brought up some ideas for us to think about, now all we need is something to respond to that's from you, unless you can bring up both sides of the argument.

[Sugar&Spice]

C.C that was a terrible experience!! When children and teens act in such a way, it shows that they are being brought up the way the parents think about things. If he wasn't being taught that, then he would probably not have acted in such a hideous manner. But I'm glad they got him back with the eggs!!:D

Now it is time for my example. When I was younger, my sister and I lived in a all white neighborhood, and went to an all white school. I never had a problem with them calling me the N word because I'n light, but my sister who is darker was constantly called the N word and was always harrassed. The left her with a mental scar, and now she can't stand white people.

To me hate dosn't solve hate, but only produces more of it. The biggest misconception that people have is that if your not white, then you must either, live in the ghetto, or have limited education. I have seen people say that they have tolerence for other races, but then they hold their pocketbooks a little tighter when a darkskinned person walks by. Or assume someone eats nasty food because they are different.

There is even racism inside of a race. If your black, then the darker skinned black will think that if you're light, you must think that you are better. It is like an endless cycle of hatred.

The best way we can protect ourself form it is to be sure that we keep an open mind towards all races,. And to never go out in the dark alone. Because, that makes you a target for a racist attack. Alot of the attakcs have happened when a perso was alone.

Me and C.C have shared our exprience. Dose anyone else have any?!

[xiaoting]

I live in Houston, Texas, so racism isn't really a huge problem here. There are lots and lots of cultures and races here, so I don't have any anxieties about it.

However, there ARE places in the Texas where people have never seen an Asian person before. One summer I went to this camp at some small town with an indian name with my church, which is mostly Chinese, and when we walked into the main building...There were all these white people staring at us. Well, during our camp week, we were made fun of and asked if we were japanese, and were greeted with "konnichiwa's," and so on. Many of my peers were extremely offended, since most of us have never experienced anything like this in Houston. But it was SO weird, because it was a church camp! I was disgusted. Really!

In the DEEP South and the Midwest, I know there are less Asians there...so try to avoid that area - hahaha. Well, at least go to the more populated cities.
A better way to deal with racism is to be more open. Don't take things so seriously...unless people actually have an intent to hurt you. If a friend says anything offensive, make sure that you tell him/her to not say anything like that in a nice and calm way. Neh, that's how I deal with it. But it rarely happens here.

[Sugar&Spice]

Xiaoting- your experience was terrible. When they were saying all of those stupid racal remarks. Some people are just so close minded.

But there was one thing that I disagree with. When you said that kind of thing dosen't happen much where you are at. I have never been to Texas. But I have found that places where people don't show their racism muach, tend to have the worst kind of racism. Let me explain. Alot of people will hold in their negitive feelings of another race, just because there is a large amount of different cultures around. They know they would be in a losing battle if they sopke out in a place that is multi-cultured. But the hate is still there, and after a while can be released in racial attacks.

A news report 2 years ago. Showed that a man who seemed to be racialy tolerant, and had friends who where of different races. One day all of a sudden attacked a young black woman, raping and killing her. When asked why, he said," I was tired of pretending to like these N people. I hate anyone who is not white, and I tried but couldn't get over my hate." So people who don't show that are racist, really are the ones that need to be feared. Although we cannot be sure of who is harboring these emotions, we can take steps to protect ourselves.

1. As I stated earlier, don't go out at night alone.

2. Never get too close to someone who you just met. Going to a club, dinner, one night stand. These situations are dangerous.

3. Always carry pepperspray, etc.

4. Always watch your surrondings.

These are just a few helpful tips. Lets look at another aspect.

When friends make racial remarks. Should they still be considered your friend?! Or should their remarks be overlooked because they are your friends?!

I think that if your friends are making remarks about your race, they are not really your friends. And to ignore their remarks, only condones their behavior.

I had a white friend that would always make remarks about black people eating fried chicken, etc. And I would let her know that I didn't like it. But what got me one day was the fact that she at a sad attempt to make a joke said,"Guess what my dad brought to the dinner table last night? A confederate flag!!" And she REALLY thought thats was funny. That was the last strwa for me, I not only ended our friendship, but I cussed her out, and kicked her butt!! I don't condone violence. But this was an exception.:D

So we have to look closely at who we think our friends are. They might not be what we think.

[Ginuwine]

I live in Houston, Texas, so racism isn't really a huge problem here. There are lots and lots of cultures and races here, so I don't have any anxieties about it.

However, there ARE places in the Texas where people have never seen an Asian person before. One summer I went to this camp at some small town with an indian name with my church, which is mostly Chinese, and when we walked into the main building...There were all these white people staring at us. Well, during our camp week, we were made fun of and asked if we were japanese, and were greeted with "konnichiwa's," and so on. Many of my peers were extremely offended, since most of us have never experienced anything like this in Houston. But it was SO weird, because it was a church camp! I was disgusted. Really!

In the DEEP South and the Midwest, I know there are less Asians there...so try to avoid that area - hahaha. Well, at least go to the more populated cities.
A better way to deal with racism is to be more open. Don't take things so seriously...unless people actually have an intent to hurt you. If a friend says anything offensive, make sure that you tell him/her to not say anything like that in a nice and calm way. Neh, that's how I deal with it. But it rarely happens here.

dude why should we avoid stuff for just being another race? if i get a racist taunt i would ignore it, but if it keeps coming im ready for a fight. i dont wanna sound like a gangster or a hoodlem but i hate it when im getting discriminated cause we are different. hey i can be racist too, but i choose not to be cause a major rule in my life is not to discriminate. i treat everyone with respect and thats how i want to be treated back. Come on it's the 20th century, we know there are other races around stop being arrogant and learn to live with a multicultural population. i admire all people for being unique, and different. Life would suck if we were all the same. The majority of ppl aern't racist and can cope with difference, but it's that small amount of uneducated people who are racist. A racist is scared of another race because they don't know anything about them.

[zhy378]

yes we should still worry about racism. there will always be racism. i learned from my african american studies class that racism can be seen as classism in which race is included because thats what seperate people. we use racism to prevent some races to have economic need and political power.

in america, racism has been going on ever since it was founded-explored by european with indentured servants (sevants on contract). by 1875, they passed the Civil Rights Act that banned discrimination.but hello, if we have an act that banned discrimination, why did we had the whole martin luther jr.'s "i have a dream" speech. so it wasnt until almost hundred years later in 1950s-60s that america's discrimination and segregation was kind of ( i say kind of since i believe it still exists like some place in the south) resolved or at least known.

or another kind of racist thing that happened in america, such as the Immigration Exclusion Act of 1882 that was aimed only to chinese to have chinese immigration to be stopped. then the Immigration Act of 1924 that later led to the whole ban of Asian immigration. so at this point you can see that america can be racist in a way of not wanting asians in the country during the late 1800s and early 1900s.

:whistle: so anyway, enough about the past. i havent really been in a racist experience. but i do attend a college in a kind of racist town. last year a black couple sued the town's police department for discrimination. the reason is that they live in town with no bad record of any crime but cop cars always drive by their house. like the couple will have some guests at their house and a cop car will drive by, stop in front of their house and beam their flashlight into their house to see if they were drug dealing or something. so this couple has been recording with a camera all the policemen who slow down by their house seeing if they were doing something illegal. im not sure what happened with the suing case, but all i got to say, lots of students here have bad experience with the cops since cops got nothing to do here in this town, so some people started protests,etc.

as for solution, there's two way, either we(people in america) suck up to the white supermacy, being appealing to the whites to get what we need, or we can challege it.

[Sugar&Spice]

If we take a look at the news, the government seems to be addressing every other issue, except for racism. By the experiences that I have read, I can't help but to think. That if there are more harsher punishments put in place, to protect citizens from racism, people wouldn't feel like it is okay to openly express their intolerence for other races.


C.C gave an example of a policeman correcting her, when she was the victim of a racist act. It is things like this, that really allows for the disturbing actions of people who are racist, to go unnoticed.

[puukiness]

wow.... reading all this O_O
but i think we all have a little racism in ourselves, even if its just a little bit right?? or maybe just me.. i have to admit i'm a little racist, becuase of personal experiences and just what my parents drilled into my head.
sorry if this offends anyone, if it does i'll delete it right away but here's a example...:
:deleted:
thats just something that you've heard too many stories about or movies show, or anything.. i don't think racism like this can ever be eliminated becuase its what people think in their minds, the gov. can't really make sure your not racist.

[Sugar&Spice]

Okay, yes it was a little bit offensive. Because I'am black, and never stole anything in my life. But there really isn't any reason, to get too angry about it. Because alot of people tend to judge others without even knowing anything about them. So actually the problem lies with the person who holds the preconcieved ideas. Because they will never know the real value of another race. Peole can be holding on to their purse, and the Black men night not even be thinking about that person. And today, everyone steals. White, black, asian, etc. So you just might be holding your purse against someone black, while someone white, or asain will be stealing it on the other end. And not all black people steal. It never occurs to people that black people go out and have a good time like others?! And that they are not always out looking for a purse to steal?! Come on people get serious.

As far as the government is concerned. I kow that they cannot tell whether you are a racist or not. But they can tighten up the punishment, due to racist crimes. People can harbor these ignorant preconcieved negetive opinions about another race. But the government should make it a point to let people know that if these thoughts are put into action, against another human being, that the results will be disaterous for the one who committed the hate crime. Then people will know not to take their hate out on other people, just because of their skin color.

[orangeman]

People are rebellious, and hate others no matter what the government does. The KKK hanged blacks, and the government knew. They didn't do much. Racism is something the government should avoid venturing into. It'll create a worse situation.

If the government punishes racists, there'll still be racists around. Everyone is racist, no matter how they think otherwise. I don't think it'd be fair to punish someone's life if they said some harsh words. Those offended by the words shuold wake up. It is hurtful, but that's what the world is today.

Who or what would determine a racist? People's opinions vary on the issue of racism, and the government can be bribed, leading to corruption. If they are, then the country will be hectic. Everyone can be called a "racist", because giving the government full control is basically surrendering rights. Some people don't deserver their rights, but at least a trial.

Racism is one's opinion on other race, and it's not entirely fair to punish racists. If we do, then the government will take over our minds. And think of living in a world like that....

[Sugar&Spice]

Orangeman- I don't agree with anything you just said. Now usually I enjoy your posts, but this one really is flawed. And here is why.

You say that if the government got involved with racism that it would make things worse. And then you brought up the KKK. You also said that the government knew about it. And then said that if the government got involed it is taking away the rights of people and telling them what to think?!

How did you come up with this kind of reasoning?! So you are telling me that people had the right to torture and kill black people because it was their right!!!! So you are saying that the government should not have gotten involved with the racisist who did those horrible acts?! Your reasoning is flawed.

I don't think that people should be allowed to commit hate crime just because they don't like a certain race. The government punishing people because they commited a hate crime is not getting into anyones mind. Why should people be allowed to the tortured or killed because of their skin?!

So you mean to tell me that if someone came up to you and beat the crap out of you because you are chinese. You would understand because it is their right?!

I think that racism excells because of that same pattern of thinking that you just displayed. I don't mean to sound rude but I have to be blunt.

I expected more from you, but found myself to be very disappointed.

In my opinion, racism is something that the government should be involved in, when it turns into hate crimes. People are entitled to their own opinion. But when it stems into violence, then the government should be involved as far as adminestring punishment. Because of the government not getting involved as far as the KKK, alot of lives were lost. And that is something that saddens me, dispite anyone else who may not give a damn. And people are still losing their lives today because of racism, and hate crimes.

[orangeman]

I didn't say people have any rights to be racist. I said that the government shouldn't get involved. People always turn to the the government for help. Well, racism isn't controlled by the government. It's controlled by the minds of those that commit such deeds. Telling the government to punish anyone because they are "racist" in some peoples' eyes is stupid.

Racists should recieve punishment, but it should be mental help, not physical suffering. Teach them how to think, rather than inflict pain. And not all racists are cruel and sadistic, some are average people who just don't like a certain kind of people. I think it's normal as long as there's no violence/extreme prejudice.

I'm not supporting or against racism, just thinking that government-issued punishment is wrong. Nothing gets better when the government steps in.

[countess]

Orangeman: i agree that if the government enforce some type of punishment for racism, then things will get out of control. This is the reason why. Essentially, we are all humans, we are all from a particular race.. how can you not have one bit of prejudice or speck of racism inside of you? It is impossible because one person cannot possibly understand enough information of another race to be able to make judgements that aren't formed by some preconception. For example, i am asian, and i cannot possible know as much about a Lebanese person, with regards to their culture, their beliefs, lifestyle and therefore i will rely on what i hear from friends, from the media etc. Just like the discussion in the first few posts of this thread.. people were giving experiences and they will unconciously or consiously form my judgement.

The government can't step into in through punishment because there is ALWAYS two sides to a story. The Cronulla Riots was a case in Australia last year when a few thousand white people stormed into Cronulla (where i lived at that time) and molested/attacked any middle eastern looking person on the street. The violence was outrageous, the police had to step from everywhere and guard the place for weeks afterwards. Then after that attack, a middle eastern boy of 17yrs burnt the australian flag in public. both sides were outraged. the whites because their national honour had been attacked, and the middle eastern people, because they had been physically and mentally attacked. how can you possibly step in and say who is right and who is wrong? obviously charges were still made against people who commited violence on another, but you can't possibly charge the 1000+ people who ran around like hooligans and wrote "we hate Lebs" on their backs.. its THEIR opinion.

The thing that the government CAN do however, is to implement mandatory education about different cultures and societies. It is only through a deeper understanding and knowledge of another race in which we can REDUCE racist forms of thinking. The education system can bring light onto the issue instead of treat it like a taboo. We can all acknowledge that we are racist in some form or another because it is simply human nature to fear what we are not familiar with.

I think the education system is particulary important because the older we get, the firmer our values become, therefore it is a lot harder for the older generations to change their point of views when they have believed in it all their life.

[puukiness]

sorry sugar and spice, i deleted it, but i just want to let you know i didn't mean it in anyway offensive at all.i know it was a bit offensive to you so sorries ^^;;

u said: Because alot of people tend to judge others without even knowing anything about them. so other people don't really get to understand other's race and culture. i think that is becuase there are alot of bad people there who take advantage of people who are open and freindly and end up getting hurt sometimes. now a days, we are so cautious of almost everything! like orange man said, i don't think its possible for gov. to have complete control of racism, they can have harsher punishments and stuff but that doesn't really make people like... oh i'm not going to be racist anymore..... however, it would help decrease the racist actions and stuff

[AZNiNjARaVeR]

Of course i have personal experiences with racisim. Where i live in california, there are alot of the "bro" type people. Usually the definition bro refers to white people with lifted trucks, lowered pants, and trucker hats, and other accessories. Many of these bros are actually down to earth people, but there are always a group of them that just cause too much trouble.
one of my cases where this can be seen is at my highschool, when i went there, there were always there kids that were about half my height that would bug the jehebus(f word replacement) out of us. They angered the hell out of me and my friends. One time they even threw a soda at us, that was opened. It went strait for me, but when i saw it comming out of the corner of my eye, i hit it, causing it to not spill on me, but all over my friend/s. They always have one big fat kid with them. This kid acts tough, he thinks hes though, but the truth, hes just fat. We all know that he cant take most of us on. When we look at him, we call him Michael Jackson, because hes surrounded by short kids. He always picks fights and backs down by walking(running) away.
They also are "unfair" Two of the students, also asian, were gained up on and attacked, when there was an agreement on a 2v2. They were both sent to the hospital due to about 30 kids gaining up on them kicking to the floor and kicking them around.
Due to this, a huge rouckas arroused at my school and the asians grouped with other groups and retaliated against them. From what I heard, some of my friends used staffs and other weapons. I dont know any of the bros that were beaten, but i know that many of my bro friends, are not as "white power" as many people percieve them to be. One of my friends, one of the "broest" bro that I knew, always socializes with many of the asians.
well...what about the government?
the government is always delaying the subject of racisim, they always find ways around the subject or find ways to delay them.
even if the government attempted to control racisim, there would be a failed attempt on their part.
What could they do?
Censor many songs existant? leads to violence due to loss of "culture"
set up workshops?too much money government "not willing"
what else is there to do?
they cant do alot to prevent it in the first place, its nearly impossible to prevent a thing that has been dominant in american culture for many many years.
Even though it is fading away slowly, it will always be there, reminding us of our past.

[c_c_]

Orangeman: I do agree that the government can't do anything to control rascism in reality, but the government can control whether this rascism endangers the rights and lives of others. I too have certain mental stigmas that I have trouble overcoming, for example: if you know an asian student who does not do well in school, you automatically label them. But even though the government can not tell people what to think, it can help reduce rascism. the government can start by not being rascist itself! affirmative action in universities that pit students of one race against students of the same race in the competition for acceptance is ridiculous. accepting a student into a university merely because they're a certain race is unfair and a prime example of rascism. the government should also start early - children form most of their subconscious opinions like rascism and religion at a young age - and the government can teach students about tolerance beginning in kindergarten. about organizations like the KKK, the government cannot do anything to stop them from meeting as long as they do not resort to violence.

[Sugar&Spice]

C.C you encompased everything that I wanted to say. I believe that if the government were not prejudice themselves then they would be able to handle matters in a more approriate manner.

Punkiness- Thanks for your consideration. It was a bit offensive, but you did not have to delte it. Black people on a daily basis have to deal with this sort of misinterpetation of our character. But that is not something that can be helped because I agree as far as opinions like that form others cannot be helped. But I really appreciate your thougghtfulness.

Orangeman- I still think you are a smart dude. But I disagreed with the fact that people can have a right to be violent, becaue they did not like a person of another race. That is what your first post sounds like. Also, it is not normal to dislike another race. It is ordinary for someone to be apprehensive about someone different, but not to downright hate a group of people, because of their race.

Countess- I disagree with you. In that situation, there really was not two sides of the stroy. Why do I say that?! Because there is no way to justify hurting another human being. I hardly think that burning a flag is as bad as raping/molesting, and killing someone else. Also, if the government implaments programs to educate others about different races, then that means they are doing something about the situation. Which is more then they are doing now. Which gose along with what I'm saying. They should do more. Also, forming an opinon based on someone elses assumption on them seems very unwise to me. Instead of educating yourself on a situation, you'll let someone else form an opinon for you?! I can't help but think that, that is very mentally lazy. Also, relaying on the media, for a opinon on a different race then your own, is also unwise. The media is full of propaganda, and lies. Years ago they had a special about asian diets, and said that rats are a delicasse for all asians. Now what they failed to say is that, only a certain amount of older generations, eat that kind of meat. Younger generations, tend to eat regular food. But now people think that they all eat that kind of food. So making the media your foundation for knowledge of another race, is futile. And looking towards friends is not something useful either. Because all you get are a bunch of opinions and no facts. To wrap it up, letting others govern the way you think, makes a person seem like a mindless drone. I never fall into that trap, and it is not a valid reason to have perconcieved ideas, about another race.


AZNINJARaVeR- You are right, the government dose tend to dance around the issues of racism. But the examle you gave, just shows that they need to get invovled when it comes to, as C.C said, endagering someone's right to be safe and without harm. When ideas about a certain race, turns into violence. Then it is up to the government to find a way to stop, or limit that course of action.

[orangeman]

I still think you are a smart dude. But I disagreed with the fact that people can have a right to be violent, becaue they did not like a person of another race. That is what your first post sounds like. Also, it is not normal to dislike another race. It is ordinary for someone to be apprehensive about someone different, but not to downright hate a group of people, because of their race.

I'm not racist, but how do others think? Some people don't think racism is that big of a deal. The government can't tell them to stop thinking differently, since it's not illegal to think that way. I don't want the government, who actually are pretty prejudice themselves, to tell me what do to. When they set a good example, I'll agree to let them control me. Meanwhile, I'll figure out my own way to stop racism.

I think it is normal to dislike other races. Not resorting to violence, but we all bad-mouth others. Have you never thought of bad things to inflict upon another race? Some people control that urge, because they're smart enough to know what's right and wrong. And there's those in the world who go create hate groups, violence, chaos, deaths.

Racism is inevitable. When bringing together many diverse gropus of people, there's bound to be disagreements and prejudice. While the government tries its best to control racism, it's just not a major point of interest for them. Best thing is to ignore it, don't get invovled with it, and teach others why it's wrong.

[countess]

Orangeman: I think you and i are on the same wavelength with this debate. I personally believe racism is inevitable, its human nature for one to pre-judge as much as we like to deny it. As you said, since each race is so diverse and different from another, there is bound to be conflict and disagreements.

Sugar&Spice: I think you probably missed the news on the Cronulla Riots last year, but isn't it obvious that there was something that initiated the riots in the first place? Before the riot, some middle eastern looking people were going around Cronulla beaches harrassing normal citizens and the shop owners. they would verbally abuse girls and trash tables+chairs of cafe's etc. They did this in response to the social pressure that the muslim community were going through because of all the terrorist attacks. I agree that it was a foolish move by those middle eastern boys, but they felt the need to retaliate to the constant scrutiny they were receiving from the general public.. in short, there is a certain negative stigma attached whole muslim and middle eastern community in our society atm. I'm not too sure if that is the case in the US, but i think it is likely too.

Also, if the government implaments programs to educate others about different races, then that means they are doing something about the situation. Which is more then they are doing now. Which gose along with what I'm saying

Yes, i agree to an extent to what you were saying. I agree that the government needs to do more, but not along the lines of punishment but rather education. This is where our views differ.


Sugar&Spice, i never stated that i completely let others govern how i think and how i live. I'm saying we will no doubt be affected by others. I am not "mentally lazy" and a "mindless drone", if i were, i wouldn't be here debating this topic with you. I don't think there is one person out there that is not racist. Maybe i shouldnt use that exact term because it seems too harsh. The difference is to what extent and whether we show it or not. There is no perfect human being, we all sin. I personally wouldn't believe a word of what you were saying if you told everyone that you aren't racist to some extent.. it would mean to me that you either don't understand the term or are too ignorant to recognise it within yourself.


Also, forming an opinon based on someone elses assumption on them seems very unwise to me. Instead of educating yourself on a situation, you'll let someone else form an opinon for you?! I can't help but think that, that is very mentally lazy. Also, relaying on the media, for a opinon on a different race then your own, is also unwise. The media is full of propaganda, and lies.

I'm extremely aware that not everything we hear form the media and friends is reliable. I studied the elective "Telling the Truth" for my HSC, i'm quite aware of how the media distort, manipulate, sensationalise, embellish and fabricate the truth in search for higher ratings. However, having said that, i will return to my point about how friends+media will always unconsiously/consiously affect our judgement. It is quite impossible to bar the media and your friends. If your mother walked home one day and got mugged and bashed by a middle eastern looking boy, you will immediately attach a negative stigma to that race.


Personal experience will ultimately form your judgements. What we have to keep in these situations is an open mind. We must know that maybe only 0.0001% of say the Lebanese community will commit a crime, and me must try to not stereotype.


How are we to keep an open mind? Through education ofcourse, by learning about another culture and WHY they do things differently from ours. My personal example. In Australia, there has always been conflict between the ruling government and the Aboriginal community. It is a fact that the Aboriginals commit crime at a higher rate than others, but WHY is this. Many people think "Aboriginals already get many government benefits in terms of money and housing, why are they still on drugs and stealing etc?" It's because the money is going the wrong way. The community is highly uneducated, they get the money and buy drugs, hence they live in poverty because all the money has been drained by their addictions. It's a vicious cycle because they bear children and lead them in that pathway, their children skip school and their parents dont care or are incapable of caring.

Everyone wonders why it's come to this state, and why the Aboriginals cant just take the money and get proper jobs etc. Its because they aren't used to such a commercialistic society where money and career is so important. They lived by hunting and sharing, it's just their way of life, they don't understand why everyone else needs to compete and hoard so much money and buy houses. The share houses, they live as a community and stick together.

By understading we can tolerate it more when we hear that so and so got mugged by a person of a particular race. We can challenge the authorities to do something productive about it instead of covering it up with "lets just give them money" and turning a blind eye to whatever else happens.

[Sugar&Spice]

Orangeman- I do not think that you are a racist. I only disagreed with some of the stuff you said, thats all. Calm down, I don't think that. Yes it is ordinary for people to think a certain way about a certain group of people. The thing that keeps coming up is that people think that I'm talikng about people being punished because of thinking negitively about another race. I never said that. I said ONLY when the dislike for another race, turns into violence. That is when they should be punished. The government should get involved when physical harm occurs. P.S keep posting, I love your arguments.:D

Countess- First of all I never said you were a mindless drone. I said that if a person let others influence their thinking then they are a mindless drone. If you want to relate that to yourself I have nothing to do with your decision on that regard.

Secondly, why is it that I'm ignorent because I don't create preconcieved ideas of aother race?! What is ignorent in my book, is to see an individual do something, and then blame it on the whole race. That is my veiw of IGNORENCE. Yes I know what the word racist means, and no I'am not one. If you want to try and critize me for that, then I would have to question your mind frame, and thinking pattern.

To answer your example, I have had people of another race do and say nasty things, to me and my family. But I create an opinion about an individual, not a whole race. Why?! Because not everyone in that race practices what that individual practices. So to classify what an individual dose and say, "wow that whole race is like that!" Is a new level of ignorence to me.

I never said that you can bar the news or your friends. It seems as if you like to be dramatic. My point is that you don't have to let that govern the way you think, as an individual.

You seem to have contredicted yourself. Now at one point you stated that you allow what your friends say and what the media says to form a certain preconcieved idea of another race in your mind. And then yousay,' we must know that 0.0001% of the Lebanese community will commit a crime, we must not judge." So what are you saying?! At one point your judging and saying that all people do, and then at another point you are saying not to judge. Which one is it?! Your not confused are you?!

The thing about the government covering up crimes made by people who have little money, is hog-wash. They have enough rich people on drugs, why do they need anymore?! It is easy to judge and say that certain people are on drugs because they don't know how to have anything. But what is the excuse for the "White collar crimes?" Or rich people who are used to having money and a better way of life, who are hooked on drugs?! Or who commit murder for insurance money?! It have to do with the persons mind frame, not whether or not they have money. Slap a fancy suit on them, and they all look alike. Rich or poor crime is crime. And the worse crimes are done by people who have money, and a nice way of life.

Of couse there is always something that initiates conflicts. That is why it starts in the first place. Ok so they were saying nasty things, and trashing the tables. The authorites should have handled it from the start. But to get back at them and rape, molest, and kill them is hardly what I would call and equal payback. There is never any justification when you decide to kill, or harm someone physically. Also I'm sure that the ones they did this to, some of them were not even in it, but bystanders that happened to be in the same race of those who they wanted to get back at.

9/11 Is a good example of it. People started to beat and kill every eastern they saw after that. People who had nothing to do with the bombing. But because they were of that race, they were punished. Now that is what I call ignorent.

Putting up schools and trying to educate people about other races, is very limited. There are people who will still want to show their hatered by physical violence. And that is why they need to know that if tey harm someone, they are i for alot of trouble. When people get that into their heads, then they will think twice before, PHYSICALLY harming another human being.

[countess]

Countess- First of all I never said you were a mindless drone. I said that if a person let others influence their thinking then they are a mindless drone. If you want to relate that to yourself I have nothing to do with your decision on that regard.

Maybe when i type in full sentences, you can't understand what i'm saying. If i type in dot points, do you think you can understand better? Ok,
1. In my post i put these " " between the "mindless drone" and "mentally lazy" because i quoted YOU.
2. Why did i quote you?
3. Because you attacked MY argument, my opinion and said that whoever thinks like the way i expressed in my post was a "mindless drone" etc etc.
4. Therefore, any person who can read between the lines will understand who those words were directed to.

I don't care though, lets put it behind us ok, we're all easy going people here. However, what i must enforce and make clear to you, is the fact that you have taken my argument in my initial post and distorted it or completely misunderstood my point. (read on for more goss!)


Secondly, why is it that I'm ignorent because I don't create preconcieved ideas of aother race?! What is ignorent in my book, is to see an individual do something, and then blame it on the whole race. That is my veiw of IGNORENCE. Yes I know what the word racist means, and no I'am not one. If you want to try and critize me for that, then I would have to question your mind frame, and thinking pattern.

1.I am not saying you are ignorant because you don't create preconceived ideas of another race. I said you might have been ignorant to your blunt refusal to admit that sometimes you DO prejudge, i mean come on- you aren't going to tell me that you are an angel who flew down from heaven are you?
2. The irony to that whole paragraph is your sheer IGNORANCE to spell the word incorrectly all 3 times, no, i wasn't being picky because i usually don't correct your grammar/spelling (we all make some mistakes), but this one just stood out like a sore thumb because you repeated it and caps locked it.




To answer your example, I have had people of another race do and say nasty things, to me and my family. But I create an opinion about an individual, not a whole race. Why?! Because not everyone in that race practices what that individual practices. So to classify what an individual dose and say, "wow that whole race is like that!" Is a new level of ignorence to me.

1. Did I for one minute encourage anyone to do that...(drum roll). NO
2. What did i say?
3. I said, it is easy for one to blame one individual's wrong on their entire race. I said it may be difficult to stop doing it because certain events that have happened in your life by hinder you from doing so. I gave examples. THEN, i said "how are we to keep and open mind?"
4. Lastly, i gave another example on how easy it is to pre-judge (with the Aboriginies case) and offered my ideas on how the government could help reduce racist ways of thinking.

I never said that you can bar the news or your friends. It seems as if you like to be dramatic. My point is that you don't have to let that govern the way you think, as an individual.

It seems that everytime i come into debate with you, we end up arguing about the meaning of my post and not the actual topic. Somebody else please tell me if they feel that i'm saying what Sugar&Spice thinks i am saying, because i feel my opinion always gets distorted.


You seem to have contredicted yourself. Now at one point you stated that you allow what your friends say and what the media says to form a certain preconcieved idea of another race in your mind. And then yousay,' we must know that 0.0001% of the Lebanese community will commit a crime, we must not judge." So what are you saying?! At one point your judging and saying that all people do, and then at another point you are saying not to judge. Which one is it?! Your not confused are you?!

1. I did not contradict myself because i never said i allow my friends+media to govern me. Instead, i stated that it happens maybe unconciously for some and consciously for others. We live in a society, if you understand the basic concepts behind the human psyche, you will know that we are influenced by what is around us, whether we like it or not. We are influenced by our parents, friends, colleagues and the media. However, one way to decipher an informed person from an ignorant one is that
a) an informed person acknowledges all of those things, he/she is aware of how our views are shaped by society, yet he/she seeks truth and knowledge and reads between the lines etc.
b) an ignorant person see's an issue and immediately goes "oh, that mustn't be me, i am completely and utterly perfect, sin? no way". (note exaggeration, in case you were thinking i was being dramatic again)

The thing about the government covering up crimes made by people who have little money, is hog-wash. They have enough rich people on drugs, why do they need anymore?! It is easy to judge and say that certain people are on drugs because they don't know how to have anything. But what is the excuse for the "White collar crimes?" Or rich people who are used to having money and a better way of life, who are hooked on drugs?! Or who commit murder for insurance money?! It have to do with the persons mind frame, not whether or not they have money. Slap a fancy suit on them, and they all look alike. Rich or poor crime is crime. And the worse crimes are done by people who have money, and a nice way of life.

The government cover up crimes? What, are you hallucinating (hehe on drugs) or referring to someone else's post? Once again, it was not my point in my post, plus, this is a race debate right? Why are you going on about rich vs poor? Maybe you should save that for another thread opener.

Of couse there is always something that initiates conflicts. That is why it starts in the first place. Ok so they were saying nasty things, and trashing the tables. The authorites should have handled it from the start. But to get back at them and rape, molest, and kill them is hardly what I would call and equal payback. There is never any justification when you decide to kill, or harm someone physically. Also I'm sure that the ones they did this to, some of them were not even in it, but bystanders that happened to be in the same race of those who they wanted to get back at.

1. No one got killed or raped (u like drama? melodrama?)
2. Did i say it was right to kill....nopety nope no.
3. Yeah, ofcourse most of the attacked middle eastern people were bystanders, isn't it always the innocent ones?

9/11 Is a good example of it. People started to beat and kill every eastern they saw after that. People who had nothing to do with the bombing. But because they were of that race, they were punished. Now that is what I call ignorent.

Wow, something we agree on, but i still don't understand why you don't like my opinion that education is the way...

Putting up schools and trying to educate people about other races, is very limited. There are people who will still want to show their hatered by physical violence. And that is why they need to know that if tey harm someone, they are i for alot of trouble. When people get that into their heads, then they will think twice before, PHYSICALLY harming another human being.

1.That statement you made is absolute "hog-wash" (is that what you americans call it?:crazy: ) There is no logic to support your opinion, no train of thought which explains how you came to that solution.
2. So now the argument has swayed to PHYSICALLY HARMING ANOTHER HUMAN BEING huh? well, if that is want you want, then i dont even know why this topic needs to be a debate. (read on for why!)
3. PEOPLE WHO HARM OTHERS PHYSICALLY ALREADY DO GET PUNISHMENT FROM THE GOVERNMENT. IT IS JUST NOT JUDGED UPON "RACIST ATTACK", BUT RATHER SOMETHING LIKE "PHYSICAL ASSULT, HARASSMENT"!!!

If you want to talk about racism, you have to talk about it as a whole, without cutting out bits and pieces to suit your argument. Orangeman and i mentioned that you cant arrest someone for having racist views because they are entitled to their opinion. But you decided to ignore that fact and focus on "if someone hurts/kills another person, then they must be punished". Wake up buddy, they alread are.

[Sugar&Spice]

Countess- Maybe it is you who may need to read the posts in DOT form. Because if you read my first post, which supports what I have been saying all along, you will see that this thread is talking about the government not doing their job as far as HATE CRIMES are concerned. So you are the one who seems to pick out bits and pieces of an argument, so that you can debate on your level. It is obvious that the government cannot pick out who has raciist thoughts, and punish them. If you think that is what I was saying then I question your intelligence.

What do you mean everytime we debate I draw a wrong conclusion to what you are saying?! I hardly even debate with you. I only had one debate with you, and you did exactly what you are doing now. And it made the debate seem as if I was arguing wih a two year old. Why do I say that?! Let me give you an example.

1. You feel the need to say something and then retract it and try to seem as if you are clever, when a person only needs to read your earlier posts to see that you are retracting statements and contridicting yourself. Like with mindless drone, you felt it important to say that you did not think I called you a mindless drone, and say that you were quoting me?! Where did that come from?! You did say that you were not a mindless drone. I'm not so dumb as to not know that you were quoting me(in case you were wondering. I'm not saying you said I was dumb. So that is one less thing for you to try to bring up)

2. You made a whole big issue about me spelling the word ignorant wrong. People who have nothing else to say, include this into debates.

3. I can't believe that you told me to take the rich/poor argument to another thread, when you yourself brought it up. All you need to do is look at your earlier post. Incase you forgot. So what was your reason of bringing it up?!

4. You qouted me and asked if others saw what I was reading into from your post. Where did I argue about the meaning of your post?! It is you who seems to be arguing everything else but the topic. You are picking through my posts, and not really creating a decent debate. Being sarcastic without bringing a point home dose not make for a clever debate.


5. There is no logic to support my opinon?! Hmm.Can you give me an example why?! I stated that you can educate someone all they want about a race, but if they are intent on hating and carring out hate crimes. Then the education is very limited. The government should then let them know that they cammot get away with physical harm to someone else. Which is what this topic is discussing in the first place. Its not my fault you are confused.

Why don't you give me an intelligent debate. I'm tired of the whole, "pointing fingers, your so densed. You must be crazy." Kind of debtaes that I have been getting. Why don't you start giving me some statements, and some sort of information. That is not sarcastic, and dripping with the,"I'm going to let off steam." Type of thing. I'm tired of the so-called kids way of debates. If what want to debate anything I said, I hope it is in a mature manner. If not debate with someone else.

P.S, why do you keep mentioning orangeman?! And you even put his name in bold letters. What is your point for this?! Trying to get him on your side?! Well he has his own mind, and is very smart, you don't have to keep pushing his name up there. You need to stop trying to use him as some kind of a smoke screen, and deal with your own debates.

Oh and I forgot to add, that I don't thik I'm some angel that fell from the sky. I just don't see the reason to generalize another race. You have no idea what is in my head, so if you choose to be unconvinced that I hold no preconcieved idaes, about another race. Then that is your problem. Maybe it is because you hold those thoughts, so it is hard to believe that someone else dose not hold those views. And by not holding those views, I have been able to relate to alot of different races. So I'll leave the preconcieved ideas, for someone else, since there seems like there is no shortage to people who think that way.

Back to the topic, I think that the government should do more to control hate crimes. Some may say that they already do, but that is not a accurate statement. Because if they do go to jail for hate crimes, it is hardly enough time to rehabilitate the offender.

Anyone else have an opinion?!

[Rekki]

I think public schools need to instegate more culturaly aware programs. Especially in places like New Orleans (where I live), where most of the public school students can't find China on a map.

[countess]

Well thankyou Sugar&Spice, i regard imitation as the biggest form of flattery.

1. You can copy my dotpoint setting as much as you wish, if that makes your life a little easier.

2. I can bold or unbold whatever i like, is there a rule on JC.net that says i MUST bold people's names? You yourself are hypocritical enough to mention it to me, yet you did not bold my name in your post did you?

3. I don't think there is another need for me to continue this debate because i have already given my argument with supporting evidence such as real examples on the Cronulla Riots and the Indigenous Australians.

4. When i mentioned a divide in wealth, it was in point with my example of Aboriginals, therefore making it still relevant to this debate. However, when YOU mentioned it, you did not tie it in with any sort of comment about race.

5. I only mentioned Orangeman because i think we had similar views. I like to recognise someone else who shares my opinion and he DID post before me in this thread so it made sense for me to mention his post. I am not childish enough to "try to get him on my side", we're debating issues remember? I'm not trying to get people on my side, if i agree with you then that's that, if i disagree then i'll argue my case.

In your title it clearly states the topic of debate is "Is the government doing its job to prevent racism". Then in your first post you went on to mention "racism comes in many forms", you acknowledge that racism is not purely hate crimes. But you say you want a debate on hate crimes. It is a very narrow debate if you just leave it at that, and you cannot tell me that i can't expand away from it because it is not going off topic. In order to understand hate crimes, you must trace the source, the psychology behind it, that is my argument. I am saying:
a) No, the government is NOT doing enough to prevent racism and hate crimes.
b) Punishment such as jail sentencing will not help the issue.
c) Hate crimes are only the PRODUCT of extremely racist views, therfore the government should target thr problem from the "developmental stage", rather than from the result.
d) You mentioned "prevent" in your topic, and i believe that education from an early stage in life is the best way to PREVENT or REDUCE racial discrimination.

That is what i have been stating in my posts.

Rekki: I'm glad that you think education is the way to go, it would also be great if you could expand your views and give us more of an understanding to your point.

[Sugar&Spice]

You have said that you already stated your point. And I agree that I have stated mine. So there is no reason to continue to annoy myself with this sensless back and forth thing that is going nowhere. BTW I never put your name in bold. If you look at all of my earlier posts, you will not see your name in bold. So that is another mistake on your part. I don't waste time on unnessary things, so that shows I never put your name in bold. Why would I need to?!:bleh:

Also, you say that you want to expand the debate?! That would be fine if you were adding something to the debate. All I have seen is a whole lot of arguing, and nothing is being brought up. You have used two whole posts trying to insult me. Read your earlier posts if you are confused as to what I'm saying.



And your wrong, I did have information in my first post. Information that was based on the news(that you claimed to watch) as well as a newspaper, called the charlotte observer. That seems to me as sources, to go by. I only saw one source you went by, and you clouded it out with alot of sensless arguments. I'm done. Say what you'd like but I'm finished.


Dose anyone else have an opinion?!

[judes]

kendo, in the previous posts at least some aspect of the topic was addressed, but your post doesn't even touch on anything regarding the topic. I'll give you a chance to edit your post before I delete it so you can add something that's relevent.

but there are some things that do bother me about your posts, Sugar&Spice that I have to point out.

And your wrong, I did have information in my first post. Information that was based on the news(that you claimed to watch) as well as a newspaper, called the charlotte observer. That seems to me as sources, to go by. I only saw one source you went by, and you clouded it out with alot of sensless arguments. I'm done. Say what you'd like but I'm finished.

Just because you have TWO sources in comparison to ONE doesn't mean that you can discount HER source and see yours as better. It doesn't work that way. She talked about what she has heard from the news and you proceeded to say "blah blah blah the media is ridiculously biased etc" but then say that your sources are better because you have TWO sources from the media, which completely contradicts your point.

You simply cannot criticize other people's sources from the media without discounting your own, so which is it going to be? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

And commenting on how someone chooses to bold or not bold certain names in their post is so off topic. It's such a personal choice of presentation of your post and also agreeing or disagreeing and pointing out someone else's point, it's appropriate. Unless there's some way that it prevents you from understanding her point, those little things are just a way to distract from the argument itself if you have nothing to stand on. And I don't think you want to do that to your stance.

You simply have to find a way of expressing yourself that does not involve either directly or indirectly insulting other people. Do not take it personally when people directly insult your arguments, because that is allowed, but when you slide in words like "mindless drone" and basically insinuate all of these negative opinions about someone else PERSONALLY, then that is a problem.

Don't try to circularize your insults by saying "oh I didn't say that I only IMPLIED that if you do this it results in this." Context is key. It is very clear that your intent was to insult her and I do not want to see this escalate into a flame war. Ignoring her opinions and points also do not help how you're doing in this thread.

There have already been many problems about this thread from the start, so everyone, start to treat each other with respect.

[lattae]

I suggest we let things cool off here.

Conflict is inevitable when it comes to discussing issues that involve politics and race. We are doing both here, hence treading on thin ice to begin with.

Like in any debate, you attack the argument, not the person. If need be, clarify your points, not just re-state them. I think the rules of engagement in this discussion has been seriously violated.

This thread is closed until everyone cools off. (do not start a new one to continue this)