Debate: Abortion rights

[jayx8318x]

ahh...the age old topic, discussed numerous times, but never before here.

So that we're not accused of having brain dead topics, here's another one of my debate topic in a series of...oh a few more. Sorry I can't think of any new fresh ideas.

Keep in mind I'm not asking whether you support abortion or not. No one in their right mind would support it.
That's like asking whether you support murder or not.
But rather, the question is do you support the rights to abortion.
In other words, do you think a woman has the right to decide whether she will have an abortion, and whether abortion should be legal or illegal.

In answering the debate topic, state:
1. Your religion, and how devout you are, and whether this plays a major part in your decision
2. Your stand on abortion rights and why


Most people who are anti-abortion exclude cases of
1. Rape
2. Incest (sex with family members)
3. When the mother's life is in danger
question to answer: Would you rather let your baby be born, and you die. Or abort the baby so you can live?
another question: If you knew your child would be born with mental illness, severe deformities like missing hands, feets, etc., or even conjoined at the heads, sides, etc., would you still give birth?)

For the guys, feel free to answer say in terms of your mother, wife, or girlfriend.

----------------------------
Myself personally,
I'm Christian, my level of devoutness if pretty low. I believe in God and live my life as morally sound as I can, but I just don't do the whole church, church camp, prayer session, etc. stuff. My decision on abortion rights is loosely based on my religion.

I believe women should have the right to choose. Myself personally I wouldn't choose to have an abortion if I carelessly got pregnant. Then again I'm almost 22, my life is pretty stable, and I know my family has the means to support me if I do have a child.
However, if I got pregnant at 15 or 16...I still want to say I wouldn't have an abortion, but that's a big IF. Even though I personally wouldn't, I wouldn't criticize nor judge harshly the women who do.
I'm personally disturbed by those radical anti-abortionists who bomb abortion clinics.

For the tough question, whether I would choose to die, or abort my baby if I knew I would die after giving birth...
This is REALLY a tough question, I just realized it now after having to answer it...
Yes I know there's a lot of IFs in this, like what if the baby is born mentally ill? what if you'll die anyways?
Which brings me to the next question, abort the baby if I knew of complications for the child?
It's hard for me to say this, but I would strongly consider it. My thinking is, why put this child through such emotional/physical pain
for their entire life?

This reminds me of the current news about the Egyptian twins, and even another set in the Phillipines, who are conjoined at the heads. The mother of the filipino twins was interviewed, and she said even though she knew they were conjoined early in her pregnancy, she just couldn't abort them. Even though she was a single mother and all, I just thought that was really sad.

[cici bebe]

I'm also a Christian and growing. I don't think it's up to me to say if I'm a strong Christian or not, but I love God with everything I am and try to love others the same. My life is my only proof. I'm against abortion only because of my religion.


In terms of if two dating couples have careless sex and the girl accidentally gets pregnant and wants to abort the child, I'm strongly strongly against that. Take consequences for your actions, don't kill a life to hide your mistakes.

If the situation was rape, I say they should birth the baby then give it up for adoption if they really wanted to, but don't kill it. However, there's a lot of emotional strings attached to that and it's hard to make a decision since I'm outside looking in onto the situation.

If the baby was going to be born with an illness or I would die giving birth.. that IS hard to say. I think I would birth the baby with an illness because God put him into my life for a reason so whatever it may be, I'll try to be prepared for it. As for me dying giving birth (I'm not trying to be selfish), I'm really not sure. Who would care for the child? Would I really want to leave my husband so early? =T

[vunsin]

This is a hard debate because there's no clear-cut yes or no answer to this. And everything's really hypothetical.

Well, I was born a Christian, baptised and everything, but now I don't believe in God anymore so I won't say I'm a Christian. That goes into a whole different debate, so let's leave it at that. Okay, so my "religion" has nothing to do with my decision.

I am pro-choice, but not extreme pro-choice. I don't know if there's such thing as a moderate pro-choice, but I think that's what I am. I mean, I myself wouldn't choose to abort my baby unless under extreme situations. But I'd certainly like to have that choice to do so if I have to.

If I have to choose between my life and my unborn baby's life, I'd say.... Man, this is tough. It'd be easier for me to be the FATHER! If I were the father, I'd choose to let the mother live, because we might still have a chance for another baby in the future. It'd be cruel in a sense to bring the baby to the world without a mother. And if the mother dies giving birth to the baby, then every year, the child would have to "celebrate" his or her birthday on his or her mother's death anniversary. :oops:

I think most people would want the mother to live. I'm not saying I made my decision based on the majority opinion, but I think I'll abort the baby and let myself live. I couldn't bear to bring my child to this world without me there to take care of him or her.

I guess it depends on how badly deformed or ill the baby would be. If it's not that bad then I'd consider giving birth to the baby because nowadays it's not that hard to raise a child with those problems because the society are more educated in general and there are special schools and programs for special children. But if the baby would be so badly deformed or ill that he or she would have to depend on me for the rest of his or her life, then I'd choose to abort the baby, because I wouldn't be able to take care of the child forever. He or she would outlive me, and then what would he or she do? Especially for a girl, it's really dangerous. I mean, there are perverts out there who'd take advantage of mentally challenged girls!

[jaycee]

wow, this is a really controversial issue. i think the fact that i was not raised with a religion and dont plan on committing to one has a big influence in that i support a woman's right to choose whether she should give birth to the baby or resort to abortion. in the cases i've seen (especially during high school), people make mistakes but still choose to have the baby. however, most of them do not become good parents and the child suffers as a consequence. also lots of times, these parents just arent devoted enough to provide a good life for the baby. as for the question whether and i would have my baby and die myself or abort the baby so that i can live ... i have to say that's a really hard one!! i would like to say that if the baby will have someone to support it and take care of it if i die, then i would like to let it experience life. but i admit that when it comes to matters of life and death, people do get selfish. i would also like to experience motherhood but that would mean i will always have to live with the conscience that i'm missing a child that i shouldve had. and as for whether i would abort if i knew beforehand that the baby was defected, i think i would choose abortion because giving birth to the baby would mean that it would probably have to live a miserable life no matter how much love the family can provide. discrmination gets ugly and i think the baby shouldnt have to put up with that on top of the disabilities it already has to suffer.

[destined]

I had to talk about this in class, anyway its up to the mother if she wants the baby or not..

[cherily]

actually..if a gal got pregnant through careless sex..most of the chances are that she wont wanna keep the baby..either cuz she is just too young to take care of one while studying..or her family is unable to cope with the financial burden..or even worse if the guy dont wanna take any responsibility.. :dry: imagine the baby growing up without a dad..thats pitiful :wink2:

i wont blame gals from aborting their child if they face such a problem but in the first place..they should at least prevent it from happening..but if the baby is deformed it depends on the parents whether they should keep it or abort it..why bring it into this world where it would suffer even more right?but i guess its pretty cruel too and most parents wont even bear to do that..if the mom would die during birth..hmm think most moms would be willing to sacrifice everything to save the baby actually..though the father might not think so..yep but even if the mom decides to abort the baby to save herself..its alright too actually..just human instincts..though i know she would be really upset and torn between decisions..

[xian186]

I'm a free thinker, so I think the mother can make the decision, whether to keep the baby anot.
For the careless sex, even though it was an innocent life, but you still got to consider the factors that would affect the baby and the parent itself. Can the young parents cope wit the $$$ problem? Are the young parents mature enough to teach their child the facts of life? Can the young parents devote their life to this child at such young age? What if they divorced? Wouldn't that leave the child a broken family? I'm sure no one wants a broken family.

For mi, I think I would abort the baby so that I can live. Its not that I'm selfish or what, to mi I think that we still young, we can still have babies in future. If I die while giving birth to this child, whose's going to look after it? Then how abt the father of the child? Wouldn't he be a widower for the rest of his life, and was tie down to this child. In that case, wouldn't his chances of finding another mate would be smaller?

And, if I know my child was deformed during pregnancy, I WILL DEFINATELY NOT going to give bath to this child. The reason is simpler, I dun wan my child to live in misery for the rest of their lifes, admire other normal children who can walk, talk, play normally. As a parents, wouldn't wan your child to play happily too? Jus like a normal kid?

So jus thinking abt it, though abortion = murder, you still have to think of the consqeues if you think its rite to give birth to the child, Its a responbility for life, not for play.

Well, this is my view.

[cowboy]

First, jayx8318x, I like how you seperated the moral issue from the political issue of abortion. To debate the morality of abortion is useless, because it is the same as infanticide. The real debate lies in politics, and whether it is the woman's or the government's right to decide of a baby dies or not.

As far as religion goes, I would say I am more of an agnostic now. I used to be Christian, but what does it matter if your god's name is Jesus, God, Allah, or whatever. There's a God, but what he wants out of us, who knows. And like Vunsin said that is an entirely different debate.

I support the right to abortion only because if the right to have an abortion did not exist teenage girls would go crawling into basement doctors to get their babies removed. Women demand abortions, so we should sell them, in safe and clean enviroments as not to further damge the mothers. That child is a burden on a mother and the society if it cannot be adaquatelly supported economically. I favor adoption because there are lots of poeple out there who can't have children that wnat babies, but for those who'd rather not live through a pregnancy the option should be available. This makes me "Pro-Choice" I guess. I would like to see a little say in the decision by the father if he is present. However, it is the woman's body, so she should have the ultimate say.

Furthermore, with overpopulation rapidly becoming the number one issue facing the world today, I don't think we should weep to long over lower birthrates in this world. I fear my children will have to deal with problems we and our parents couldn't even fathom. Like where can i get clean water, and will; ihave enough to eat today. The population forcast for the future looks quite grim. Population control now, means a happier future for those in the future like our children.

[yukiko]

maybe its not about what my religion... i dun really think that religion is an important thing. but i dun mean i dun believe in god. i believe HIM, but i haven't decide what religion am i. but with my personality answer,
i wanna ask 1st.. what kind of abortion we talking about???
if the abortion bcoz Married By Accident, i dun prefer to abortion. i mean, its me doing that thing, so i should take all the risks. i can't kill my baby.
but if like what u said b4, u must abortion ur baby n u still live, maybe i'll do it. i know i'm killing. but i think its the best way even its still a bad things. n i think maybe my husband will agree with me in that conditions.
in MBA case, maybe its hard to be single parent. but if u are already to do it, pls dun kill ur baby. its ur risk. esp if u already graduate minimal from high school. im sure u can do it. even not well. but try...n ganbatte ne.
so...use condommm guys.

[Evenstar]

Well, I'm also a Christian...A devoted Catholic, actually...People keep saying that they won't do that, of course...but it's only words...they really don't know how hard it is for someone to carry a baby out of her own will...I do know, of course because my cousin, well she was on the verge of doing it but the reason why she didn't drop the baby is because of fear...fear of God, I guess...But even under different circumstances it's not the baby's fault that she gets to be created...fault or not, the baby's not guilty of any crime just yet, so aborting her won't do any good...unless you hate the father that is. But as I've said, the baby's innocent, so why kill an innocent life? It's not his fault anyway, but the mother's...

About rape, again, taking the baby's life won't do you any good...it'll just ruin your life...think about what people might say about you...it's not enjoying you know... :cry:

[shouling]

as a Christian i feel that it is wrong to kill a featus regardless.

but for topic discussion i will say that it should be the mothers choice.
there are many resons why young women get abortions: rape, too young, cant afford it, irrisponsible(of couse you have to be to get pregnant in the first place.keke.), parental pressure and the others that Karen stated. so you cant totally blame them all the time for it happening.
like cici said about taking responsibility for your actions....i strongly agree with her.
for some of the other resons i would have to say that adoption is strongly suggested. even if you choose not to keep the baby you can take the option to help out someone who cant have children, plus this will give the child a chance to have a happy life~! dont kill unless you absolutely HAVE TO~!

now on to the questions.........
Q: Would you rather let your baby be born, and you die. Or abort the baby so you can live?
i would have no choice. i would rather die and give someone else the chance at life, rather than continue mine. by the time i were to get pregnant, my life will have been at least partially lived. then again if my life was a happy one and filled with joy i might reconsider, but untill that day were to happen i have no idea what the outcome would be.

Q: If you knew your child would be born with mental illness, severe deformities like missing hands, feets, etc., or even conjoined at the heads, sides, etc., would you still give birth?)
i would still have it. my child is my child no matter what. i would care for them and love them. that is my view...always has been....always will be~!

[OLive_aNN]

I'm Catholic. Actually I do not support abortion as it is against God's will but in some cases, I support abortion. I think God creates humans and send them through woman’s womb. Doing abortion means we try to run away from fate and reality and it is not a right thing to do.
Some reasons why woman do abortion:
She is not ready to become a parent
She cannot afford a baby
She doesn’t want anyone to know she has had sex or is pregnant
She doesn’t want to be a single parent
She is too young or too immature to have a child
She has all the children she wants
Her husband, partner, or parent wants her to have an abortion
She or the foetus has a health problem
She was a victim of rape

I only support abortion if the mother or the baby has a health problem. If she wants to do abortion just because she accidentally gets pregnant.. :oops: too bad! That's her own risk. I believe that rape and incest are horrible crimes and should be punished, but I don’t believe that a child conceived from either should be killed.
If she/her family cannot afford a baby or if she is a victim of rape... she can give her baby for adoption.

Q: Would you rather let your baby be born, and you die. Or abort the baby so you can live?
Er... I still want to continue my life. :oops: I know that I'm so selfish, but... if i let my baby born, who will look after my baby? :wacko:

Q: If you knew your child would be born with mental illness, severe deformities like missing hands, feets, etc., or even conjoined at the heads, sides, etc., would you still give birth?)
Er... no! :oops: I do not know. Maybe yes. As shouling said, my child is my child, no matter what. ^^

[pop]

abortion could be right or wrong
i's all up to the mother's decision...

if you abort the baby, some people will say that u are a murderer
but think again, perhaps the mother have already thought about the baby's future
if she thinks that the baby will only lead a disastrous and suffering life then it's not really that inhuman to make that choice of abortion..
all mothers would surely have a special bond with the baby...and the mothers will surely think about the baby too when making serious decisions like this

except that the mother is insane and do not care for her baby, and abort the baby on purpose of angering somebody such as the faher then it's wrong ..

[freebird_brown]

i am a christian. i'd like to say i'm devout, but reality speaks otherwise. my religion probably has some effect jus cuz i have all these peple around me telling me that it's wrong.
for careless sex, abortion is wrong. the girl should have the child and take care of it herself but i understand taht oftentimes this is not an option cuz the guy is irresponsible or the girls too yougn watever. so i thin kthey should give it up for adoption. but people shoul dnever abort their kid cuz of their own stupidity. everyone knows the risks and so should take responsiblity for their actions.
on the question of my life vs. my kid. i dunno. it's so hard. i'm leaning more to my life despite the selfishness of it all. the thing that makes me think twice is wehther i can tolerate myslef after i've killed my kid.
and w/ deformities... i'd probably ahve the kid but i'd rathe rnot take care of it. it's sort of mean but i don't think i'd be a good mother to it if it had deficiencies like that. but still, difficult to answer.

[sundae]

well i'm chrisitan, but defintley not devout as i don't go to church, i just believe there is a god out there looking over us, so my religon doesn't play a part in my opinion at all.

of course we should have the right to have an abortion, as a female, it is oUR body, who gives someone else the right to decided what to do with our body and our life.

ok i disapprove if the woman in question falls pregnant because she is just really careless and doesn't bother with protection and stuff, but sometimes accidents do happen, and yes that accident is alive and could bring you much joy in the future, but some people aren't ready for that.

i'm 19 turning 20 this year, and if i fell pregnant although i would be scarred for life, i would probably most likely get an abortion, i'm not ready for that type of responsibility and my immaturity would hinder the child's life anyway.

and as stated before, some pregnancy's are the result of rape or incest, in the case of incest your child would be born deformed and in into a world where he/she will be judged cruely at no fault of their own.

i know ending a life is wrong, and some compare it to murder. but sometimes it is just necessary, can you imagine being born into a world where your parents hate you and think that you're the reason for all the misgivings, and that the world would be a much better place if you had never been born...well in that case you might as well have never been born

[KendoTiger]

If you can't give them a chance at a decent life, why bring them into this world at all? That is the real cruelty ~ forcing someone into a shit life without them getting a chance to choose for themselves. This applies to birth and the deformity issue.

Still, making up your mind after the child really is a child ~ beating heart and brain functions ~ is a load of crap. You should have stuck to your beliefs in the first place.

I would definitely choose the life of my child before my own.

[hisashiluv14]

For abortion rights. Ultimately, I'm for the freedom to choose.

[midori]

I'm agnostic so my opinion on abortion won't be religious-based.

There's been much talk about abortion rights especially after Justice Sandra Day O'Connor resigned from her position. And with President Bush electing a conservative judge to the supreme court, we just might have that decision reversed.

As Justice O'Connor once said about abortion, "to preserve the rights of women." I agree with that because the 14th amendment grants us our right to privacy and that includes abortion.

Aside from the emotional and moral aspects of this topic, we need to face the reality of abortion.

[x_La_paix_De_Lame_x]

I'm a born and raised catholic at heart and mind.

I kno a friend who told me that one the people i really cared about had an abortion.

Which is really strange...cause like she was so nice and never seemed like the person who would do anything like that. but she killed the child of her own free choice....

basically she was scared of what others would think

Yes it seems fair that the child must be aborted it if it endangered the life of the the mother. but the consituation in the US. says that an abortion can take place if it endagers the 'health' of the mother.

Thus...it is far to vague. many have come up with the term it endangers their 'mental' rather than physical, and how it would affect their lives in considertion. (they did it cause it wasn't convient for them to have one at that moment.)

If you don't want the baby why not think of other choices rather such a dramatic step.? why not opt for adoption? It's not the child's fault what happened to someone. give it a chance to live.

[strandedjasmine]

I am buddhist...and though I would not myselfundertake an abortion, I do not force my beliefs onto anyone or use them to judge other people..

I do believe in right of choice and personal responsibility. I think in today's world there are too many do-gooders who inflict their overly righteous beliefs onto others and not enough people who do any GOOD..

Abortion is a traumatic experience but also watching a child grow up without any hope in this world (severely disabled children), without any love (baby raised by no-hopers who wont give up their parental rights) is also as traumatic. It is not an easy decision and it also does not come without consequences. Right for life is one thing...but right to a decent life..a worthwhile one....has everyone forgotten about this? This life is not just about living but how you live....

With all things, there no doubt have to be guidelines.......but if it is within those guidelines...let people make their own choices and let them deal with the consequences that may come about...

[masterxkae]

Well, I'm Christian. I'm not saying I'm extremely devoted; for I am not. But I do believe that abortion is wrong. But I also think under certain circumstances, abortion should be allowed. For example. Rapes.

[bstandards]

I am atheist, I don't believe in anything :).

Something I like, well not like but tend to bring up in these debates, I think it's a contradiction in most situations to say its okay to have abortion in some circumstances while not in others. If you are the baby, you're getting killed either way, you're still losing a life, no matter what circumstances you are killing something before it even has a chance to live. I find that to be similar to killing cancer patients before they had a chance to try to beat it. So what if you're poor/raped/etc.? The only circumstances that work around this MIGHT be if it threatens the life of the mother or the baby has some inherent disease or such that would affect their standard of living.

All that said though, I still think people should make decisions that are best for themselves not for reasons of morality but for reasons of self progression. So I am for abortions and if my wife/g/f wanted one for a legitimate reason I'd support it.

question to answer: Would you rather let your baby be born, and you die. Or abort the baby so you can live?
Abort the baby so my significant other could live no doubt.

another question: If you knew your child would be born with mental illness, severe deformities like missing hands, feets, etc., or even conjoined at the heads, sides, etc., would you still give birth?)
I want to say I would abort the child because the stress on the child and the family is so great, but I still am grey on if I could go through with it. If I was in a strict logical sense of mind I think I would since I see more reasons to do it than not, but morally its a really difficult decision.

[liwei_jay]

Abortions rights huh..
okay..
here's what i think..

Do whatever u think is right..
hmmm.. i knw that for most religions they dun allow or encourages ppl to do abortion..
of cuz.. i'm not saying it's a good thing too..
i mean.. what i think is that depends on the situation..
if you r raped and dun wanna keep the baby..
if you thinks that you can't afford to keep the baby..
if you think you can't take care of the baby..
or there's unforeseen circumstances (like the baby has sicknesses or it might endanger the mother if she keeps the baby) that dun allow u to keep the baby..
i think.... all and all it still comes back to yourself.. :wink2:

originally posted by bstandards
another question: If you knew your child would be born with mental illness, severe deformities like missing hands, feets, etc., or even conjoined at the heads, sides, etc., would you still give birth?)
I want to say I would abort the child because the stress on the child and the family is so great, but I still am grey on if I could go through with it. If I was in a strict logical sense of mind I think I would since I see more reasons to do it than not, but morally its a really difficult decision

so it is for me too...
i dun think i'm brave / heartless enough to kill my baby..
no matter whats.. it is still a living..
but then what ifs.. the baby has illness.. that means if i bring him to this world.. i'll juz bring him to suffer.. sth i wouldn't want to see too.. :cry:
haha.. confusing huh.. ??
to myself too.. i find it confusing..
maybe someone can help enlighten me too..
but i knw my final decision would be to abort it..
cuz i knw i dun have the heart to see him/her grew up wif deformaties..
only to blame me for bringin him/her to this world to suffer.. or be discriminate or laugh at..

[charmian]

abortion should only be done out of 3 circumstances

1) if the girl is rape
2) if the child is going to be born with defects
3) if keeping the baby, will led to your death

cant afford the baby? all you have the do, is to work or rather keep the baby and put it up for adoption. Cant take care of the baby? All you need is some knowledge which can be learnt as time pass.

i'm not for abortion. The baby, regardless how small it is, have a right to live since its created by parents. Whether or not they are taking up the responsibility is ultimately not a choice, but a decision made by them both when they chose to have sex.

nobody forced them to have sex without protection right?

[OLive_aNN]

abortion should only be done out of 3 circumstances

1) if the girl is rape
2) if the child is going to be born with defects
3) if keeping the baby, will led to your death

cant afford the baby? all you have the do, is to work or rather keep the baby and put it up for adoption. Cant take care of the baby? All you need is some knowledge which can be learnt as time pass.

i'm not for abortion. The baby, regardless how small it is, have a right to live since its created by parents. Whether or not they are taking up the responsibility is ultimately not a choice, but a decision made by them both when they chose to have sex.

nobody forced them to have sex without protection right?

Errrr, I'm not really agree with the first one. If the mother is raped, it is not the baby's fault. He or she still has a right to live.
That's just my opinion. :happy:
I personally 'say no to abortion'. :tongue: even if the baby is still one cell big, he or she is a living thing. The cell will eventually develop into a more complex creature. It is a living thing. It is just inappropriate to kill those innocent babies. :wink2:

[charmian]

OLive_aNN : Maybe true, but i dont think any woman would actually want a rapist child when she was forced for sex. And well, maybe you're right. :P

and again. If abortion is not an option, many unwed mothers would be throwing their babies into dustbins and discarding the babies in places. then urgh another social problem.

[strandedjasmine]

If abortion is not an option, many unwed mothers would be throwing their babies into dustbins and discarding the babies in places. then urgh another social problem.

you are right charman..the last thing we want is backstreet abortions because people are scared, afraid and desperate..that will create more problems for society to deal with..

There will never be an end to this debate...nothing will satisfy everyone..hence people should live their lives as to what they believe is right for them..because it is tiring and frustrating and darn right a bloody nuisance trying to please everyone..that is something I have learnt over the years..

whatever action you take..be well aware of the consequences, physical, emotional, social..etc.......

[mercurialvapor24]

im a catholic and religion does play a part in my stance on abortion, but only insofar as i learned to care about these issues and study it because of it. that is to say, if i converted right now, i would still be against abortion because it is murder. period. some people say money is an issue, or rape can change the circumstances, or "you should do what u want to." but if i were to kill someone's baby, would people still say that? i would be thrown in jail. in aristotelian philosophy and logic, there exists what we call potency and act. a fetus WILL become a child. that is why in american law if u kill a pregnant woman u are charged with double homicide. even the state acknowledges that the woman is carrying a baby. as for backalley abortions being a social problem, the government has the right and the obligation to legislate morality. just because killing till goes on doesnt mean we should legalize it. same with rape and drugs. by outlawing something we take an outward stance on it, and teach children as well as the other citizens what is right and wrong.

[mein]

Well, I don't think I'm against the abortion. Pregnancies resulting from rape and incest should never have been gone through by any woman because the horror of the circumstances. And according to the Ethical Egoism rule, everyone should act in their self-interest. That doesn't mean selfish but you're just doing the best thing for yourself. Another rule which supports the idea is the utilitarianism rule. An act should be carried out if it brings out the best consequences for everyone. If abortion can settle the problem,why not? But many people will be arguing about how valuable a life is even though it's only a foetus. However, it can only be considered a human life until birth right? Well, it actually depends on the mother herself. She has her own rights to make decision.

[u154801]

i chinese and dont believe in anything but maybe a bit budahism becoz of parents
i think its ok to abort

becoz sometimes it maybe an accident or maybe once the child is born the parents cannot support the child ...or maybe the child is what causes the parents to seperate becoz they never planned it. I know its a life but sometimes it can bring more stress and touble to the exisiting lives

[karyn531]

i think it's not right to abort though i know it could make people's lives difficult to have unplanned pregnancy. But still, it's unplanned and it's not a good excuse to abort. As my principles, do what u wish and suffer the consequences. Abortion is killing a life, an innocent life at that. That's a very bad thing. I'm a christian and it's against the Bible scriptures to commit abortion, which is part of murder as in one the 10 commandments.

I was conceived outside marriage. If my mother had aborted me, which she could have done particularly with her physical condition (she wasn't very well, backbone problems and the doctor said she should not be pregnant but she was anyhow) then I wouldn't be here now. So I should be grateful my mum had the sense to choose not to abort despite having to suffer more than a normal woman would just to retain me in her womb.

[KendoTiger]

I'll just throw these out there ~ not all of them reflect my opinion.

1. How can you classify the child as alive? When the first brain functions start? When the heart starts? When it can live independently? Or how about when it gains the sense of self?

Sense of self:

What separates euthenasia of dogs and other animals from abortion? Scientifically speaking, what separates man from beast is the conception of self, of I. Animals can feel pain, they can react to stimuli, but it is the understanding of self-awareness that make us more.

This leads to understanding past, present, and future ~ another trademark of being human. Animals do not have a sense of past, present or future. Take squirrels for instance ~ small rodents that store food for the winter. This is an instinct and not a trait of conciousness for the following reason. They can not predict how long winter will last, and ration the food to fit it.

Yet it has been found that it takes children until the age of two (usually) before they can look in the mirror and realize they are staring at themselves ~ a test to determine if they realize that they exist, and are not just watching other things that exist. So until the child can recognize that, are they not alive?

Also, poverty occurs when people cannot plan or manage well, when they have a lack of the ability to ration what they have. So does that mean they are inhuman?

Independence:

What about classifying humans as when they can live independently from the mother ~ such as through a C. Section. Unfortunately, as technology expands, the time of developement has been steadily reduced, so that premature babies have a good chance of surviving, even if removed fairly early in pregnancy (2nd trimester - 3rd trimester). As it is dependent on the rate of technology, is it really stable enough to use it to classify a life?

- Heart and Brain

This leaves heart and brain functions. For the heart, it has been proven that the body can sustain itself (as long as the heart beats), even if the human is completely brain dead ~ such as Terry Schiavo. When they lose all semblence of a mind, or before they have gained it, how can you say they are alive?

What about the brain? Animals have brain functions too ~ so are you saying its wrong to kill any animal, no matter how euthenistically? What about your hamburger? The cow was able to feel pain as it died.

2. coming soon - microeconomics paper due in a few hrs, gotta work on it.

[jaychou_21]

Being a devout Christian, I do believe that abortion is evil.
However,there are certain circumstances wherein I think abortion should be done.
In some cases abortion is the only way to save lives,
may it be either that of the mother or the child or both.
But I think it is not right to abort the child inside a mother's womb if it's unwanted
say the child she's bearing is a product of rape or incest.
I've always been horrified by images of fetuses thrown in thrash cans,in plastic bags,etc.
And I believe that the child,no matter what the consequences are,does not deserve to die.
So in my stand,I will only say that abortion can help in some extreme cases
wherein the life of the mother is in danger.
But having unwanted pregnancy is not a sufficient reason to kill a new life inside your body.

[isaac_1988]

i am a buddhist but i think that every human has their own basic rights. society cannot deprive people of their own choice. if they want to abort children, then let them be.

rights to abortion is like the right to enthuansia(the right to die if in great suffering). however, i feel that they have to be counselled to see if they are in the right state of mind. some people might not want the child because it reminds them of some undesirable memory.


yes, the baby might not have a chance to live in this world and considered tantamount to murder.But if no one close to the children has the capability to take care of the child, then what's the point of having the child if you are not determined enough to press on with life.


also, having a child could seriously jeopardise people hopes of flying high in their career early in their life.if they chose at this moment to give up their child,it is irreponsible for them to do such an act.

some people out there have to fork out thousands of dollars just to have a chance to have kids.. yet, they are killing an unborn child.. is this world fair?

however, there is also possibility of people not having enough money to take care of a child..diapers,milk,toys , so many things to take care of.they also have to save for his education.so, i think rights should be given for them to decide, but only on a case to case basis so that rights will not be misused.

[SimpleBlackHumor89]

alota people seem to think that an abortion is killing a 'human'. it's not, at least not in the first term. if a mother is close to her due date, n then decides to abort the baby. damn, it's disgusting, but still happens.

as long as it happens in the early stage, abortion is simply the process of destroying "cells" just like anti-biotics.

[Sha]

Ok, I'm not gonna answer all those questions cos I can't be bothered right now.

I'm just gonna say that if you can't afford the baby or aren't at a point in life where if you fell pregnant, you can keep the baby, don't have sex. Just don't do it.

It pisses me off when chicks get themselves pregnant then they go and have an abortion. I don't care what kind of situation it is, I don't agree with it. You are killing a human being and I don't buy into that crap about a foetus not being a human until it's reached a certain age. Bulls*** That's just people trying to justify their actions and make themselves feel better.

Yes, I am a strong Buddhist but I have felt this way since as long as I can remember. And I've just started going to the Temple around 5 years ago. I don't think religion is the only factor, it comes down to morals and your sense of what's right and wrong.

And I think abortion is wrong. How can you kill something you created?

[yingyi]

im a catholic. and ive watched abortion video twice. when i was watchin it, i swore i wont abort my baby... but if its impossible to not abort the child, hmmm i'd ask doctors/experts bout that. i guess i'd abort the child (yikes >.<) cos, if i'm dead and the baby is still alive, who will take care of her??? if i abort the child, i'd have another chance to make another baby.. (lol)... well.. im only 17 and i dont think i'd do this if im really pregnant~its a really hard decision.. cos abortion is killing. killing someone inside your body who hasnt even seen this world yet...
yea i agree with sha, just dont do sex before married. and yea i also hate girls who easily say 'just abort the child'. maybe they shd watch the abortion video first... *sick*

[lil~jo]

I am against abortion.
yes I am a christian, but my reasons for being against it is not just because of the ten commandments.

Think very carefully about this...
The baby...is a living child...you commit murder if you do this...it is an actual crime.
Yes, for some people the thought not bringing up the child properly frightens them. They are either going to be singleparent or are much too old to have children as they may not see they grow up.
Many people believe its alright to abort if they are too young to concieve.
But wait a minute...if you got into bed with another man...is it not your fault?

If however you were indecently assulted and became pregnant, I can understand the situation...it was not your fault, and you don't know what your child might come out to be, hence the need of an abortion.

I suggest for all to go through with the preganancy. The child is a gift...do you chuck out your gift without so much as a look at it? No...you give it away as soon as you've seen it, hoping it would be used better in another place with another person...
That should be your decision on what happens to your child. Send it out for adoption...many couples unable to conceive would love your child, and take care of them.
One other reason to abort is if you know your child will be disabled in a manner which is inhumane or will need care for their whole life. I greive with those who are in that situation. In that case, abortion is alright, if you believe you will not live long enough to look after them with love and care for their whole life.
In conclusion...abortion....unless thought through properly with the advice from all perspectives is inhumane.
Think it through properly...see whether it is really worth ending anothers life.
...if its a perfect child....why not embrace him/her....you will not regret it.

[babyxv]

I'm pro-choice and for me, the reason is simple- the decision to keep or not keep the baby is a private matter that shouldn't have to be decided by people outside the family; why should the government interfere?

[hil_sky]

Yes, it's rude to kill innocent lives. But if the couple can't afford to take care of the baby, that's going to make the baby's life miserable... or maybe the baby would be a criminal and then... yeah...

[ask4more_jay]

i'm christian. i think abortion is wrong. we have no right to take away the life of an innocent baby. i think it's really wrong.

[kaye21]

im a christian too.
but i firmly believe in Pro-choice. its up to the mother to decide. society cannot make her choose. SOciety will not raise her children.

abortion for medical reasons is my Pro Choice argument...choosing quality of life for the mother and the baby...but sometimes miracles can happen...thats what's best about being a Christian in all these issues...

[li-yin]

i, like kaye, believe that it's the choice of the mother.. if she wants to do it.. then we should let her do it.. but then i still think that she needs to justify her action..

i think there should be no need for abortion if the baby is well and healthy. however if it's not, for example, having seriously deformed parts of the body, then maybe it would be the best to abort it.

who would their baby to come out without legs but a mermaid's tail? without hands but a pair of butterfly wings? without ears but weird looking holes? etc ect. not only would the mother suffer. it's so sad to see that the baby has to go through life like this. it would be so unfair!

therefore, i strongly believe that abortion is permitted if circumstances are justifiable.

[kaye21]

thanks yi-lin
JCVG!

counselling and education will also play a key role in decision-making...oftentimes mothers (especially the young moms) often feel guilt and a sense of abandonment when they do decide...

[scarletwillow]

i'm christian. i think abortion is wrong. we have no right to take away the life of an innocent baby. i think it's really wrong.

If you use Christianity as justification I hope you're also anti-war, anti death penalty, and all of that rot.

And babies aren't innocent. And heck, it's not even a baby you're aborting. It's a fetus, an aggregate of cells with no mental capacity.

I'd much rather abort an unwanted child than live a terrible life supporting it.

Oh, here's a fun statistic: about 60% of conceptions in the United States are aborted.

[intransit]

My stand on religion is that it's all the same and all religions come back to the same thing, belief in a greater being to add some meaning to life. I respect those who have a religion and there's nothing wrong with believing in one but don't use your religion as an excuse for being anti or pro abortion because we are discussing these on a level field.

I don't believe in religion and as a non-religious person, I believe abortion shouldn't be so looked down upon. A mother has the right to abort a baby growing in her because it is HER body and HER choice and no one else's.

Why do I see it this way? I think abortions should be legal because when it was illegal, it pushed many women to go to backyard abortionists who basically gave them abortions on the kitchen table. Butchers who did it on the side for extra money could have been one of these people. These backyard abortionists killed hundreds of people because they didn't have the medical skills to do it properly and they were extremely dirty which caused infection and killed women. What's better? Kill one life or two? I'd rather women have the right to abortions then be forced to go to one of these backyard abortionists.

People will have a million different reasons for their choices and I think we should just stay out of their business.

Sorry if sound a bit random, it's jsut a few of my thoughts mushed up into one post...

[hellokitty]

I am a Christian...and I try to be a good Christian..ie. devoted to God...so theoretically therefore i am against women having the rights to abort their child...BUT...i think a women can abort her child if:

- she does not have the economic strength to support the child:
ie, the family is really too poor;
- the mother's life is in danger...but in a mothers point of view, a child is just as important as their life..so it will depend on the mother;
- the woman became pregnant because of rape, and the mother is just too ashamed;

I think it is wrong to abort a baby if:
- the mother just does not have to time to look after the baby;
- the father is unresponsible, nothing wrong being a single mother;
- the child is going to be born with a disability, God created every human...you should love a child with a disability the same as you would with one without a disability. but then that just brings in more arguments..o.O ;
- the mother just doesnt want a baby anymore, aborting the baby is just cruel.

I think woman should have rights to abort to some extent. But this debate is just too hard to say whether women should have the rights or not. Because there are just so many cases where you will pity the pregnant women.

[lil~jo]

scarlet...so you're thinking more about yourself, rather than that bunch of cells...
That bunch of cells is still living...

However if you did look to my previous post in here...
I am against abortion..
But in certain circumstances I would allow it.
ie. In cases of rape...
or...if you are unable to bring up the child.

However I wouldn't abort if I would live a terrible life...
thats just selfish...you produced the child...and must...take responsibilty

[xiaohei88]

I maybe be a Muslim..but i wont use my religion to say that abortion is wrong...

I'm saying this as a person..a human...i believe..that abortion is wrong... abortion to me is the same as murder... if you're saying that the mother is not yet ready..not yet financially secured or emotionally.. get this.. its her who brought this up... unless she was raped..then thats another issue.. to girls who get themselves pregnant due to premarital sex... you got your ownself into his problem and by aborting this baby..your own flesh and blood.. its adds up more sin to your doing... you did your wrongs... and by aborting this baby...it wont help much either...

I would suggest giving out for adoption seriously... if you think you cant have this baby cause you're not financially stabled.. give it to couples who are not able to create one their own.. this is another way you can bay back to yourself.. at least you know that the baby is good hands..

[bebyjaystaa]

"abortion is murder no matter what you call it" -dancing naked

i am christian and not only because of my religion i'm against abortion. i seriously think that the baby that you're killing..no matter how many months..it's still a human being. why do murderers have to go to prision for killing someone and doctors dont? because of the age? the months of how old the baby is? it's not fair to the baby. but yea.. iono. i guess the mother has to decide for herself. if you get pregnant at a young age..it's your fault and you gotta deal with it. dont think you can just kill it and get it over with. forget it? haha. it'll prolly come back haunting you and you'll just regret it.

[karyn531]

It is NOT right to abort. It's a cruel, heartless selfish action (sorry)

Just take a look at these pictures. I received them just this morning. These pictures have been circulated through the Net and they are genuine.

Edit
Warning : These images might appear explicit to sensitive people. I was first brought to attention by a request PM, so I edited it. Thank you, pei dear.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/karyn531/Abortion%20Pictures/1.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/karyn531/Abortion%20Pictures/2.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/karyn531/Abortion%20Pictures/5.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/karyn531/Abortion%20Pictures/6.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/karyn531/Abortion%20Pictures/7.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/karyn531/Abortion%20Pictures/9.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/karyn531/Abortion%20Pictures/10.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/karyn531/Abortion%20Pictures/11.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/karyn531/Abortion%20Pictures/12.jpg

This is what happened to babies who are aborted. Do you seriously want to do that to your own life and blood?

[kamceng]

karyn531, thanks for the picture....
OMG, the pictures are so sad.......
i mean, you don't really have to abort the child...
how'd you know you'll live a terrible life if the baby is born....
child is the most precious gift for a mother.....
but if you still feel you'll live a terrible life if you keep that baby,
then send the baby to a welfare house after giving birth it.....
or giving it to somebody to adopt....
the baby still has a bright future, you know....
better have a suffering giving birth to the baby than abort and kill the baby....

[karyn531]

You're welcome, kamcheng. I just realised I never read the first post of this thread. How careless of me.

Would you rather let your baby be born, and you die. Or abort the baby so you can live?
I think I'll choose the former. I'll love my child too much. Even though I might be too young in terms of age and maturity to answer this, but I just know I'll love my child so I'll NEVER kill it no matter how difficult.

If you knew your child would be born with mental illness, severe deformities like missing hands, feets, etc., or even conjoined at the heads, sides, etc., would you still give birth?
Yes. Give them a chance. God brought them into the world for a reason. I'm not a very devout Christian, but I have a soft heart. :oops: I'll never be able to live with my conscience killing innocent babies. Especially my own child.

No, I'm not pregnant. But I have an adopted daughter and I love her as my own. Hehehe.

[kamceng]

karyn531, my name is kamceng, not Kam Cheng...:-)

i still want to add something here.....
well, if you're a pregnant mother who are dealing with some kind of serious illness that could kill you if you give birth to the baby, then i think you have the right to choose....
but some mothers choose to bear the baby....
save your life first, then save the baby.....
but the problem is, i think the abortion which we're talking here is the abortion by mothers who really want to abort the unwanted child, right?
like the teenage girls who had a one night stand and accidently became pregnant, then it is wrong to abort the baby......
i think there is differences between unwillingly abortion and willingly abortion, right?

by the way, karyn531, you have an adopted daughter?
but your profile tells that you're 15....
hmm, i don't think someone at 15 will have an adopted daughter already....:brows:
what's your real age??

[karyn531]

I'm sorry, kamcheng.
My real age is, I'll be 16 in 2 days time, 31st May.Despite my age, why can't I have an adopted daughter? She's a member of JCNET as well, but too bad she isn't online or else I will ask her to come here and clarify... NOW. You may call me Karyn. But this thread isn't to socialise.

teenage girls who had a one night stand and accidently became pregnant, then it is wrong to abort the baby
There is an argument to that. You see, teenage girls are still in school, have to study and a lot of responsibilities as a student in front of them and they are not even in college yet. Don't you think it'll be extremely difficult for a teenage girl to be a mother? It's almost impossible. Being a mother is a full-time job. Seriously. Even adults, as they work, they think about their children. It's exhausting.

For teenage girls, if they get pregnant, they face a lot of difficulties.
1) It'll be extremely hard to study and be pregnant at the same time.
2) Peer pressure. Friends and enemies alike will taunt.
3) Love issue. Many guys dump their girlfriends or refuse to marry them.
4) Legal issues. Some countries do not allow young girls to be pregnant without a lot of legal difficulties. The father of the baby may get into a lot of trouble or even be charged of rape.
5) Parental support (or lack of) Some pregnant girls are lucky to have support of their parents. Others are not. Whichever way, they make their parents extremely disappointed.
6) Self-conflick. They may hate themselves, sink to depression, and some pregnant girls even attempt suicide. Sadly, some succeeded. And they may even hate the baby. Being pregnant at such a age, sometimes they'll feel the world is against them. And that is never a good feeling.

Well. There are other reasons too. But while some girls are strong, some girls aren't. Sometimes abortion in this kind of case is understandable and inevitable.

But I'm still against it. Easy for me to say, I know, but the best thing is not to get yourself pregnant. And if you do, try to at least bear for 9 months and them give your baby up for adoption.

Many mothers do not regret this decision. In fact, years later when they are grown up and reunited, they even enjoy each other's company and thank God.

[judes]

holy crap those pictures are a wake up call.
i was still half asleep but now i am wide awake.

i didn't want to touch this thread with a ten foot pole but i figure i should drop in and make a comment.

those teenage girls that you talk about though, karyn. some of them do not have developed bodies so that having a baby after 9 months would make them infertile for the rest of their lives or at least weaken their bodies to such an extent that they will be sick for a long time.

i do agree with you though. abortion may not be right, but sometimes there are reasons to go through with abortion. so i think it should be an option available to women.

but anybody who uses abortion as a form of birth control gets a big thumbs down.

[KendoTiger]

For every picture you put up, I can put up a hundred like it - of the starving and the sick, the suffering: the unwanted children of the third world. Before you defend the rights of the unborn, how about offering a hand to those who are in need right now? You say that it is dehumanizing to terminate fetuses before they can feel pain, yet what happens when a child is forsaken and given to the government?

How about first figuring out how to help those who are already alive? I'd settle for that.

-------
My biggest problem is not with the pictures - but with the captions. Also, I am not in support of late-term abortions.
----------

For the first two pictures - eugenics aside - during abortion, this would never happen (unless done by non-medical personel). Also, the caption claims that the fetus was alive and able to feel pain - this is extremely misleading. We do not know if the fetus even had a heartbeat, let alone the ability to feel pain. It's similar to mutilating a corpse, and then claiming that they experienced severe pain before death.

The third picture is just down-right preachy. First, I want know what country they say it's from - because the operating room is unlikely that of a medical institution in America. I actually had to consult with one of my friends (at JHU as a med student, where I was also invited to attend) - and based on the development of the fetus, and the "tools" present - including the plastic tub, this is unlikely to be anywhere in American Medical Institutes. The use of "citizen" is incredibly charged, and is actually a misuse of the word.

The fourth not only claims that the fetus is human - which is still debatable - but also extrapolates to assume that anyone who is "weak" will be murdered. I'm sorry, this is ludicrous. I'm not paying it any more attention.

In the 5th picture, the "perfectly formed hands" statement is a lie - nerve and muscle growth does not reach completion at such an early point in developement. Even months after birth, children do not have full control of their fine-motor movements.

I love how the sixth picture has "Ths" instead of "This" - you can tell that it is from a reliable source. The caption also claims - which is debatable - that the fetus is human. Also, due to the developement of the fetus, saline solution did not "cause" that to the skin - a complete lie. First, saline solution is used as an intravenous drip for patients, is used to treat dehydration, and is more importantly - completely harmless to even partially developed skin. Most likely is that the slight osmolarity of the solution (compaired to the blood), made internal hemorrhaging more apparent.

I love how in the 7th picture down, they claim there is a hospital wrist band. This picture is pure tabaloid garbage - so sorry. At least I have some respect for the others.

The eighth, while not doctored - was procured, and set. First, sharps (used needles/glass/etc) are disposed of separately from biohazard/organic materials. For that fact alone, this picture is impossible - at least in America. Secondly, in almost all countries where legal abortion can be performed, it is illegal to dig through disposed medical waste of any nature. That is because it is incinerated before disposal to prevent contamination.

The last is also constructed - at that stage in developement, the human fetus looks no different from that of another animal - even a pig. That is why for medical students, pig-fetuses are used in place of human ones. If you want, I can post pictures later showing how likely this is not a human fetus.
-----

Sigh, more banzai cat's anyone?
c

[karyn531]

KendoTiger. You don't need to attack me like that. I'm not the one who circulated these pictures through Internet. I'm merely a recipient who was touched to see these pictures and thought I would share it with others.

Before you defend the rights of the unborn, how about offering a hand to those who are in need right now? You say that it is dehumanizing to terminate fetuses before they can feel pain, yet what happens when a child is forsaken and given to the government?
Are you suggesting that the government ill-treats them? Granted, they don't lead normal lives like most of us. So, killing an innocent one is better than to give them a chance in life? There are unwanted children who became successful and happy you know. Not all do, but no one has the power to make everyone happy. But I think that giving a chance is better than not giving one at all. It's up to the child to make the most of his or her life.

How about first figuring out how to help those who are already alive? I'd settle for that.

That's NOT the purpose of this thread, just in case if you haven't realised.

~~

For that fact alone, this picture is impossible - at
least in America.
Not everyone is born in America. What doesn't happen in America (or so you claim) could happen in scores of other places. America isn't the whole world. There are 5 other continents with billions of people. There's nothing on those pictures saying ALL of them are taken in America.

For the first two pictures - eugenics aside - during abortion, this
would never happen (unless done by non-medical personel).
Excuse me. How many of the mothers who abort, in this world, actually goes to a recognised doctor? Maybe in YOUR developed country most of them do. But in a developing country, like mine, a lot still visits "doctors" on the street. I'm not saying it's a wise thing to do. I'm saying it happens. And imagine abortion in a country like Africa, or China. Millions of them are poor people stiving just to make ends meet. How could they all afford the fees of doctors in the lengue of American doctors?

I'm not in the position to debate with your knowledge in the medical field. But what I want to tell you is, I repeat once again, every child in my opinion should be given a chance. I have the right to say this because of my background. When my mother was pregnant with me she was young, in college and unmarried. My father didn't want me. He didn't stop seeing me but he doesn't support me neither financially nor in terms of moral support. You people don't know how lucky some of you are to have good families to live in. My mother and I are so poor sometimes she had to work 7 days a week plus overtime. But she persevered. She chose not to abort me despite being tempted to at one point. Don't you see, if she had aborted me in the beginning my life could have been so much better. Instead, she chose to sacrifice and gave me a chance, and for that, no matter how hard my life is, I am very grateful, I love her, and I'll do my best to change our lives by studying hard. In the end, it all boils down to the mother's decision. I am giving you a first-hand account because I don't like the tone of your post. If my mother had forsaken me in the first place, like how you obviously thought a woman like her should, I wouldn't be here right now.

< Please add to my reps if you like what I'm saying, because I tend to lose them when I get into arguments :/ ~<3 Thanks!
By the way, considering the rudeness of your post (sorry, but it offends me) I'm not suprised that you lose your rep points. I know it is very direct for me to say so and you may not like it, but your problem is not so much the contents of your post but the way your say it. Do please think about other people's feelings before you plunge head-long in. I bet you have offended a lot of people like how you are offending me now that's why they took away your rep points.

[DragonPrince]

I see one good reason why you lose points, Tiger. Maybe you shouldn't be posting those offensive comments. I believe that its nothing to do with animals and such...I don't see why you must attack others like fighting for your life. Peace-live in harmony.

[kamceng]

karyn, you came from malaysia?
i just realised it after i read your banner......
and i know it's not easy being an unmarried mother in malaysia......
and i really salute your mother for having the courage to raise you.......:bow:
you study hard, okay? make your mother proud of you.....
well, i need to study,too, hehe.....

and about the hardships if they give birth to the baby and stuff...
for me, being a mother is hard, who says being a mother is easy?
no matter if you're young, old, rich or poor......
well, maybe some mothers hire nanny, but i'm talking about the one who don't.......
but the sufferings will decrease eventually, cause child brings you happiness....
and this is why i salute karyn's mother....
and there's always a government house to protect you and gives you shelter and food....
i mean, abortion is not the final option. we should at least try and find a solution. give birth to the baby first then figure a way to raise the baby.......
don't just abort the baby when you know you're pregnant and unmarried....

[xiaohei88]

Karyn!.. nice debate.. and Tiger be nice will ya.. anyway..off topic!
abortion is not a right.. seriously.. from my opinion.. it should be made illegal..
Abortion is similar to slaughtering inoccent lives... i stand for my believe that abortion is still wrong....

[sagara0510]

still making people angry are we kendo?

*shakes head*

[KendoTiger]

Hilarious - they offend me, I point out how they're wrong, they get pissed because they can't make a defense, and then settle on saying I'm offensive. *rolls eyes*.


If people even approached a debate with a little skeptism, the world would have a lot fewer idiots.

Dragon, I have no idea what you're trying to say. Animals? Attacks? Please explain, because I have no idea what you're talking about.

Hey Sagara - keep to the topic.

---

Karyn - I am not "attacking you" personally, I am attacking your point of view. If you were to reread my post, you'd see that my main problem is with the captions, and the bias within the photography. To sum it up, since my people do not take the time to read carefully, I believe this pictures are purposefully misleading to support a pro-life stance - and I'm chosing to point it out.

KendoTiger. You don't need to attack me like that. I'm not the one who circulated these pictures through Internet. I'm merely a recipient who was touched to see these pictures and thought I would share it with others.

You are the person who posted these pictures in this forum, so it is up to you to take responsibility for them. If I posted lies, even if they were not my own, I would be responsible for retelling them. Notice that almost all of them contain captions in English (as I am aware, only a handful of advanced countries support English as the main language.

So, killing an innocent one is better than to give them a chance in life? ... It's up to the child to make the most of his or her life.

How about first figuring out how to help those who are already alive? I'd settle for that.

Look at the world. Look to all those whose life is consumed by suffering. Rather than give them any thought, you'd rather focus on forcing mothers to bring more children into these conditions? Give them a chance - it's up to them to make what they can of their situation. What about children being born in Darfur? How long do they have to live? Disease, starvation, dehydration, ethnic cleansing, war, corruption, lack of a home or any eduction. Do they even have a chance? What about their brothers and sisters - with a new mouth to feed, what are their chances of survival? How many governments in the world do you think could give a real chance to all of the unwanted children forcibly born into their boundaries?

Not everyone is born in America. What doesn't happen in America (or so you claim) could happen in scores of other places. America isn't the whole world. There are 5 other continents with billions of people. There's nothing on those pictures saying ALL of them are taken in America.

There are actually people residing on all 7 continents. Honestly, I wouldn't have any problem with you posting these pictures if they didn't have the english captions. Without the captions, they're a still-shot in time. Some of them are constructed, or would be misleading if posted here (such as the last two), and I would comment on those. But for the rest, I probably wouldn't have anything to say. Pointing out once again - what you failed to miss - that I am more anti-propoganda than anything.

How many of the mothers who abort, in this world, actually goes to a recognised doctor?...in a developing country, like mine, a lot still visits "doctors" on the street. And imagine abortion in a country like Africa, or China. Millions of them are poor people stiving just to make ends meet. How could they all afford the fees of doctors in the lengue of American doctors?

Did you know that before abortion was legalized, even American women did the same thing? They visited back-alley surgeons who used cruel implements such as smouldering coat hangers to destroy the fetus. This not only created a great risk to the mother's life, but often left them sterile. Now, if abortion were banned, just like before legalization, women would seek it out - that won't change. But instead of giving them a safe alternative that is eugenically sound, you want to force them to this barbaric alternative. As for those who are in a developing country, they already go to unrecognized doctors because they can't afford anything different. What do you think adding another child for them to support will do?

I am giving you a first-hand account because I don't like the tone of your post. If my mother had forsaken me in the first place, like how you obviously thought a woman like her should, I wouldn't be here right now.

Dear, you have the right to any opinion you want. I merely want to make sure that no one is misleading when they try to sway others. Oh, and for your information, I believe in a woman's right to choice - whether or not to keep a pregnancy is completely up to the mother and father. I'm not going to force a woman to abort, or tell her that she is wrong if she choses not to. I'm against other people forcing their opinion on others or misleading them ~ for both sides of this argument.

So please, don't try to put words in my mouth.

By the way, considering the rudeness of your post (sorry, but it offends me) I'm not suprised that you lose your rep points. Do please think about other people's feelings before you plunge head-long in. I bet you have offended a lot of people like how you are offending me now that's why they took away your rep points.

Rude? Please explain. So, by supporting another point of view with a few sentences, and then by disassembling the misleading content of pictures you posted, I am rude? Do I ever attack you directly? Do I ever say being pro-life is wrong? Actually, I tend to lose very few - mainly to people who are upset because I tend to voice all sides of a debate with equal passion. I love how you never look at my position before labeling me as "against" you, and I don't believe that is rude in the least...

For every picture you put up, I can put up a hundred like it - of the starving and the sick, the suffering: the unwanted children of the third world. Before you defend the rights of the unborn, how about offering a hand to those who are in need right now?

[DragonPrince]

Still, someone thinks that its all right to abort a baby. Its murder. I don't know why I am kind enough to even allow a weed to grow on in my pot of soil. I think I respect life a lot. If you are saying that you don't want people to live in suffering, I understand that. But somethings, we cannot control. If we don't want them to live in suffering, we can help them to build a better future instead of destroying it.

Even mircobes have the right to live...they are part of the world. Without them, we will suffer. Without new live, there is nothing we can depend on. No matter what, we should give everyone a chance. If you don't want a baby, don't try unprotected sex. Simple, right?

[jayx8318x]

Good lord those pictures are graphic. Maybe add a warning, or post links to them instead of posting inline. At least for the people who are eating their lunch and not wanting bloody fetuses thrown in their face.

Well in KendoTiger's defense, to his credit he does stir up controversy to fuel the debate, which is a good thing.

Karyn - I am not "attacking you" personally, I am attacking your point of view.


I haven't read all his posts, but if he's shrewd enough to bring up this point, then I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. That's what a debate is anyways. If you can't handle someone opposing your point of view, then don't debate. Just because someone's POV is different than yours, doesn't make them rude. Do we always have to preface our arguments with some fake goodwill gesture so we're not labeled as such? I personally don't think so. I prefer the in-your-face-jump-right-into-it argument. Beating around the bush just wastes time.

I think the debate between Karyn and Kendo has been very interesting, and they both bring out very good points. So unless there is clear purposefully intent to attack someone's character, name calling, personal insults, etc. pretty much degenerating the purpose of the thread, then I suggest everyone drop the "stop being offensive" ruse. For the most part, this thread is going just the way I wanted it to go.

Back on topic, there's this book called "Freakonomics" in which they talked about what caused the significant crime rate drop in New York City in the 90s. Some attributed it to more cops, stricter laws, etc. but the interesting link was abortion.

It was back in the 70s when the court case of Roe vs. Wade was won, which pretty much allowed for legal abortions. So the argument was that alot of the babies aborted at the time, IF were allowed to live, would have grown up in adverse conditions, exposed to poverty, drugs, etc. But since they were aborted, 20 years later, the age at which most people (those inclined to do so) are criminally active, they were not around to commit the crimes. Contributing to the low crime rate. Pretty interesting theory eh?

[Sugar&Spice]

I don't think that abortion is good in any situation. I know of alot of people who have, a certain illness, and they still live a happy life. Killing a baby because it is ill, is heartless in my opinion.

Killing a baby because you were raped. I think that is also cruel, why kill off your baby because of something terrible that happened to you?! The end result is that the baby growing inside you, is yours. And it deserves a life too.

Aborting a baby because it would be harmful to you. I think that is selfish. While the baby is in your womb, you should already love it, so much that you would die for that baby. It has yet to live, why not give it a chance to live?! All of us love life, and enjoy certain things about life. But what if our parents decided not to have us?! We wouldn't be able to enjoy anything. So why take the pleasure of being able to love, live, and enjoy, from a baby?!

For every picture you put up, I can put up a hundred like it - of the starving and the sick, the suffering: the unwanted children of the third world. Before you defend the rights of the unborn, how about offering a hand to those who are in need right now? You say that it is dehumanizing to terminate fetuses before they can feel pain, yet what happens when a child is forsaken and given to the government?
How about first figuring out how to help those who are already alive? I'd settle for that.
-------
My biggest problem is not with the pictures - but with the captions. Also, I am not in support of late-term abortions.
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For the first two pictures - eugenics aside - during abortion, this would never happen (unless done by non-medical personel). Also, the caption claims that the fetus was alive and able to feel pain - this is extremely misleading. We do not know if the fetus even had a heartbeat, let alone the ability to feel pain. It's similar to mutilating a corpse, and then claiming that they experienced severe pain before death.
The third picture is just down-right preachy. First, I want know what country they say it's from - because the operating room is unlikely that of a medical institution in America. I actually had to consult with one of my friends (at JHU as a med student, where I was also invited to attend) - and based on the development of the fetus, and the "tools" present - including the plastic tub, this is unlikely to be anywhere in American Medical Institutes. The use of "citizen" is incredibly charged, and is actually a misuse of the word.
The fourth not only claims that the fetus is human - which is still debatable - but also extrapolates to assume that anyone who is "weak" will be murdered. I'm sorry, this is ludacris. I'm not paying it any more attention.
In the 5th picture, the "perfectly formed hands" statement is a lie - nerve and muscle growth does not reach completion at such an early point in developement. Even months after birth, children do not have full control of their fine-motor movements.
I love how the sixth picture has "Ths" instead of "This" - you can tell that it is from a reliable source. The caption also claims - which is debatable - that the fetus is human. Also, due to the developement of the fetus, saline solution did not "cause" that to the skin - a complete lie. First, saline solution is used as an intravenous drip for patients, is used to treat dehydration, and is more importantly - completely harmless to even partially developed skin. Most likely is that the slight osmolarity of the solution (compaired to the blood), made internal hemorrhaging more apparent.
I love how in the 7th picture down, they claim there is a hospital wrist band. This picture is pure tabaloid garbage - so sorry. At least I have some respect for the others.
The eighth, while not doctored - was procured, and set. First, sharps (used needles/glass/etc) are disposed of separately from biohazard/organic materials. For that fact alone, this picture is impossible - at least in America. Secondly, in almost all countries where legal abortion can be performed, it is illegal to dig through disposed medical waste of any nature. That is because it is incinerated before disposal to prevent contamination.
The last is also constructed - at that stage in developement, the human fetus looks no different from that of another animal - even a pig. That is why for medical students, pig-fetuses are used in place of human ones. If you want, I can post pictures later showing how likely this is not a human fetus.
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Sigh, more banzai cat's anyone?
c

I beg to differ with you. Your reasoning is flawed, and the only one who is ludacris here is you, and your post. First of all, don't you dare put down anyone else's country and try to elevate America above them, by saying NOT IN AMERICA!! And before you get to wondering where I'm from let me tell you, I'm from America. And alot of crap gose on here, alot of abortions that are unlicenced and inhumane. These things go on in America as well as all over the world. So if you say, NOT IN AMERICA, again that would make you a lier.

I would also like to ask you where you get the idea that the fetus might not have a heartbeat?! That is another area that you know nothing about. At the age of only a few weeks, the cells that form into a mass start to form a certain beat, and soon in about a few days, the rest of the cells start to take on that same beat as it constructs itself. What is that beat?! The heart being formed, and when the fetus is only a mass of cells. once the cells form the first thing it forms is the spine, with attached nerves to it. The only thing that is different about the spine it that it has no protection. Nerves of the spine do what?! It transmitts feelings. So to say that it dose not feel anything, is a closeminded way to look at it. So the baby would feel its legs being pulled off. Just as much as you would if someone pulled your legs off right now.

You are right the fetus can look like that of a pigs, or a chicken. But here is where you are wrong, that is only after 2 weeks. The photos showed the babies to be older then that 11 weeks, with developed limbs. Also just because the baby dose not have all of its functions, dose not mean that its hand is not a human hand.

Also, if the abortion is illegel then the baby would probably not be disposed of properly. Some just throw them away with the trash. Yes even in America.

The truth is always ugly, and it seems like you don't deal with it too offten. The only heart that seems to be out of order, or not working properly is your. Because if you can react like that to those pictures then you need to take a look at yourself and do some re-adjusting. I also think you need to get your facts striaght before you decide to debate. Oh and it was really smart to critise the spelling on the caption, that just shows that you have nothing better to say. Or you would not worry about something as small as that. You need to re-educate yourself.

[KendoTiger]

First of all, don't you dare put down anyone else's country and try to elevate America above them, by saying NOT IN AMERICA!! And before you get to wondering where I'm from let me tell you, I'm from America. And alot of crap gose on here, alot of abortions that are unlicenced and inhumane. These things go on in America as well as all over the world. So if you say, NOT IN AMERICA, again that would make you a lier.


First, please do not put words in my mouth.

Secondly, I have no intention of "elevating" anything - this is completely ficticious and entirely due to your own poor reading. The reason why I mention that it is not up to American Medical Standards is because I am unaware of the medical standards (the finer procedures) of most other countries. As I am not entirely knowledgable about this subject, I point out that I am only correct if this were "done in America". Also, you should note that I refer to official Medical Institutions rather than "every abortion place", as it is impossible to include every circumstance that occurs.

If you don't believe me, please read my other posts in the "Why do American's think they're #1", and previous posts within this thread. Thank you.

I would also like to ask you where you get the idea that the fetus might not have a heartbeat?! That is another area that you know nothing about. At the age of only a few weeks, the cells that form into a mass start to form a certain beat, and soon in about a few days, the rest of the cells start to take on that same beat as it constructs itself. What is that beat?! The heart being formed, and when the fetus is only a mass of cells.

I am not saying that all fetuses at that point in developement lack a heartbeat. Once again, please read more carefully. Or, maybe you can explain why there are stillbirths. Yes, I'll draw on personal experience as well - I came within three months of having a little brother, except that he had no heartbeat. He had developed far past the stages shown in these photos, but despite his growth, he lacked what you say is inherent in his creation.

Also, you should please study what you are talking about again - there is a difference between cellular growth/electrical pulse, and a formed, beating heart. Unless you believe that a heart can exist before cellular differentiation.

once the cells form the first thing it forms is the spine, with attached nerves to it. The only thing that is different about the spine it that it has no protection. Nerves of the spine do what?! It transmitts feelings. So to say that it dose not feel anything, is a closeminded way to look at it. So the baby would feel its legs being pulled off. Just as much as you would if someone pulled your legs off right now.

Wrong. Pain exists through the use of neurotransmitters, which tell the brain that there is something wrong in a certain section of nerves (origin point). First of all, fetal developement has at yet (to my knowledge) not conclusively proven that these neurotransmitters exist at this (the photo's) stage in developement. This is further supported by the lack of transmitter-producing glands within the body. Secondly, in order for any organism to recognize pain, a base neural network has to be established within the brain. Once again, it has yet to be proven that at the shown stage of developement, the fetus does contain such a network. In fact, it has not even been proven that fetuses can respond to the arc reflex - which is the most basic of neural responses.

All in all, it is impossible to assume the fetus feels pain (at this shown stage) with any realistic evidence or theory.

Now, considering I have all of the above mentioned, I am quite sure that I would feel pain. Also, we do not know if the mutilation to the fetus was caused before or after death (although whether it was alive or dead is inconclusive).

You are right the fetus can look like that of a pigs, or a chicken. But here is where you are wrong, that is only after 2 weeks. The photos showed the babies to be older then that 11 weeks, with developed limbs. Also just because the baby dose not have all of its functions, dose not mean that its hand is not a human hand.

My mistake, I guess I do not have as much experience classifying fetal age as you do. But please explain by what you mean when you say "developed". I would also be very greatful if you could classify what you mean by a "human hand".

Also, if the abortion is illegel then the baby would probably not be disposed of properly. Some just throw them away with the trash. Yes even in America.

This is true, in an illegal abortion, it is possible that the fetus would be thown out like this. Which is why I again mention legal/official medical institutions (again, I can only speak for those in America). Yet I would think that this provides more proof for legal abortions.

The truth is always ugly, and it seems like you don't deal with it too offten. The only heart that seems to be out of order, or not working properly is your.

I do not believe the truth has to be ugly. *shrugs* your opinion. I would like to thank you for the insult. You think I am cruel because I believe in pro-choice (read up on btw), which has nothing to do with my comments on the pictures; I think you are wrong because you wish to force your opinion on other people, and if they disagree, you insult them.

Because if you can react like that to those pictures then you need to take a look at yourself and do some re-adjusting. I also think you need to get your facts striaght before you decide to debate.

I am always skeptical when anyone presents something to support their argument - no matter what side of the debate they're on. Also, if you reread, then you'll see my major concern was not with the pictures, which are sad regardless of their origin, but the captions which try to exploit and twist them into misleading people.

Example: what if I were to post a picture of Abe Lincoln (Former President) surrounded by white officers, and then claim he was a racist who hated black people? Underneath, I could put the caption, "If you support Lincoln, you support a racist who doesn't believe black people are good enough to be in the army." Do you get my point? There would be a lot less conflict if everyone approached an issue with a little skeptisism.

Oh and it was really smart to critise the spelling on the caption, that just shows that you have nothing better to say. Or you would not worry about something as small as that. You need to re-educate yourself.

If you were doing a report for school, college, or work, would you use a reference that had misspellings? How about a dictionary that just missed the mark? One of the most obvious signs of poor, shoddy, work are multiple gramatical and spelling errors. I am merely pointing that out because I am educated. Oh, and trust me - I have a lot more experience with genetics and biology than you do.

Please, before insulting me, get your own facts straight. Thank you.

For every picture you put up, I can put up a hundred like it - of the starving and the sick, the suffering: the unwanted children of the third world. Before you defend the rights of the unborn, how about offering a hand to those who are in need right now?

[DragonPrince]

There are so many people who wants kids. I think before we agree to the abortion rights, we should consider allowing the children to live and maybe allowing them to be adopted.

I just feel that abortion is murder, thats all. It does not state that its correct to abort babies in the Bible.

[jakinni]

The problem I have with the pro-life stance is the way that the whole issue is black and white. You're either good (have the baby) or you're bad (abort the baby). Blanket statements does not do justice to the complexity of the situation faced by the woman in that situation with having to make that choice. She has many things to consider such as her ability to raise a child, her own morals and values, and what she thinks is best for herself and her child. By taking away the right to choose, it's essentially forcing women to either have unwanted babies or to resort to underground methods of abortion which may be horrific and scarring to say the least. It's also basically saying, you don't know what's best so we're making the decision for you. We know better than you. Why do people need to be "parented" about what to do with their own bodies? If ýou're not in the other people's shoes, it's really hard to say what they're going through, so it's only right that to have an abortion or not be left up to individual choice. The people who are against abortion are not going to be in that woman's home helping her go through the pregnancy, childbirth, making the decision to whether give the baby up for adoption or not, and will not be there to help her raise the child that she was unsure she was able to care for in the first place. I think it's pretty irresponsible to take away someone's right to choose and then basically let them deal with the consequences alone. In that situation, if the mother is really not ready, it's not only her that will suffer, but the child as well either in the home or in the system. I sometimes feel that many pro-lifers are pro-life because it satisfies their own morals and values, but not so much because of consideration for the future child or the mother. It bothers me when someone forces their own morals and values on others and then sit back with self satisfaction at having been righteous. If you feel something is wrong, then don't do it yourself, but why should someone else with different standards and ideals not be allowed to do it?

[judes]

can i please point out one thing before i go insane? it's LUDICROUS. not ludacris or ludicris or whatever form. i believe ludacris is some rapper's name.

so much stuff to talk about here. *rubs hands together* let's begin.

first off, let's make it clear what my points are: i agree with making abortion available to women. it is the women's choice in weighing the risks at carrying the child through to term. i do not think it is particularily heartless or murder to abort a baby under certain very specific circumstances (which i will list later). but because those circumstances cannot be restricted or protected under law specifically, i would still rather have abortion open to any woman and have some women abuse the ability to have an abortion (i.e. use as birth control) than to not protect the women who require abortions due to many, many reasons.

i will not even go into the argument of fetus/baby or all of the medical arguments regarding the pictures. i am not qualified to say anything about that, therefore i will say nothing.

when an abortion should be available to a woman:
1) when she was raped.
Killing a baby because you were raped. I think that is also cruel, why kill off your baby because of something terrible that happened to you?! The end result is that the baby growing inside you, is yours. And it deserves a life too.
you cannot speak for the women who have been raped and have been through the terrible experience. yes, the fetus is "yours" in a sense that it has half of your genetic DNA, but it also has half the genes of someone who used you in a horrific manner. as a woman myself, i would never, ever ask another woman to bear the burden of carrying a child resulting from a rape. to go through 9 months of pregnancy with all of the morning sickness and the complications that result and also the pain of childbirth for a child that will have to grow up and go through a flawed social system of foster care...

if i were the mother of a 13 year old girl who was raped and became pregnant. i would not tell her that because of what that man did to you, you now have to carry this child because it is your duty and obligation to it. i would not have her experience the trauma of rape, the judgement of others seeing her as a teenage mother without knowing her story, and for her still maturing body to have to bear a child that she did not want and for her to suffer complications due to the childbirth that may make her infertile or may even kill her.

2) if the mother may die.

Aborting a baby because it would be harmful to you. I think that is selfish. While the baby is in your womb, you should already love it, so much that you would die for that baby. It has yet to live, why not give it a chance to live?! All of us love life, and enjoy certain things about life. But what if our parents decided not to have us?! We wouldn't be able to enjoy anything. So why take the pleasure of being able to love, live, and enjoy, from a baby?!

yes, each child is a gift with the opportunity to grow into a wonderful person. however, i would see the mother's life as equally important. my aunt died giving birth to the child that she wanted so much. she bore the child but could not be around to enjoy watching him grow up. my aunt was a sister, a wife, a daughter, a friend. she was more than the carrier of a baby. she has other opportunities to have other children but i do not see the fairness in killing one life for another. you only get one chance at life and it is up to the mother to decide whether she wants to live or to have the baby and risk her death. no one else should decide for her. i stress: the mother has the right to live as well.

3) situations dependant on an individual basis

I don't think that abortion is good in any situation. I know of alot of people who have, a certain illness, and they still live a happy life. Killing a baby because it is ill, is heartless in my opinion.

right. but are you the one to have the illness? think of the fathers or the mothers who kill the child because he/she cannot bear for their children to suffer. it would hurt me to see my children spend the rest of their lives in pain. there is no possible way to speak for every ill person that they live a happy life. i do not know what i will do if i was ever told my child would be very ill when born.

and here is a situation for you: if a woman already has four children and her husband and her are trying to make ends meet. she is a stay at home mom who struggles every day to keep up with her four young children. she finds out that she is again pregnant even though she is on birth control. it may be due to the antibiotics she has to take because of her worsening health. she simply cannot keep her sanity if she has one more child. it would not be fair for the child to grow up in this environment if the mother cannot devote her attention to the child.

i personally know people who have been in foster care and lived in group homes. there are foster parents who only take in children not because they would love them and care for them, but for the extra income that is provided. there are children in group homes who grow up neglected and subject to sexual and emotional and physical abuse from their caregivers or from other orphans.

like kendo said, there are people dying all around the world because of the lack of adequate birth control and of safe abortion clinics. there are people struggling with poverty, with illness, with starvation. instead of bringing more children into the world to grow up under these environments, why not spend the money on saving the lives that are already born? why not use this money to educate people on birth control to prevent these pregnancies from happening in the first place?

when i don't support an abortion:

1) as birth control: i cannot say how much it pisses me off to see girls go off the pill because "it makes them fat" and girls who allow their boyfriends not to wear condoms because "he doesn't like the feeling" and girls who got drunk and said "he took advantage of me" (if it happens once, then fine, sorry that happened to you, if it happens twice...then i would say, stay out of those situations). learn to protect yourself! use the pill / the patch / the shot / the ring. know which antibiotics, vitamins, environment factors, physical factors that may decrease the efficiency of the drug. put the ability of birth control in YOUR HANDS don't leave it up to the boy. have condoms in your purse. don't put yourself in dangerous situations. and if you tell me because the pope says so, tell me where the hell in the bible it says you can't use birth control and then we'll talk.

2) my boyfriend / husband / parents say so: see point 1. learn to take care of yourself. but accidents do happen. one of the reasons i support abortions is that it would break my heart for my child that i give up for adoption to return one day to me and to find out he/she was an accident. i don't know if i could deal with the guilt or the shame. so, i put it in the hands of the mother to decide whether she wants to have the child. if you put yourself in a situation where you could get pregnant, TALK to your significant other. MAKE SURE that he and you are on the SAME PAGE. discuss if you want to have an abortion or if you would have the child and raise him/her or give him/her up for adoption. i know this is easier said than done, but at least talk about it.

it made me uncomfortable too when my boyfriend and i first discussed it. we talked about our financial ability to support the child and our parental obligations. we discussed adoption, our futures, and our living circumstances. i am blessed with a boyfriend who would support me if i chose to have a child and would put his dreams on hold if i wanted to raise him/her. but it would not be fair to him and i also have my own dreams to pursue. i want to be able to give my children the best life possible, and i am not ready to put my child in some stranger's hands for them to raise. so abortion may the only option for us IF i do get pregnant, which i will be careful of. i don't take painkillers or vitamins that may interfere with the patch. you FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS on the package. you don't have sex if something isn't going right! use common sense!

but do not talk to me if you are having the child because you think it will keep your boyfriend around or get him to marry you or because you think your husband will love you more. i would be so angry. dump the bastard and you also need a serious reality check. a child is not a toy you should use as a bargaining chip to get a wedding proposal or some extra income. in that case, i would rather you abort the child than to have the poor person shuffled from parent to parent.

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i am sorry, karyn, to hear your situation. i have friends who were also unwanted by one parent and who were results at the end of a series of abortions. i would not have the ability to know them as the wonderful, amazing people they are, and i praise their mothers for giving birth to them and raising them.

the ability to have abortions should be there in a safe and sanitary environment to be available to girls who experience terrible circumstances or when there is no other option. when i weigh the pros and cons of providing a legal form of abortion than the alternative, i must say that legal abortions do more good than bad. there are always going to be people who abuse the system, but it is helpful in general to society. we do not need an overpopulation problem beyond the one we already have. we do not need children born to inept parents or have them subject to foster homes.

jakinni has said much of what i want to say. i support life. i see the life of the mother being as important as the life of the child. and i would not try to pass judgements on someone for making the choice she does, because i am not in her situation, i am not the one in pain because of the decision to lose a potential child. i see the life of the child as important, and if he/she is ever born to be one of difficulty and perhaps great suffering, i would not impose that on any human being.

now questions, criticism, comments, debate, feel free to throw them my way.
but if you're going to call me a murderer or not going with what the bible says or try to appeal to my emotions as a heartless person or someone selfish and cruel, i'm not interested. give me facts and/or solid, logical arguments and i'll respond in turn.

[karyn531]

Great post there, Judes.
Good lord those pictures are graphic. Maybe add a warning, or post links to them instead of posting inline. At least for the people who are eating their lunch and not wanting bloody fetuses thrown in their face.I’m sorry. I have edited them. It was insensitive of me.
You are the person who posted these pictures in this forum, so it is up to you to take responsibility for them. If I posted lies, even if they were not my own, I would be responsible for retelling them.
I have no trouble taking responsibility but I don’t fully understand what this is trying to imply because from the beginning I had made it clear that I received those pictures as part of a wide circulation. Just take a look at these pictures. I received them just this morning. These pictures have been circulated through the Net and they are genuine
It was a mistake for me to declare them genuine without much thought at that time. But I just don’t know where it is that you think of me as irresponsible, kendo. I'm not part of the pro-life stance who circulated them in the attempt to force mothers to keep babies. It sounds as if you think I have something to do with it so I wanted to clarify this. No hard, feelings, okay?
We do not know if the fetus even had a heartbeat, let alone the ability to feel pain.
That's rubbish. I'm sorry, but According to Discovery Channel, fetus does feel pain. Yes, organs don't form until a little later into the pregnancy, but to assume that they don't have a heartbeat, or can't feel pain isn’t right.
Day 40 - Brain waves can now be detected and recorded. The embryo is now able to feel physical pain. Just look at this webpage which is part of the Discovery Channel Online. Some time back they had a documentary going on about fetuses. http://www.inourmidst.com/fetal_development.htm

the "perfectly formed hands" statement is a lie - nerve and muscle growth does not reach completion at such an early point in developement. Even months after birth, children do not have full control of their fine-motor movements.
This isn't true either. It has also been scientifically proven that a fetus’ hands fully form around 5 to 6 months. That’s why there were able to suck their thumb in their mother’s womb. This is also from Discovery Channel. That is, to me, a source reliable enough. Hilarious - they offend me, I point out how they're wrong, they get pissed because they can't make a defense, and then settle on saying I'm offensive. *rolls eyes*. If people even approached a debate with a little skeptism, the world would have a lot fewer idiots.
Because I still have respect for you, kendo, I’m going to ignore this insult so obviously thrown at me.
Rather than give them any thought, you'd rather focus on forcing mothers to bring more children into these conditions?
When did I ever wanted to force mothers? At the beginning of my defence I had already said otherwise. In the end, it all boils down to the mother's decision.
How many governments in the world do you think could give a real chance to all of the unwanted children forcibly born into their boundaries? Not all could, but it doesn’t mean all couldn’t. I know a lot of kids out there suffer but they have the right to choose whether they want to live or not. If mothers want to abort there’s nothing anyone could do about it. It’s just that I don’t encourage abortion because regardless of the situation abortion is the murder of an innocent life.
I am more anti-propoganda than anything.
If you would insist on “both sides of the argument”, kendo, people are going to get confused on “which side you are on”. Like how I did.
Did you know that before abortion was legalized, even American women did the same thing? They visited back-alley surgeons who used cruel implements such as smouldering coat hangers to destroy the fetus. This not only created a great risk to the mother's life, but often left them sterile. Now, if abortion were banned, just like before legalization, women would seek it out - that won't changeBut instead of giving them a safe alternative that is eugenically sound, you want to force them to this barbaric alternative.
Please. I have never said that abortion should be banned.
Oh, and for your information, I believe in a woman's right to choice - whether or not to keep a pregnancy is completely up to the mother and father. I'm not going to force a woman to abort, or tell her that she is wrong if she choses not to. I'm against other people forcing their opinion on others or misleading them ~ for both sides of this argument.
I believe in a woman’s right to choose too.
In the end, it all boils down to the mother's decision.
I don’t “force women to abort” and neither do I “tell her it’s wrong if she chooses not to” because I don’t have the right to do such a thing no matter whether I think it is right or not. I admit that I don’t, but I know where to draw the line.

And thanks to Yi Ming dear for telling me about the Discovery Channel.

[akane_chou]

i'm a christian but i cant say i'm devout and my religion doesnt really play a part in this. i am on the side of making abortion available. i feel that we as humans, should have choices instead of just abiding by the "rules" of society.

to me, if i got pregnant, if it was an accident because i was careless in having sex, then it is my problem and i cant get away with it. since it is partially my fault, i would keep the baby although if i get pregnant now, my parents would
throw me out [so they say] and i would be expelled from school.
[dismiss the fact i'm 96, please]. but regardless of what my parents said, i'm convinced they wouldnt throw me out and help me raise the child, that is, if i choose to have the child.

if i got raped, my parent would leave the decision up to me and i would probably give it up for adoption then continue my studies. but if i chose to abort, i know i wouldnt be able to live with the guilt. it's a life, no matter how small, no matter how undeveloped it is, it is still a life form.

my views are mixed. it is a free world and we should be able to make choices no matter what. but for me, i will try to keep the feotus alive. this is my choice.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
as for karyn mummy, she's strong. really.

[KendoTiger]

Karyn, I do not think any less of you for anything you say - and I have no reason to hold a grudge as of yet. I only want to keep this debate forum as clear and reliable.

That's rubbish. I'm sorry, but According to Discovery Channel, fetus does feel pain. Yes, organs don't form until a little later into the pregnancy, but to assume that they don't have a heartbeat, or can't feel pain isn’t right.

Please post the following information: when the heart starts (generically) to start beating, when organs form, and when fetuses can feel pain. Then compair it to the approximate age of the fetus shown in the picture. To assume that it does have a heart beat, or can feel pain, isn't right. Which is why I keep saying, "whether the fetus was alive or dead when the mutilation occured is unable to be proven".


http://www.inourmidst.com/fetal_development.htm

I am sorry, could you please list the page showing the link from the discovery channel? .com sites are ususually unreliable for scientific information, and I especially wish to avoid a ministery-based site which backs a pro-life stance. If you could please list a more unbiased site, I would be happy to review your point.


It has also been scientifically proven that a fetus’ hands fully form around 5 to 6 months. That’s why there were able to suck their thumb in their mother’s womb.

Yes, towards later developmental stages, the fetus is capable of this; yet it is unlikely that the picture shown is of a fetus at this stage. Please keep in mind that unless I say otherwise, all of my comments are refering to the fetus in the specific picture mentioned - I am not making blanket statements.

I was not insulting you - I'm responding to Sagara's comment. I also believe skeptisism of what people tell you should always be present - otherwise you end up following someone blindly. And to be ferverous to the point of blind devotion, in my opinion, is complete idiocy.

-Sorry, gtg, I'll finish this post asap-

[Sugar&Spice]

These are things that we cannot help. But what gose on as far as a womans body, and whether she wants to keep, or kill her baby. Is something that can be helped. The baby's life is in the mothers hands.

[judes]

alright everyone. inform yourselves here:
Discovery Channel should be a fairly reliable source, no?

regarding abortion: http://health.discovery.com/encyclopedias/illnesses.html?article=1959

"Abortions are legal in the United States during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. After that, the legality of abortion is regulated by each state."

i'm assuming that the abortions we're talking about here are the legal abortions before the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. i doubt that the body developments in those pictures are of the first 12 weeks where the abortion is legal. kendo has stated before he doesn't support late-term abortions, so if we're going to argue about those pictures, then argue accordingly. yes, the abortions in those pictures do happen and the fetus may look that way, but i think we should all question the validity of the sources like kendo has a right to point out. these pictures could be doctored from stillborn births that are well in the advanced stages. i think it is completely valid to judge for yourself the accuracy and the idea being presented in the pictures.

i know that one of the tricky points in this argument is the advancement of medical technological in the united states as opposed to some less developed countries. which is why i am saying that better equipment, trained staff should be available to those women who wish to abort so that illegal abortions of well advanced pregnancies do not happen.

fetal development:
http://americanbaby.com/ab/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/ab/story/data/9177.xml&catref=AB77 (this site is linked directly from DC, so i would assume it is another legitimate source)

"After 8 weeks as an embryo, the baby now is called a "fetus."
so only after 2 months is the embryo actually called a fetus.

"By the end of the second month, the fetus looks more like a person than like a tadpole, is about 1 inch long and still weighs less than 1 ounce."
Sugar, this is where your statement about two weeks can be misleading. it takes eight weeks before the embryo starts developing into the fetus and then looks more like a person.

fetal development: http://health.discovery.com/centers/pregnancy/americanbaby/senses.html

"Just before the eighth week of gestation, an embryo develops its first sensitivity to touch."
Both kendo and Sugar are a little incorrect in what they're saying. Only when the embryo reaches two months of development does the embryo begin to feel "pain" and yes kendo is right in that it may only be sensitivity at this point, because it still has not been proven that the brain development at this point is a complex neural network that can process the signals that the formed spine may or may not be sending out. Therefore we can assume that before that point in development, the embryo does not feel pain. Right at 12 weeks of pregnancy, the cheek, genitals, palms, and soles of the feet are sensitive. So no, Sugar, you cannot say that the fetus will feel its legs being pulled off at this point.

"By 32 weeks, nearly every part of the body is sensitive to heat, cold, pressure, and pain." BUT we also have to talk about other sources, such as this article also posted on Discovery, which says:

"The neural circuitry needed to process pain is complete, if not mature, by 26 weeks' gestation, he said. "From about 26 weeks you can talk about there being a complete system in terms of biology, a link from the skin to the spinal cord to the brain, and we know that set-up is reasonably functional," Derbyshire explained."

so you can see that before 12 weeks, the brain and the spine may be formed but not developed. therefore the fetus cannot really process pain.

"But to properly experience pain, the mind must also be developed, something which cannot happen until after birth. The mind permits the subjectivity of pain, said the U.K. expert, who has previously served as an unpaid consultant to Planned Parenthood of Virginia and Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin, as well as the U.K.-based Pro-Choice Forum." (http://health.discovery.com/news/healthscout/article.html?article=532137&category=20&year=2006)

This doctor argues that the fetus may not be able to experience pain at all because of once again, the neural networks. This refers to the US legislation that pregnant women must be informed by the doctor that the fetus may feel pain if an abortion occured around the 20th week.

just some info that people may be interested in after reading this thread.

[KendoTiger]

Thanks for the clarification Judes.

*goes to read links*

[Sugar&Spice]

First of all I want to say that this has been a good debate. But I also want to point out that I did not say that only after 2 months can the baby feel pain. Also illegal abortions do happen after 12 weeks, and yes even in legal medical facilities.

I wrote more, of a reply. But they said it was too long. There I was clarifying what I said earlier. I also would like to reply to KendoTiger when he said he knew more about it then me. Well I have already studied genetics and biology. So what you are doing, I have already done. Lets get that clear.

But let me say thank to everyone who gave me a good debate. And for future refrences, KendoTiger keep race out of a debate, unless it is about race.

I think everyone did a good job defending their views. I love to debate, it may sound at times that I'm rather mean. But thats my game face, I'm really a nice person.:D

[KendoTiger]

Where do I mention race?

Currently, besides pursuing three degrees, I am working at a Government Genetics Lab on some things I can't really mention - in which I run my own experiments and might be getting an assistant sometime soon. I also might be transferring to NIH if I can sweet talk either an old classmate or my tutor into letting me present a few papers there.

I'm actually really happy you have background knowledge - from some of the things you said, I was assuming *wrongly so* that you were not in college yet. I would like to say I'm sorry. Where do you work right now?



And yes, I am only 19 1/2. The Profile isn't a lie.

[judes]

medical abortions are also legal after twelve weeks under specific circumstances. we're not debating that. illegal abortions happen everywhere up to nine months. i'm just stating that under the legal restrictions, there is no reason why people should not have abortions if they so choose. and i only assumed that you talked about embryos and fetuses feeling pain because you talk about "feeling their legs pulled off" and about the existence of nerves that are created after two weeks as possibilities of embryos or growing up into fetuses as feeling pain. if that's not what you meant, then fine.

there shouldn't have been any personal attacks at all in this thread.
and in a debate there shouldn't be an appeal to "feelings" or calling people "murderers" or "heartless". as long as it doesn't happen again, then everyone has a right to their own opinion.

yes sugar, you have experience in bio and genetics classes. heck, i have experience in bio and genetics classes, but there is still much for me to learn. unless you or kendo or me specializes in fetus development or embryology (masters/phd or equivalent), then we all have things to learn from each other. so there shouldn't have been an attack regarding age or personal knowledge.

if any of us can back it up with articles, primary sources, journals, then i would be unable to refute whatever points someone has to make. but unless some evidence is presented, then we're all running into walls headfirst here.

so...let's move on. any other thoughts or ideas or presentations, bring them here.

[Sugar&Spice]

Where do I mention race?
Current I would like to say I'm sorry. Where do you work right now?

And yes, I am only 19 1/2. The Profile isn't a lie.


Where do I work now?! Well not in a govrnment lab, in case your wondering.:D

Your a smarty pants, I think we might get along. Correct me if I'm wrong.:D

[KendoTiger]

*out proving the "model minority myth"* rofl.

Sure :). If I remember, I first met Judes over an argument o_o" hmm...

[xanimeotakux]

i'm a strong atheist. i think women should only have one chance for abortion. they made a mistake, they should have the right for a 2nd chance, am i not right? we should all be able to have a 2nd chance, learn our mistakes.