Can Creationism and Evolution Both Be Right? [Archive]

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10-28-2003, 03:01 AM

in other words...can they coexist in harmony?

i hope i'm not setting up more timber for ignition here...i know its kind of a weird time to touch on a serious subject like this...but i am dying to know your replies. this is for a project in a class i'm attending as well as just...out of my sheer and desperate, yes, desperate curiosity.

attention- this is not a debate topic between evolution and creationism. this is a topic for Christian and Evolutionists to discuss whether Creationism and Evolutionism can both be true.
so no barrage of "evolutionism is wrong!" or "creationism is evil!" please...merci mes amis.

post what you think...i'll disclose my own answer later...i don't wish to influence anyone by posting my philosophy first. so...go ahead, i won't bite...

unless...:sideways:

vunsin

10-28-2003, 03:32 AM

I was born and brought up a Christian, so I believed in Creationism until I started attending college. And then I took a bunch of psychology and philosophy classes and made philosophy my minor, so I ended up believing in Evolutionism instead. If I HAVE to choose to believe in one religion I'd still say Christianity, but honestly, I just don't believe in God anymore.

Anyhow, I graduated with my first degree three years ago, so I can't really remember what I've learned in my philosophy and psychology classes. But from what I could remember, I think it's possible for the two concepts to co-exist. Why not? If I go the scientific/philosophical way, I'd say that it there's a God, he/she has to be an alien with superpowers. He/she might not have caused the big bang, but he/she could've done other things.

I don't believe in miracles, but I do know that there are some things yet to be explained by science. So there has to be some superpower making these things happen, right? And how do we know there are no other life forms in other universe? Maybe one of them (or even a whole group of them) could be our
"God."

I hope this answers your question. No offense to religious people.

Vant

10-28-2003, 04:49 AM

The whole fact that man was created by god (Directly...) already intercepts Evolutionism*... I really don't think they can co-exist even if people tried...

I don't believe in miracles, but I do know that there are some things yet to be explained by science. So there has to be some superpower making these things happen, right? And how do we know there are no other life forms in other universe? Maybe one of them (or even a whole group of them) could be our
"God."

It's nice to keep your mind open to different things... You're basicly explaining some of my main beliefs... ;p

vunsin

10-28-2003, 07:03 AM

10-29-2003, 01:45 AM

to disagree with you, the scientific reason is pretty much proven and accepted. In lab trials they have created experiments which recreated life in stimualted experiments. Ican't remember at the top of my head cause it was covered in my bilogy course 4 years ago and briefely covered again in my astronomy course 2 years ago, but if i had the time to reasearch i can prove you wrong.

Then again thsi isnt a debate.. however it is rather ignorant just to point out one side, so byt defualt i feel as if it is necessary to point out the other side so the readers can make an accurate judgement call based on their personal values

and btw please do no tfalme callign me stupid or whatnot, this is my opinon and you are allowed to make urs, jsut like I am allowed to make mine

who exactly are you talking to? because i didn't incline my post one way or the other.

anyways, the Pope and the general Catholic Church adopting Evolution as possibility is one of the main reasons this research project was suggested.

i'm surprised no other people have an opinion regarding this. there seemed to be much more people here who actually care about this issue, as it provides justification for our moralities or lack thereof.

oh i forgot to mention something. talk like that is cheap and unnecessary for this topic in the first place. you already inclined your post towards an aggressive tone, which means that even if you did state you hold knowledge that "this isn't a debate topic" several times thereafter, you've already crossed the line.

people, that is an example of what not to do. =)

m o n k e e

10-29-2003, 03:12 AM

My view is that both Creationism and Evolutionism can co-exist. Those that argue vigorously for one side are really missing the point of both theories. Evolutionism or Darwinism is a scientific theory aimed on specifically and thus scientifically answering questions as to the biological origins of our world. And through scientific research, it appears this theory maybe true. Creationism, along with everything else in the Bible, was written sveral thousand years ago by a people who did not have the benefit of science as we do today, but their attempts to explain where we come from are not necessarily wrong, though at face value they may not appear accurate. The point is they are NOT meant to be accurate, rather, Creationism is a symbolic and metaphoric theory, through the use of metaphor and myth, to explain what essentially may be true. The message of Creationism is very clear yet some people get caught up in the specifics of the story ( like on the third day he created this or that.... all of which is unimportant), the message remains: that God created the universe, God created life, and God created man, (and also being lazy ass on Sunday is acceptable coz God was!). Can anybody dispute that? You cannot compare both theories and say "Hmmm yes this is right, this is wrong" because they weren't meant for that purpose.

If you take this viewpoint, you will see that in actual fact, both theories do not necessarily contridict. So in a cent Evolutionism: scientific, specific... whilst Creationism: is symbolic, metaphoric.

Vant

10-29-2003, 06:02 AM

Can anybody dispute that? You cannot compare both theories and say "Hmmm yes this is right, this is wrong" because they weren't meant for that purpose.

Many evolutionists disagree... And they apparantly don't care if it wasn't meant for the purpose of dispute...

Anyways... Most likely creationists can co-exist with evolutionists... But it does not happen the other way around... Mainly because of the fact that there are so many things they don't agree with the bible... The first testomonies of the bible already contradict evolutionist views... But the first chapter of evolution doesn't contradict the bible (Whether it be change or survival of the best) Get my point?

cici bebe

10-29-2003, 06:44 AM

Most likely creationists can co-exist with evolutionists... But it does not happen the other way around...
Wrong-O. I don't believe the two can co-exist because as a Christian you believe all of the Bible or none of it. Can't just pick out the believable and disregard the rest. It's either God created the world or he didn't. And I believe He did.

But the first chapter of evolution doesn't contradict the bible (Whether it be change or survival of the best)
My goodness. Are you.. clueless about the Bible? Have you read it at all? I would guess no since you sound like a total mindless bog. Evolution is based on a living cell popping out of an explosion whereas the Bible clearly states God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1). Doesn't contridict, eh? Shows your knowledge about Christians huh? =)

Mike

10-29-2003, 03:53 PM

Maybe, God created things one way, but left evolution, natural selection, to stay. It is a little extra gift, you can say. But i don't know. OR maybe evolution was part of the process of creation (i mentioned this in the other thread, or was it some other one, but Jo said something about it, forgot what). But that's just an idea, i won't except either until i'm sure of it.

10-29-2003, 04:03 PM

The whole fact that man was created by god (Directly...) already intercepts Evolutionism*... I really don't think they can co-exist even if people tried...

Anyways... Most likely creationists can co-exist with evolutionists... But it does not happen the other way around... Mainly because of the fact that there are so many things they don't agree with the bible... The first testomonies of the bible already contradict evolutionist views... But the first chapter of evolution doesn't contradict the bible (Whether it be change or survival of the best) Get my point?

hmm...what is this i see?

an apparent contradiction?

would you care to explain this apparent contradiction you've made in your posts? what about the fact that you wrote evolution does not contradict the bible? and please explain what the first chapter of evolution is, as well as clarifying what you meant by the first testimony of the Bible.

kahel

10-29-2003, 04:48 PM

Just my two cents...

Since I was raised as a Catholic and spent my early school years in a Catholic School, I was fairly exposed to the concept of Creationism..."And there was light". I've always thought it was brilliant. And then came Science and the theories of Evolution. It clearly contradicts the concept of Creationism but fairly brilliant too.

The complexities of the Evolution theory and the wonders of how every single living thing on earth evolved from something billions of years ago -- I think and agree with Vunsin that some things can't be explained by Science, no matter how we try. This could be possibly explained that there is indeed a higher being out there that provoked such phenomena.

God may not have created us the way the bible said so, but he may have been resposible for our existence through evolution.

I have always believed this. It does take a lot of faith.Ü

cici bebe

10-30-2003, 02:42 AM

Mike

10-30-2003, 07:33 AM

God may not have created us the way the bible said so, but he may have been resposible for our existence through evolution.
If that were true, wouldn't God let us know and put at least something that he made us through Evolution in the Bible? .. Instead, there isn't any indication in the Bible that in any way were we created from Evolution.

if God wanted to tell people someting back then, he would tell it in simplier forms... he never told the people of the Bible how the body is made up, that the earth was round... etc. i'm nto saying that it's correct... that God used evolution for our existence

Vant

10-31-2003, 06:30 AM

*sigh*

Vant wrote:
Most likely creationists can co-exist with evolutionists... But it does not happen the other way around...

Wrong-O. I don't believe the two can co-exist because as a Christian you believe all of the Bible or none of it. Can't just pick out the believable and disregard the rest. It's either God created the world or he didn't. And I believe He did.

That's your opinion... That's great... But I was (Man I need to learn how to do this better) referring the the article about the Pope and him agreeing on evolution...

Vant wrote:
But the first chapter of evolution doesn't contradict the bible (Whether it be change or survival of the best)

My goodness. Are you.. clueless about the Bible? Have you read it at all? I would guess no since you sound like a total mindless bog. Evolution is based on a living cell popping out of an explosion whereas the Bible clearly states God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1). Doesn't contridict, eh? Shows your knowledge about Christians huh? =)

Evolution... Notice that it has many different meanings... The one I am referring to is the process (Mutations... Survival of good mutations... Etc.)... And as the Pope said...

Pope John Paul has lent his support to the theory of evolution, proclaming it compatible with Christian faith in a step welcomed by scientists but likely to raise howls from the religious right.

And you're right about me... I don't know much about Christians... I never attempted to study it (Although I've been forced to church for a month or so... I also own a bible for reference from the past church)... I merely entered this thread to voice my opinons... Not argue over this... I really have better things to do ;p

would you care to explain this apparent contradiction you've made in your posts? what about the fact that you wrote evolution does not contradict the bible? and please explain what the first chapter of evolution is, as well as clarifying what you meant by the first testimony of the Bible.

Yeah... You caught me... After reading the article on the Pope it changed my mind about some things...

But the first chapter of evolution doesn't contradict the bible (Whether it be change or survival of the best)

No real first chapter... But from my view it would be one of those two...

The first testomonies of the bible already contradict evolutionist views
For example
1:27 "So God made man like his Maker. Like God did God make man; Man and maid did he make them.

Evolutionists really think that man is an evolved form of apes...

Anyways... If I would of known I would be basicly yelled at for my opinions... I would have simply kept them to myself... I thought this thread had some argument protection unlike the other one -_-

cici bebe

10-31-2003, 06:39 AM

I don't see how.. that verse has anything to do w/ evolution.. Only that it contridicts it saying God made man, not God made apes that would eventually make man.

Vant

10-31-2003, 06:44 AM

Evolutionists really think that man is an evolved form of apes... And that we weren't just created out of thin air... Er space... Emptyness... w/e ;p

cici bebe

10-31-2003, 07:03 AM

But instead we were created from a big explosion. Oh right that clicks now. :wink2:

Anyway, we'll see if this gets any more feedback. If not and we keep biting at each other then it defeats the purpose of the non-argument that Jo wanted and the thread should cease to live on.

Vant

10-31-2003, 07:24 AM

Boo ;p

But instead we were created from a big explosion. Oh right that clicks now.

How does that relate to evolution? ;p

11-01-2003, 12:14 AM

here is my view, and really, the only correct view there is regarding this matter. not to sound egotistical or what have you, but this is the flat truth, Christians, whether it stings in your eyes or not.

evolution and creationism can never coexist in harmony. from what the evolutionists have voiced in this topic, we can see that some of them think there is room for progressive evolution and some believe that creationism falls short of anything scientific. but to us, Christians, the issue at hand is this.

would you rather put your faith in fallable human assumptions or in the infallable word of God?

here's what it boils down to. a Christian cannot take Genesis literally if he is to believe in any part of what is referred to as evolution. not play on words like "mutation," or micro-evoltuion, mind you, but the true scientific definition of the very term evolution based on observations of natural selection and other natural causes. the truth is that Genesis stated that God created the world in six, and only six days. this very fact contradicts the theory that the earth is millions and billions of years old. why then, would Christians try to compromise their foundational beliefs to accommodate the theory of evolution?

the answer is simple. being raised and taught evolution ever since a young age in this humanistic society, it is sometimes difficult for us to apply any sort of abstractness to our faith in God. humans are abstract thinkers, which is ironic, as we hate ambiguities in general. it is hard for us to understand God and His work, his abilities and impossible for us to apply logic to God and His sense of time. therefore, the easiest way out is to rely on other sources...such as other humans. we rely on earthly scientists to give us answers to celestial presences, and their answer is that there is no divine being. obviously, that is hard for us to accept, as we are also Christians. therefore, many of us try a blend of both, a bit of evolution and a bit of creationism, to satisfy our own thirst for intellectual satisfaction.

i have no respect for people like that, sorry to say. God would rather have you be completely against him or love him to death, not an in between lukewarm condition. he will spit you out of his mouth, if that is to happen. we all know that evolution is still a theory regardless of how you try to deny it. if there is any part that cannot be observed in part or whole, any process that cannot be replicated and anything at all still left a mystery, it is a theory and not a fact. therefore, Christians, why would you use fallable, human assumptions to interpret the infallable, divine word of God?

Vant no one is yelling at you for anything. we just lack knowledge of what you're trying to express and asked you to clarify.

and Mike, actually...the Bible does mention that the world is a sphere. which is interesting, isn't it? thousands of years before the period of time that people believed the world was a flat platform you could fall out of...the Hebrews already had preconceived notion that the world is a sphere?

shouling

11-01-2003, 12:39 AM

would you rather put your faith in fallable human assumptions or in the infallable word of God?

i am totally with you on thay Jo.
as a Christian i feel that science says nothing. you cant prove there is a God, so what.
i KNOW he is there
i KNOW what he has done
and i KNOW what he does.
i dont know how, but that doesnt matter to me cuz i BELIEVE~!

i would never thow away my faith for scientific resons.

God would rather have you be completely against him or love him to death, not an in between lukewarm condition.

i also agree with this. you either have faith, or you dont. not both.

cici bebe

11-01-2003, 01:14 AM

Mike: The Bible has also mentioned "mountains under the sea", thousands of years before man even knew that anything existed under the waters. Many people believe the Bible solely because so far, ALL the prophecies have come true.

Vant: Explosion = Big Bang = Evolution.. *click*

Yes Jo is right, for Christians to believe that creationism and evolution both exist is being lukewarm, in which God will spit you out of his mouth. Again, we can't believe in only a PART of the Bible and then some scientific theories.

-+my-memory+-

11-01-2003, 01:47 AM

uumm... i believe that both co-exist... because both has like their own beliefs and morals... they both have acceptable veiws... since both science and religion do co-exist right now.... i am currecntly studying at a catholic school... and like i do quite a lot of creation stories within the subject religion.... but of course i also study science so therefore i do learn about evolution... however if a person was to believe on the catholic side then there will be creation due to god... and if a person was to believe in science... then evolution would be the choice...but like both should co-exist because both have a reasonable view for it's existence right now...i believe in evolution...a lilttle bit more due to myself not being a chirstian however i accept and respect those who in favour of creationism

fat_penguin

11-01-2003, 02:21 AM

and Mike, actually...the Bible does mention that the world is a sphere. which is interesting, isn't it? thousands of years before the period of time that people believed the world was a flat platform you could fall out of...the Hebrews already had preconceived notion that the world is a sphere?

yeah.. in Isaiah 40:22 it says
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Vant

11-01-2003, 04:27 AM

Vant: Explosion = Big Bang = Evolution.. *click*

Big Bang is just a large theory... Like Evolution... But to believe in one of them doesn't mean you believe in the other...

i have no respect for people like that, sorry to say. God would rather have you be completely against him or love him to death, not an in between lukewarm condition. he will spit you out of his mouth, if that is to happen. we all know that evolution is still a theory regardless of how you try to deny it. if there is any part that cannot be observed in part or whole, any process that cannot be replicated and anything at all still left a mystery, it is a theory and not a fact. therefore, Christians, why would you use fallable, human assumptions to interpret the infallable, divine word of God?

Either you're with God... Or without him... I agree... Why bend the rules to your faith?

Would this make the pope... Not faithful?