Should English (subject, not language) be compulsory in Yr 11 and 12 (Form 6)?

[ssejy_kun]

Hey everyone out there! I want some good discussion on this topic, because i really want to know how everyone feels about this. I don't know about you guys there on the other side of the world, but here in Australia, English (the subject) is compulsory up until, and including, year 12 (Year 13 in NZ).
I believe that up until year 10, English being mandatory is perfectly fine and the things we learn can definitely help us to get a job, into Uni, etc. But, what i hate is the fact that they make English compulsory in Year 11 and 12, and they force you to include the units into your total unit count. I'm going into year 12 next term, and i'll be doing 15 units in total, including 2 units for English. But it absolutely riles me up that i have to include these 2 units with the rest of my subjects.
The main reason i really don't like English being compulsory is that i totally suck at it, and it is really going to bring my UAI down. :rasp: Right now, out of 180 people in my year, my rank in English is 152. Yeah... i know, i kinda suck... But, like, there are some people in my year who don't do any Math subjects or any Science (biology, physics, chemistry) subjects at all, but they are all doing fine in School because they're all good at English! What about the people who are really good at mathematical subjects, but just can't grasp what the hell anaylysis and deconstruction of Shakespeare is all about?
I don't mean to boast, but for year 12 i will be doing all the sciences (bio, phys, chem), and Extension 2 (4 Unit) Maths, and i am pretty good at all these subjects. I know that i'd get a fairly good UAI if i only needed to include the marks for these subjects, but becuase i have to include English, which i am currently doing very miserably at, my UAI is going to come tumbling down, and it might even destroy any chances i have at getting into the Uni course i've been looking forward to for years (Medicine).
What i'm trying to say is that it is really unfair to force people to do something that they aren't good at, when others get let off because things like Maths and Sciences aren't compulsory at all. Here i am suffering becuase of one lousy subject, while my friends are all cruising along saying that it's a piece of cake, when it really isn't.
And also, i mean, what do we really need English for past year 10? By then, we’ve already learnt how to everything that we will need to write good essays and thesis’, etc. What more do we need to know?!?!? Why do we need to study journeys, Shakespeare, the wild, and everything else that they stuff into our faces. What use will knowing how somebody has undergone an inner transformation be when i get out of school, get myself a job, and get (or at least try to) get into Uni? I already know how to speak in public without sounding like a bogan, and i know what not to say when doing an interview. And unfortunately, knowing how to analyse William Wordsworths poems are hardly going to enlighten me, or get me a better job, or help me in any way unless i become an English teacher, which will NEVER happen. Watching paint dry is far more interesting than listening to my current English teacher ramble on about who knows what.
:happy: Sorry for all this melancholy ranting, but i just needed to get that all off my chest. *sigh* So, how do all you people feel about this? Do you think English should be compulsory, and why? Or maybe you hate English just as much as me. Well, have your say, have a rant, defend your beliefs, whatever. Just let me know how you all feel.
cya! :wave:

[princessKitty]

And unfortunately, knowing how to analyse William Wordsworths poems are hardly going to enlighten me, or get me a better job

I agree. But what is the point of learning about algebra or trigonometry or fractions or simultaneous equations? Why did I have to learn about the Periodic table and the three different kind of stones and the science equation of photosynthesis? Learning these did not help me get a job either and as far as I am aware, I will not be using these in the future.

English is spoken world wide and it is used and seen as the primary language. So in my opinion, english as a subect is extremely important to study whether you are good at it or not. We may not enjoy studying shakespeare or we may know how to write essays but when it comes down to the qualification itself, prospective employers or individuals who needs to know what your qualification are, can look at you CV/Application form and go 'hey, this girl or guy has an english as a qualification.'

The working industry looks for people who can speak, write, read and listen in english and the only way how they would know if you can sufficiently, is by looking to see if you have that English qualification. Of course, no-one is going to say "I want to employ someone who studied shakespeare, oh let's see if they got that english qualification". No, when they look to see if the person has an english qualification, they want to know whether you studied hard using your english skills (reading, writing, speaking and listening) and then look at the grade/level you got. This is how the system works at the moment and if you want a job or go to uni, I would advise you to work your socks off for that qualification. (In a nice way :wink2:)

[orangeman]

I don't like English, but I need at least 3 years, or 4 recommended for colleges. I agree it is not the best or fun subject, but it's good for the future. The world revolves around English mainly now. Learning English is not harmful, but beneficial. My school needs also at least 2 yrs. of foreign language, which I think is bullshit. I probably won't use another language except speaking. And that 2 yrs takes up class periods, which I cuold take something I enjoy or can be interested to learn about. So try taking two subjects you don't like.

Science, math, history, english, etc. are all general education. You can't drop english and expect to do well in other subjects, if your teaching is mainly based on english. you need to understand what the other subjects are teaching, so the only way is to study english along. Reading is the factor here, and english classes I have revolve around reading. :dry:

Just think that you have the opportunity to learn english well, while people around the world might have to pay for lessons, or get a chance to learn. (If you're in a public school.)

[ssejy_kun]

PrincessKitty: I can see where you're coming from, and yes, i do agree with you with the fact that i will probably never use all the math and science that i have learned, once i get out of Uni. But what i'm trying to say, or at least i think i am, is that, while getting an english qualification and putting it into your CV is all fine and dandy and will most probably help you get a job, i think that the subject would be so much more useful, helpful and practical if they actually taught us ENGLISH, and not some airy-fairy techniques on analysing poems and deconstructing films and whatnot. What they could do is actually help us with grammar and speaking skills, and things that can i can pysically apply to everyday life. I mean, i've learnt better grammar and sentence structure from my German teacher than from any English teacher i've ever had.

No, when they look to see if the person has an english qualification, they want to know whether you studied hard using your english skills (reading, writing, speaking and listening) and then look at the grade/level you got.

So, are you saying that if i tried my best in English, but i just can't understand the stuff they are teaching me, then i'll get a bad grade, and this in turn will affect the job i get? Even if i can speak English fine, have a perfect interview, and maybe not talk as well as the Queen, but talk well enough - then because i don't do well in English, then that's going to help determine if i get chosen for a job or not? Even if i tried the very best i can. I thought being considered for a normal job was all about personal confidence/competence, the ability to take criticism, being open to learning/new ideas, having a good work ethic, etc. Not about whether you came in the top 10 percent in the state for English, unless the job is specialised for a certain course, or something. If i can speak English just as well as any other person, but i can't perform as well every other person in the subject, then i am deemed not as competent as everyone else? Sorry if i seem like i'm ripping you ^^', but i just need someone to complain to. yeah, i'm a perpetual whiner. :whistle:

Orangeman: Hey, your'e 14, right? So would you be around Year 9-ish? I'm not saying your'e too young to understand. Believe me, you are anything BUT too young. :D I believe everyone should have an opinion, especially all those youngins out there. And i've read alot of your posts, and you are so much more mature than alot of 14 year olds i know. But i just need to say that senior school is SO VERY different from junior school. Yes, i definitely believe that English up to Year 10 is very important and very useful, but after that point you've basically learnt all the english skills that you will ever need to get around in life, and i doubt that learning two more years of English is going to make me any smarter or more polite or more knowledgeable than i already am.
The things in English that i learnt in junior school were all basic things that were necessary for me to learn, in order for me to develop into a more sophisticated/educated human being. But the things we are currently learning in Yr 11/12 English are concepts that i just can't relate to life outside of school. Learning topics like change, inner journeys, 'nature and man', powerplay, etc., i just don't see how these concepts are going to benefit me, once i leave School and uni.
Also, if you were born in an English-speaking country, then it is very unlikely that you will need English (subject) in order to understand History, Geography, Science or Maths. These subjects have there own 'vocabulary' which you will learn as you go along. The english-use in these subjects is very basic, and you only need to learn the right terms and how to use/understand these terms. For example, if a math question asked you "Draw the graph y=1/x". I'm sure that you understand that you have to draw something to complete the question, but in order to get full marks (or any marks), then you would have to understand the 'lingo'. i.e, what actually is y=1/x?
So, having basic grasp of English is sufficient enough to understand any subject, but the subject, English, actually has no real connection or benefit to any other subject.

Ack! I'm veering from the topic. Well, now that i think about it, English being compulsory isn't too bad. But, i guess, it's what they teach in it (or don't teach) that really brings its usefullness and practicality down. If they taught something different, something more physical, the English would be a real help. Goddamnit! Can't they teach me how to speak in public without my face turning into a bright red strawberry, or how to talk to strangers without mumbling and looking at my feet, or even giving us a motivational boost. Why can't they teach me something i can use?!?!?

[princessKitty]

ssejy_kun: Hey, it's all fine, and you don't sound like you are ripping me. :wink2: It's all about opinions right? And I can see that it seems to me english is not your preferred subject and you are forced to study it and you just need to let it out right? It's all cool. :happy:

i think that the subject would be so much more useful, helpful and practical if they actually taught us ENGLISH, and not some airy-fairy techniques on analysing poems and deconstructing films and whatnot.

You know I agree with you, I have grammatical problems reason being is it all comes down to what I was taught at school, all about poems and shakespeare and what have you. I wish sometimes they were thorough with their teaching and persistent with certain simple units like long spelling or grammatical vocablularly. But education these days ain't all about that and the sad thing is, we can't do anything about it. As students, we have to abide my the examining board's specification and requirements of what we are to study English as a subject.

About the job, yes, it's all about confidence and selling yourself through the interview. But when I said having an english qualificaton is necessary, I was thinking about some job specification where they require candidates to have English as a qualification. Some may not ask for it but some may. So all I am saying is, English is an advantage.

If i can speak English just as well as any other person, but i can't perform as well every other person in the subject, then i am deemed not as competent as everyone else?

Ask the working and the employment industry, I would come with you and ask that question. Interesting to see what answer we get. :rolleyes:

[orangeman]

Hey, your'e 14, right? So would you be around Year 9-ish? I'm not saying your'e too young to understand. Believe me, you are anything BUT too young. I believe everyone should have an opinion, especially all those youngins out there. And i've read alot of your posts, and you are so much more mature than alot of 14 year olds i know. But i just need to say that senior school is SO VERY different from junior school. Yes, i definitely believe that English up to Year 10 is very important and very useful, but after that point you've basically learnt all the english skills that you will ever need to get around in life, and i doubt that learning two more years of English is going to make me any smarter or more polite or more knowledgeable than i already am.
The things in English that i learnt in junior school were all basic things that were necessary for me to learn, in order for me to develop into a more sophisticated/educated human being. But the things we are currently learning in Yr 11/12 English are concepts that i just can't relate to life outside of school. Learning topics like change, inner journeys, 'nature and man', powerplay, etc., i just don't see how these concepts are going to benefit me, once i leave School and uni.
Also, if you were born in an English-speaking country, then it is very unlikely that you will need English (subject) in order to understand History, Geography, Science or Maths. These subjects have there own 'vocabulary' which you will learn as you go along. The english-use in these subjects is very basic, and you only need to learn the right terms and how to use/understand these terms. For example, if a math question asked you "Draw the graph y=1/x". I'm sure that you understand that you have to draw something to complete the question, but in order to get full marks (or any marks), then you would have to understand the 'lingo'. i.e, what actually is y=1/x?
So, having basic grasp of English is sufficient enough to understand any subject, but the subject, English, actually has no real connection or benefit to any other subject.


I'm actually a sophomore, which is a year younger than the avg. class age. Schools focuses on English because even if you're born into English-speaking countries, it doesn't automatically make you great at English. I was born in China, but my english in general is better than the average American. Not verbally though.

English class teaches you to comprehend problems in science, math, history. General english is good enough, but as you take more complex courses, you'll won't undersand what is being taught. English grammar skills are basically the same, but as you advance through school, you learn to better intepret that physics theory, the teachings of Confucious, or the word problem you weren't able to solve in math. All these need good writing skills too, which is taught in English class.

I always thought the same thing as you: "English is useless". But as I take the courses, all we did is read books and write. It seems boring, but a person well taught in English sure does write more interesting articles/stories/etc. You tend to develop "higher-level thinking", but that's based on what my freshmen teacher said.

3 years of English in high school is good enough. You learn a lot in the 11th grade English class.

[beyOnd aLL reasOn]

By year 11 and 12, it's true that you probably won't be learning anything about English that's "earth shattering" that you haven't known before. Most people can probably write and understand essays etc. So I guess if you have no interest at all in English, it's pretty useless.

But from my point of view, after year 9 (at least at my school), stop learning grammar and begin to learn about literature. "Oh yeah blah blah, literature books blah blah." But literature exists for a reason, and I find that interpreting the meaning in those books and the messages the authors are trying to convey is fairly interesting. Maturity will always add to the amount of knowledge and enrichment that can be taken from a course.
Sometimes the things in literature seem like they don't relate to life...but they do eventually.
But I guess, to each their own.

I don't know how it works in Australia, but usually, if you're exceptionally good in one area of academics, the school won't care. But good luck.

[c377om377o]

In Canada, we have to take English up to grade 12, but by grade 12, there is a college english (which is easier) and university english, so you can choose. But if you're wanting to go into uni, you have to take the uni English, no choice, which is the one thing i don't like, because not everyone is going to become a writer!

In my opinion, I think there should be further division of uni English into one for English majors, and one for non-English majors, like us Science ppl, who only need to know how to write research papers.

However, no matter what, you can't avoid english, it will catch up to you sometime later in your life, because like princesskitty mentioned earlier, we need to be able to express ourselves in writing for all kinds of jobs.
For me in particular, to get into med school, you need to write an essay so...

Anyways, i don't think grade 11 or 12 english should be removed completely, i think it just needs to be adjusted to fit the needs of different students.

[crazygiggles13]

im from australia too :D haha..but perth..so the other side of the country.
an english subject is still compulsory til you finish high school, but you can chose from either english as a second language, english literature (shakespeare and all that) or normal english. i quite like the english course that they have cuz or english class is actually quite fun! i sound quite like a nerd right now, but trust me..im not one of those really smart people who do really well in allmy subjects..but i do ok.. so anyways...our course is based on print, non print and comprehension. print is like novels, short stories, dramas and expository texts; non print is movies and documentaries and comprehension is like any text that you havent read andyou have to write an essay (or two) right there in your test/exam.
i like our course as i can relate it to our world and i find it quite interesting. we get marked on orals and essays and stuff like that, but people get into it. like for an oral someone talked about crocroaches (persuasive speeches) and for another oral our group we dressed up and put mud masks on our faces and everything! :D haha..i go to a girls school if that explains anything teehee...
anyways..as for being compulsory, i dont actually mind. in the WA system, we just have to pass english and we get an english accomplimency certificate thing. but you dont have to count it in your UAI. you have to have at least one list one( humanities, english included if youre really good), and one list two (maths/science) and so i quite like our system :D
i think its good that you have to do english and pass it to graduate. (especially in an english speaking country). in some other countries, you must take your native language PLUS english.

[ssejy_kun]

Crazygiggles: Are you serious?! You don't have to include English in you UAI?!?! But that's... so... ARGHHH!!! *rips hair out* Maybe i should come and live in perth for year 12. :shifty: And your school sounds fun, though a little wierd...

Actually, i like the sound of dividing English into different 'areas'. Like, some mathematically inclined individuals can take the 'easier' english course which won't count as much, while others can take the 'harder' one. That would be so much better than the current system we have right now., where it's like "OK, we are forcing you to do and include 2 units of English, and if you fail then it's all your fault and it's going to show up in your report, UAI, etc, and TOO BAD!"

And i guess, that senior English does kind of open up your eyes to a bigger picture of... everything, really. Ack! I'm starting to regret i even began this thread. Stupid shoulder angel:rasp:

And Orangeman. Hey, sorry about assuming that you were in Junior school still... But, your age is kinda misleading ^^'. And, when i asked my dad what a sophomore was, and he explained it to me, i was like, WOW! Holy 'faecal matter'! How can anyone be that smart?!?! Wouldn't your brain kind of explode or something? haha, just kidding. ^^

[countess]

i'm aussie too and i will be doing the HSC English exams in 20 days!! ok i shouldnt be here, but talking about nerding it out is close enough. I go to an all girls highschool in sydney and approx 70/164 people in my grade chose 4U english compared to 63/164 chosing 4U maths. Apparently girls are meant to be better at english. i do 4U maths and 3U english.

Personally, i find the senior english course very very interesting, there are many important life skills that are taught, such as communicating effectively and being able to observe our society from multiple veiwpoints. remember, there is never ONE truth or story.

The essential skills we learn like how to construct a decent essay, give an oral presentation and write creatively- they're all skills that are required in most university courses. Even in science and maths courses you'll be required to write essays- and what about the PhD- that is a whole BOOK!

So yeh, there is my argument- Go English! ( i somehow know i'll regret this after i flunk my HSC English exams or something)

[tomato_0]

ssejy_kun in adelaide you don't need to do english in year 12 - we're the only state (south) that doesnt need english for uni.

but then again, since i wanna go interstate, i need english. it's not that bad really, but i thought for the TER (your UAI), they only include your best 5 subjects? do you go to a catholic school? here in adelaide, i go to a catholic school, and i have to do an EXTRA unit of RELIGION for stage two JUST coz i go to a catholic school! WHAT A WASTE OF TIME!

anyway, learning english isnt that bad. i find it quite interesting! i dont do too well in it though (only on like a 16 - 17) but if you have a sound understanding of english, it'll help yu with all the work in sciences in maths, coz now you have to write and explain more in the maths and sciences fields.

[Pugwash]

Absolutely!

I think English is by far one of the most important subjects to take into consideration while studying. You should be able to convey your ideas in a very clear and coherent manner. To be honest, the English subject didn't change at all in high school - it was the same in grade 9, 10, 11 and 12. Does that really mean I learnt nothing past grade 9? No, I learned a lot. You just get gradually better at expressing your ideas in various forms after you've written dozens of papers. What good are ideas if you can't express them, right? :wink2:

[KendoTiger]

A few weeks ago, I helped my friend edit her sister's paper (sister is a freshman in college). After having to rewrite the entire paper, I came to the solid conclusion that high schoolers need as much english (subject) as possible. Although there are those students who dont, the vast majority do. So let's keep english around :)

[rachipoo]

yeh... ive just finished my hsc so now im waiting for my d-day in a week...
i hated english so much..coz it was my third languages and my worst and when we had to migrate to aus i nearly died..anyways i think it should be compulsory to be included into our uai coz its the language we speak and it teaches a lot bout language itself in terms of what ppl r trying to communicate like in terms of what they are trying to say and not saying.........
its a very important subject and maybe ur like me ur a maths person and ur very inside the box and u cant think freely beyond ur environment.

[shadow_whiteknight]

Uh... My school has kind of relation with Aussie's college. I'm not in the senior high school yet but my cousin. She said that she hate it too but it's very important. Especially for your communication skill.

And may I ask something for those who're taking HSC?
My school said that in Aussie, some schools also have subject of bahasa Indonesia? Is it right? I just can't believe it

[simple_girl]

Uh... My school has kind of relation with Aussie's college. I'm not in the senior high school yet but my cousin. She said that she hate it too but it's very important. Especially for your communication skill.
And may I ask something for those who're taking HSC?
My school said that in Aussie, some schools also have subject of bahasa Indonesia? Is it right? I just can't believe it

Technically, yes. Virtually any language e.g. chinese (mandarin), malay, maltese, portugese, polish, persian. In Year 11 and 12 only. You can learn it either learn via correspondence or at classes held (not at your school).

[Jay is coolest]

yeah, u can learn other languages in high school depending on your school. the school i went to offered French and Japanese as second language. One old school of mine also offered German. All the high schools I know of offers second languages from yr 8. If you don't start during yr8 it can be quite tough to learn the language. I started my japanese in yr8 and sat for the uni exam with it as well.

I heard of some schools offering Chinese and Indonesian but this is quite rare around my state. I think these applied more for overseas student type schools.

[HarmonyCloud]

I think that English should be compulsory as a subject because today Colleges complain that their students are coming into schools and are unable to write cohesive well thought-out essays. Thats why they added the essay section to the SATs.
My high school also offered a second language which you have to take for two years, with your choice of Spanish, French, and Mandarin. I mean, in other countries you have to learn a second language and the same kinda goes here. You have to at least study a second language. I think though it is important that we have a class for English because the class isn't meant to teach you English like..."this is an adverb", I find that English classes today are more focused on teaching students how to write essays, and also to teach new vocabulary because English has...a lot of words...I think the most in any language because we have a lot of ways to express the same thing. So I think thats why we need English class.

[shadow_whiteknight]

Thx simple_girl and Jay_is_coolest, in my school we have to learn chinese since year7, Japanese is one of the activity you can choose besides computer, photography, manga, sports, painting, drama, etc
I think I'm already out of topic

[Destiny]

For me in malaysia, form 6(18yrs old) is actually not compulsory, we can choose to go form 6 or straight to college. But all the way to form 6 is compulsory. When go to college or universiti, its depending on your grades. Im not really sure, but i asked my mum, which is a teacher..

On my opinion, i think english should be compulsory as its very important
nowadays..

I learnt that some schools other than malaysia get to learn other languages like japanese, spanish or so on. To bad government schools in malaysia dont have. Its just like english and malay is compulsory, chinese and tamil is not compulsory.. dont have like spanish and stuff. I wana learn japanese :(

[chineseguyjl]

In America, english is mandatory until freshman year of college, just like it shuold be. Is it just me or is America getting dumber. English throughout high school is good because it helps kids learn it. I think we need more personally. College general education is fine too because its just basic knowledge so students are well rounded.

[watiwat]

I'm from Australia too, Sydney, in fact.

I hate that English is compulsory. I just don't believe that we are in need of the skills we are taught. When the markers look at the essays we do, they're looking for a specific thing. If you think a different way, you could get marked down heavily, because it's not the "right" way.

Can anyone give a reason why EVERYONE needs to learn how to analyse a text for its themes given its context? I certainly can't. Sure, structuring essays is a good skill to have, but it's the content that I don't agree with. Most of my friends, despite being in an academically selective school, have had their knowledge of spelling deteriorate over the duration of high school. Simply because during primary, we were drilled in spelling every week, so we didn't have that constant revision to refresh our minds.

Also, thanks to yr12 english, I never want to hear the word "journey" ever again.

PS. General Maths should be compulsory. It's far more useful than Standard English.

[rachipoo]

hey watiwat..ur so right bout it..i just finished my HSC and i cant even stand the word "journey" or any of the text we've done

But its still very important...i go to a high school which is consider the worst school in our region and ppl at my school have really bad english...in terms of their lack of vocab and their use of language...so it is important

[watiwat]

rachipoo, you make point that english helps those that aren't good at it..

but does HSC english really teach vocan and use of language? i don't believe so. the only reason i haven't failed english badly is because i go to a selective school, where it's necessary to uphold a certain level of literacy.

I wouldn't mind a once a week lesson on vocab and grammar, just as a refresher.. I think that'd be more helpful that 4 hours of mindless drivel a week.

[cinsin]

I wouldn't mind a once a week lesson on vocab and grammar, just as a refresher.. I think that'd be more helpful that 4 hours of mindless drivel a week.

I'm not sure about Sydney but at my school (in Melbourne) in year 11&12 you get to choose which English you wish to do ie. English, literature or English language.

I chose the latter and I learned grammar and sentence structures and we analysed how language is used in speech and in advertising.

I personally thought it was a much better subject compared to the normal standard English subject where you're constantly writing essays and analysing books ><

[WalshyNosCar]

i dont really like english, in fact its my least favourite subject but you need it later on when you work for stuff like writing up reports and whatnot.

[black shinigami]

Even though Australia is a Multicultural country, I think that English should be mandatory in year 11 and 12 because Australia after all is an English speaking country and seriously, you'd be amazed how many people still don't know how to write an essay when they graduate from high school.

I think especially for international students too, English should be mandatory(but alot of local students actually have really bad grammatical skills and such too) since for me it is really annoying that my Uni course made Academic Literacy a mandatory subject to take because so many people don't know how to write essays (even though we were taught how to write them for the past 6 years of our schooling life). So yea, I think that English is quite important in Australia since most people now decide to attend university and most courses require essay writing of some sort.

[judes]

English is mandatory in Alberta (Canada) throughout high school, and I think it's very important. English is the only subject that you will be guaranteed use in your university and future careers. You will need to write reports and know how to communicate with your professors and peers when you are in university and when you are working. Although to critically analyze texts may not be essential to your life, it's an important skill to learn because you have the ability to look at a text and consider where this person is coming from and whether what they are saying is worth acknowledging and remembering.

I simply cannot believe there are people who think that English is not necessary in your every day life. I understand if you are in a country that communicates in another language, but if you are in an English speaking country, it's unbelievable.

[lil~jo]

hahahaha a correction is to be made.

In NZ, english is only compulsory to yr 12, like you in Australia.

I believe it should be.

Nowadays, in our modern society due to all the short forms we use in msn, text messaging and emails, our level of english has dropped severely.

Lack of reading proper books and newspapers has also lead to a decrease in our literacy levels, and even universities are now complaining about all the gramatical errors in essays marked.

Seeing as less effort is being put into learning English, I find it essential to keep this subject compulsory so as to retain a certain level of English, prior to entering a university.

[zashuna]

I know people haven't posted here for a while, but... Basically, I don't think English should be compulsory up to grades 11 and 12, which it is at my school and many other schools in American. Honestly, English class is the biggest waste of my time. It's not even English class anymore. It’s pretty much literature class, where we read books and then talk or write or take tests on them. It’s really a completely pointless class and I honestly have not learned anything for a quite a while in English, besides some useless English terms. The class is complete BS. All the students, even those in AP, BS answers and analyses. Here is how it would go: “Miss (some woman’s name) wears a green hat. And the green color symbolizes envy and jealousy, revealing some aspects of her character. Yet, green is also the symbol of nature, and this goes along very well with the overall Romantic style of this novel. It shows that she is a person of nature. Furthermore, the fact that she wears it on her head signifies her mental state and how jealousy is the only thing in her mind.”

The teachers absolutely love this type of weak logic and nonsense reasoning. Honestly, here is one of the most ridiculous quotes I’ve heard in English class: “Alec is usually associated with the color red. Red has the longest wavelength, and this foreshadows the fact that he is going to be around for a while.”

There are many people whom I know that have a terrible command of grammar, vocabulary, and are pretty bad writers (I’m not saying that I’m very good at those myself). Sadly, none of that is taught in English class anymore. English class, at least where I live, should instead focus more on those topics. It’s dry and boring, but it’s important, and certainly much important than the literary analysis BS that is currently taught.

In any case, even if English focuses heavily on grammar, it still shouldn’t be mandatory at the 11 and 12 grades. By then, you would have already gotten a strong enough command of the English language for practical purposes. Sure, people should be a good writer. But, is it really necessary for someone who plans on going to computer graphics or science to take English? In science, you’ll need to write scientific papers, but you don’t need to be a very good writer; you only need to be clear. (And if you really plan on going into a science, professors will teach you how to write scientific papers anyways.) You sure as hell don’t need to know terms like prozeugma, alliteration, polysyndeton, and chiasmus.

I like reading books and I know literature is important, but I don’t need to take a class in order to read and analyze books. Certainly, if I wasn’t taking English class, I would have more time to read books that I actually like.

Is it just me or is America getting dumber.

I think it’s just you. There is plenty of reason to believe that American is getting smarter, including growing IQ scores (http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/FLYNNEFF.html) and higher percentage of high school and college graduates (http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/highschool.htm). Academically, American just sucks compared to other industrial nations, and that is only in the math and sciences. So if you are going to make any courses mandatory, it should be the math and science courses.

[hobielover]

For me, English classes actually boosted my weighted GPA. (I had all As, not to brag, so nothing would boost my unweighted GPA.) I feel like out of my English classes, I probably got the most out of English IV in my senior year, so even though I had to go to school for a semester for that and a math class on my Senior year before I could graduate, I feel like I got something out of it. (I took algebra in middle school. If anything, I think that extra math shouldn't be compulsory for students who have taken the 4 necessary classes, though not all in high school, e.g. high school-level math in middle school.)

Also, in my school, there were people that age that couldn't read! American people That's why they need to emphasize English. People need to know how to read and write in order to get and hold jobs. There are also many immigrants in the US, so they also need to read and write in English. Analyzing poetry is hard, but I do the same thing learning Chinese. Had I not learned that, how could I do that in a foreign language? How could I appreciate the lyrics to Jay's songs?

[LittleMissMishi]

Hmm, well I really don't know about this one.

I guess it really depends on who you are and what you like in order to decide if it's fair or not.

(Farther more, I'm leaning more into the "it is not fair at all" side xD)

[Qinghe]

Where I am english is required in years 11 and 12 as well. I believe it should be because where I am up to level 10 just doesn't seem like enough. I feel like I still don't know how to write effectively or ways to move people. I also kind of like the class because it teaches everything from poetry to reading to writing essays and stories. It's a really nice skill to have to be able to write well. I believe it would help very much in the world whichever career one decides to follow.

[zashuna]

Since we are on the topic of English class, I found this humorous cartoon from xkcd that encapsulates everything I feel about English class and how it is taught (at least in my school):

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/impostor.png

[judes]

But, is it really necessary for someone who plans on going to computer graphics or science to take English? In science, you’ll need to write scientific papers, but you don’t need to be a very good writer; you only need to be clear. (And if you really plan on going into a science, professors will teach you how to write scientific papers anyways.)

as someone who is going to graduate with a science degree...i completely disagree. there are plenty of would-be scientists out there who cannot convey what their experiments conclude through writing, and this negatively affects how fast you publish papers and how your peers respect you. academic writing is extremely important, and although on the surface, it doesn't have an obvious relationship with literary critique/analysis/theory, but there is still a relationship present.

you know that publishing your papers is the accepted way of communicating your findings to the scientific community. and that while i would say that you can work on your presentation and public speaking skills (because a lot of people entering the research field doesn't have a lot of experience in that), the professor isn't going to "teach you how to write a paper". in my past four years in university, no professor has ever "taught" me how to write a paper. i am expected to produce something, and the professor suggests changes. you wouldn't even be able to get into a lab with mediocre grades (a lot of which is dependent on writing term papers once you get into the more advanced science courses).

literary analysis also teaches you critical thinking. while interpreting literature is sometimes ridiculous, but it does teach you to THINK. what is this author trying to express? where is this author coming from? how does this literary work fit into the world at the time and its place in society now? it teaches you to look at the bigger picture, something which is sadly lacking in many classrooms, and which i believe is necessary to science in order to see how your work connects to everybody else's.

so what' i'm saying is: english is important. learn how to write. learn how to write WELL. your writing skills are one of the few skills you will use consistently for the rest of your life.

[zashuna]

Based on my own experiences, with writing scientific papers as well talking to science teachers and engineers, learning how to write is important only to a certain degree. They have all stated that, in retrospect, high school English has been pretty much completely useless to them, given the fact that you don’t actually learn how to write in those classes. Even if you want to improve your writing skills, taking English classes is hardly going to help since, as I have previously mentioned, you don’t learn how to write anymore.

What I meant by professors “teaching you how to write a paper” is that they give you the basic guidelines and expectations and they do do that (at least in high school). You don’t need superfluous writing skills. I am writing from experience and from conversations I have had with natural and social science teachers and engineers. They focus more on content and less on style. Obviously, you do want to follow the rules of grammar and make sure that your paper is coherent. But, it’s usually unnecessary to embellish it with a variety of synonyms and polydyndeton and symploce, or whatnot.

But, I do concede that developing writing skills is important. I would have absolutely no problem with teaching grammar and how to actually write in English, since many people I know have bad writing skills. This statement might seem like it contradicts my previous statement about people developing practical English skills by 11 and 12 grades, but it actually doesn’t. Basically, what I originally wrote was:

In any case, even if English focuses heavily on grammar, it still shouldn’t be mandatory at the 11 and 12 grades. By then, you would have already gotten a strong enough command of the English language for practical purposes.

What I was saying is if English class was writing and grammar intensive, which it isn’t, then students would probably develop the necessary skills by the 11 and 12 grades to have a practical command of English. There probably wouldn’t be as many bad writers nor would there be as many scientists as you have previously mentioned who struggle with writing. I am by no means saying that in our current society, most students have developed practical writing skill by those grade levels.

literary analysis also teaches you critical thinking. while interpreting literature is sometimes ridiculous, but it does teach you to THINK.

Oh no, it doesn’t. As so cleverly and humorously illustrated in that cartoon, literary analysis, if anything, teaches you sophistry and how to convincingly BS statements. Though, I suppose that might be helpful if you plan on being a lawyer or a politician (just kidding… aspiring lawyers and politicians, please don’t kill me). There is very little thinking involved, never mind critical thinking. If you really want to learn how to think, take a philosophy class, which, sadly, isn’t offered in many high schools. I have learned more about thinking and reasoning in a week long study of logic in my philosophy class than I have ever learned in my four years of high school English, and that is not an exaggeration. Or, take a class in history. I don’t really know about other schools, but I love how history is taught in my school, because the question of “why?” surfaces all the time. And, unlike English, in history class, you can’t get away with answering the question by BS-ing some superficially-convincing answer. You actually need to support your arguments with evidence and logic! OMG, can you believe that?

what is this author trying to express? where is this author coming from? how does this literary work fit into the world at the time and its place in society now?

I have no problem with trying to answer those questions. What I do have a problem with is the approach English teachers use to answer those questions, which involves copious amounts of BS-ing (there really is no other word to describe it). Of course, this is mostly, based on personal experience. But, I have talked to students from other schools about this and there is reason to believe that English is taught this way in many other schools as well. I honestly feel bad for all the authors whose books are “taught” in my English class.

it teaches you to look at the bigger picture, something which is sadly lacking in many classrooms, and which i believe is necessary to science in order to see how your work connects to everybody else's.

I really do wish English teaches you to look at the bigger picture. When we read 1984, we spent much more time making baseless inferences off of George Orwell’s use of language than we actually spent on looking at the structure of the Orwellian society. The society and government of Oceania is one of the most important elements of 1984 and examining it can help us better understand Orwell’s use of language. But no, we didn’t do that. I even wrote my essay on the government of 1984, but my teacher disapprovingly wrote that I focused too much on the overall picture and too little on the analysis of language. What I probably should have written about is something like fire imagery or architecture imagery with a bunch of BS for a good grade. Now, I make sure all my essays are about language and I have to pretend that I give a damn. But, that is the thing with our education system. Sometimes you have to compromise honesty in order to succeed academically.

On a more positive note, I wish English class is taught like French class. French class, on the other hand, is highly writing and grammar intensive, especially AP French. We write a French essay every 7 school days. As a result, French students are generally very confident in their writing skills. We do read literature in French class, but that is not the main focus. Not only that, the way literature is analyzed in French class is highly logical. Students who love using the BS technique, which is so successful in English class, find that it is useless in French class.