The objectification of women in music

[countess]

I can't tolerate any of the R&B MV's that objectify women and show them as sex objects or toys for the men, it's absolutely disgusting and demoralising. For that reason, i find listening to Western music these days unbearable because most of these R&B songs focus on sex, money and more sex. That song P.I.M.P infuriated me because it was SO POPULAR, and some of my friends even sang it!! The girls on that MV probably "won" those roles over thousands of other women willing to downgrade themselves for a bit of fame and money.

Even though i don't regard myself as a feminist, i think the popularity and craze for R&B music that demoralises females is a huge step backwards from an attempt to create equality between the genders. It is evident that the media will largely influence a society's values and ways of thinking, so what do these lyrics/images say to our generation? Consequently, many will be led to believe that what they see on television is part of the norm; we can already see this emerging in our "tweens" with the extra extra short mini skirts and crops.

I'm not saying that a female should not embrace their sexuality, but there is a difference between toys for the men and whoever wants to view a women for physical, sexual purposes only and having enough confidence within oneself to present it. I think it's a question of personal integrity. If anyone has opposing views to mine, i urge you to voice them because i think mine are quite conservative atm and it would be great to get many more perspectives on this.

Ok, a few questions i have for everyone. Firstly, many of my friends who do enjoy R&B say that the lyrics/content of MV's don't bother them when they listen to it because they don't really take them into account. I would agree that many people listen to R&B solely for its catchy rhythms, raps, beat etc, but even at that unconscious level, are we being influenced?

Secondly, what do you think makes the R&B genre so popular in our society these days? Since i'm not particularly interested in that genre, I don't have too many good points to say, maybe it's because of their catchy beats? (hell they all sound repetetive to me too!)

[zhy378]

Firstly, many of my friends who do enjoy R&B say that the lyrics/content of MV's don't bother them when they listen to it because they don't really take them into account. I would agree that many people listen to R&B solely for its catchy rhythms, raps, beat etc, but even at that unconscious level, are we being influenced?

yes, as we use the reason to listen to the latest r+b hiphop rap songs for their catchy beats, i think we are also being influenced by the lyrics. as listeners listen more to those topics of sex and women, then the more they are accepting that it is okay for those subjects to be talked.

also the messages it is trying to send that some people arent taking it seriously. for example, whenever a latest song containing -describing about sex and degrading women, there are kids even girls who will sing along those words, females repeating words that degrade their own gender and yet there are more music coming out with more songs containingg words of sex and degradation of women.

though, how come we dont see many songs of female singers singing-rapping about degrading men?:shifty:

[Pugwash]

Well, rhythm and blues (R&B) generally focuses on the topic of sex, women and money, so it's not a surprise to see where you're getting at. I think you kind of answered your own question in your post. Certain videos will tell you the men are using the women, cheated on her, she cheated on him, blah blah blah. They're being used, abused then dumped in the videos. It's just the way the song is written and it's being conveyed in a way that puts down women (most of the time). Society has just made it so that men are allowed to jump from women to women without any problems, whereas if a women were to do that, then they're suddenly a whore.

Anyways, it's just the way things are presented in this day and age.

[happifruit]

You said it all. I've had this anger boiling around me for quite awhile now but I've never been able to find anywhere to vent it.

I can't tolerate any of the R&B MV's that objectify women and show them as sex objects or toys for the men, it's absolutely disgusting and demoralising[...]

That was one main reason why I stopped listening to Western music a few years ago. I guess you can say I'm feministically-inclined, and it made me angry and sick whenever I hear lyrics that say things like "My Shorty" or "My Bitch" or whatever. Watching the MVs make me so mad, and the saddest thing is, these girls are willing put themselves into these positions as sex toys for men!

There's a fine line between degradation of female sexuality and female empowerment. The first one is putting yourself down and letting men exploit your sexuality, whereas to me, the latter are women who respect themselves and know their worth, and who refuse to let anyone take that away from them.

This is, in reality, another form of sexism, that has now seeped into sexuality itself. Instead of just being physically and emotionally oppressed by men, women are now, at times even willing to be sexually oppressed as well. It's working against everything that females have fought for for decades.
It's also very very sad the way this has come to influence our popular culture, how nobody seems to think that it's wrong. It teaches young males that it's alright for to disrepect female sexuality, and young females that they don't need respect for that.

About the females in the MVs, I remember flipping on Oprah one day, and she had this one woman on the show... I think her name was Terran Williams...she used to do rap videos, and she wrote a book about her experiences and how exploited the women on those shoots are...how they're just rented objects like the rest of the stuff on the video...how in her mind now that she's woken up was that really it wasn't anything different from being a prostitute because those girls are giving up their sexuality to the men in the video for money...how there was this one producer who came into her trailer when she was sleeping and demanded that she give him oral sex if she still wanted to do the video...how she was called a whore...and the sad thing is it was so accepted that the women felt that there was nothing wrong with being brought down to that level.

I'm disgusted and very, very saddened.

[Sugar&Spice]

First of all lets get something straight. R&B means rythem & Blues. Yes someone mentioned it, but did not presnt it right. Before making a topic make sure the facts are straight. R&B is a totally different style then what you are talking about. R&B is a smooth kind of music, I should know, I grew up listening to it. The kind of music you are reffering to, is called, Rap, or gansta rap, where they do degrade women, and talk about money, and drugs. That king or music, in my opinion stinks. But don't insult R&B because you don't know which is which. Being black, that is kind of an insult, when you mistake R&B with filthy rap, and gansta rap. Its two different things honey.

[venetta]

I agree with Sugar&Spice that those music are not R&B, those are gangsta rap or just rude rap.

Those women in the MV's have degraded women to a very low extent. But then again, not only the models, even girls band like Pussycat Dolls are doing the same thing. It seems to be the 'in' thing to be dressed scantily and danced erotically. They appeared more like prostitute selling themselves for free.

However, most of these rappers are blacks, I'm not saying anything about blacks, don't get me wrong, but most of them come from low-class society. The poor ones. So once they make it to the top they tend to flaunt what they have. Usually the 'blings blings', big cars, big houses and, yes, women. I watched Scarface the DVD set where there is this special menu in which some rappers identified themselves to the lead character of the movie. They confessed that they want to show the whole world that they could make it. So women, in this case, just come in with the package.

What they do to some extent is understandable, what I do not get is why the women let themselves be treated like that. Those models surely have a choice over their appearances. They even fought over each other to be in the video, and hence willing to do anything. I mean anything. There are more and more of these kinda videos because it's easy to find women who are willing to do this kinda thing. All we could do is too condemn, but it is quite hard to stop unless there are no more women in this freaking world who would take up the job.

And why this music is so popular? I think it's the music that's just want to make you dance. BUt the lyrics are not that important, because honestly most of the time you can't even catch what the singer is talking about. They're just murmuring.
That's what I think.

[ultramanDJ]

let's face it guys... sex sells... and music is a business... you think britney spears got a record deal cause she has a fantastic diva-ish voice? hell no~ it's just a way of life.. as long as guys keep thinking with their thingies~ it's just a never ending cycle of supply and demand~

[ekyec]

How interesting, i recenlty did my yearlies English Oral on this topic.

About the females in the MVs, I remember flipping on Oprah one day, and she had this one woman on the show... I think her name was Terran Williams...she used to do rap videos, and she wrote a book about her experiences and how exploited the women on those shoots are...how they're just rented objects like the rest of the stuff on the video...how in her mind now that she's woken up was that really it wasn't anything different from being a prostitute because those girls are giving up their sexuality to the men in the video for money...how there was this one producer who came into her trailer when she was sleeping and demanded that she give him oral sex if she still wanted to do the video...how she was called a whore...and the sad thing is it was so accepted that the women felt that there was nothing wrong with being brought down to that level.

I read about that too. Its outrageous, the problem is, why did these women put themselves in this position, by taking up the jobs in the first place.
Prostitution is the lowest level a women could go in terms of physical/emotinal sacrifice. and i'm sure there's other ways to earn a living as well.
i hate how all this RnB and american hip hop that is so popular nowadays is getting to the heads of teenagers and tweens these days. And if this raunch culture, and objectification of women becomes a norm, we've just taken 10000 steps back, and all the hardwork women in the late twentieth century have put in establishing a sense of respect and gender equality just goes down the drain.

The Oprah show also feature Pink and she commented on how young hollywood celebrities, the likes of Paris Hilton[remember how the leaked sex video actually seemed to enhace her carreer?], lindsay lohan and jessica simpson who purposely act dumb, try to act sexy, and it is all just lucrative.

And I also heard how 50 cent, came out on stage in his concert in this chariot pulled by women naked in chains. wtf? and his lyrics, who the hell does he think he is.
And to think he actually got to the top of the charts. don't know what the hell going on in the heads of listeners today.

This mainstream culture is just fuelling its way in this downhill slide. besides the fact alll the rnb and hip hop sounds almost the same, the same beats, the same lyrical content, I think for this to change, we need a new wave of music, that promotes better values, we need music that people sincerely put there hearts in, not just something mixed up and released to make truckloads of cash. come on composers out there!

[Sugar&Spice]

How interesting, i recenlty did my yearlies English Oral on this topic.



I read about that too. Its outrageous, the problem is, why did these women put themselves in this position, by taking up the jobs in the first place.
Prostitution is the lowest level a women could go in terms of physical/emotinal sacrifice. and i'm sure there's other ways to earn a living as well.
i hate how all this RnB and american hip hop that is so popular nowadays is getting to the heads of teenagers and tweens these days. And if this raunch culture, and objectification of women becomes a norm, we've just taken 10000 steps back, and all the hardwork women in the late twentieth century have put in establishing a sense of respect and gender equality just goes down the drain.

The Oprah show also feature Pink and she commented on how young hollywood celebrities, the likes of Paris Hilton[remember how the leaked sex video actually seemed to enhace her carreer?], lindsay lohan and jessica simpson who purposely act dumb, try to act sexy, and it is all just lucrative.

And I also heard how 50 cent, came out on stage in his concert in this chariot pulled by women naked in chains. wtf? and his lyrics, who the hell does he think he is.
And to think he actually got to the top of the charts. don't know what the hell going on in the heads of listeners today.

This mainstream culture is just fuelling its way in this downhill slide. besides the fact alll the rnb and hip hop sounds almost the same, the same beats, the same lyrical content, I think for this to change, we need a new wave of music, that promotes better values, we need music that people sincerely put there hearts in, not just something mixed up and released to make truckloads of cash. come on composers out there!

First of all, like I said," R&B IS NOT RAP, GANSTA RAP!!" I don't see why you have a hard time filtering that through. You quoted R&B several times when you spoke about these degradeing things. If you don't know which is which, then before posting you really need to look it up.

Also Rap, is not the only music that is degrading now-a-days. I like how another poster, mentioned Britny Spears. She not only constantly, talks about sex in her music, she also has a problem putting clothes on. And she is not Hip-Hop style, but Pop style. Madonna, was filthy, and she was not Hip-Hop. And how about other stars that are degrading, and filthy, but are not Hip-Hop stars?! It seems to be a trend to always blame Hip-Hop for the downgrade of music. But if you ask me, that is music in general. So if you want to pin, Hip-Hop, you better pin-point the rest of the music industry too.

[ekyec]

well sorry for over-generalising. i'd say its bits of pop, hip hop, rnb and rap, which make up a majority of the mainstream american music we hear when we turn on the radio.

I'm not saying all of hip hop or rap or rnb is bad, i'm just mentioned/referred to them because they present the most prominently in the objectification of females.
Of course there is heaps of good rnb, hip hop and rap music, thats partly the reason it got so popular, and many good stuff are still composed and written at this moment, but it just that in the past years, it seems to be that many[not all] from this genre [and pop music in general] that degrade music. its a shame that much of the real good stuff worth listening too from these genres, are being overshadowed by the crap stuff that sells, largely because sex sells, and whoever the singer and with a contextual background that an pull in money, sings it.

and well, i did mention paris hilton and friends, all who are obviously not even remotely muscians or from the hip hop rap rnb genre, but are still fuelling the women-are-just-sex-objects thing and are, by singing the same old pop, synthesized song and dancing around in their MV as well as degrading the image of women by how they choose to present their own images in general.

[Sugar&Spice]

well sorry for over-generalising. i'd say its bits of pop, hip hop, rnb and rap, which make up a majority of the mainstream american music we hear when we turn on the radio.

I'm not saying all of hip hop or rap or rnb is bad, i'm just mentioned/referred to them because they present the most prominently in the objectification of females.
Of course there is heaps of good rnb, hip hop and rap music, thats partly the reason it got so popular, and many good stuff are still composed and written at this moment, but it just that in the past years, it seems to be that many[not all] from this genre [and pop music in general] that degrade music. its a shame that much of the real good stuff worth listening too from these genres, are being overshadowed by the crap stuff that sells, largely because sex sells, and whoever the singer and with a contextual background that an pull in money, sings it.

and well, i did mention paris hilton and friends, all who are obviously not even remotely muscians or from the hip hop rap rnb genre, but are still fuelling the women-are-just-sex-objects thing and are, by singing the same old pop, synthesized song and dancing around in their MV as well as degrading the image of women by how they choose to present their own images in general.

I agree, with you when you talk about the image. And how women as a whole degrade themselves. But everyone always blames Hip-Hop. I think that standards have dropped alot since a couple of years ago. Soon people are going to be walking out of their houses naked, and it would be the in thing to do. Moraly people just don't care anymore, espeacialy women, who are living it up on scren.

[happifruit]

IMoraly people just don't care anymore, espeacialy women, who are living it up on scren.

I agree with you. That's what saddens me the most. We women in general have to fight for respect and equality, but everytime a woman is willing to let herself be brought down it's a hit on all the women in the world who are still fighting.
Letting yourself be seen as a sex object or a man's plaything is not empowerment.

[soapie]

ah.. lot of good comments in here, i dont know where to begin. i applaud whoever started this topic! =D

i couldn't agree more... i cannot stand the portrayal of women in umm. hmm.. which genre shall i say.. hip hop videos? not just videos.. the lyrics too.

i stopped listening to hip hop primarily for this reason (and a lot of portrayal of violence, parties, drugs, and other things i dont care to listen to). however, i was introduced to a new kind of hip hop... hip hop with substance! with meaningful provoking lyrics.

anyone heard of Magnetic North?
www.magnetichiphip.com
www.myspace.com/magnetichiphip

[AZNiNjARaVeR]

the objectification of women is now showing up in Japan pop and hip-hop, even though the singers are female.
The style they dress, act and dance are styles to entertain men and help promote in a bad way their view and attitudes toward women.
The Objectification is not limited to "American music" anymore...its widespread

[cookiebandit]

it's true that the objectification of women in media is more widespread. but in the end, everything goes back to my No. 1 theory: everyone is selfish. yes... i mean in this world, no matter how hard we try to "be nice", is it really practical and possible to live such a life? ( i know like mother theresa and such, but majority of ppl). Doesn't everyone want the best for themselves? its not that ppl mind being nice, its just that as you grow, you learn and meet different types of people, and not everyone is the naive, innocent, nice type. The song, the video, the popularity, the message, the girls who won the audition to be in these videos... etc,etc, doesnt' it all equal money?

even IF people did all that b/c of money, i do agree that it becomes an obstacle for those who are highly against this matter. I, personally dont feel it as that big of an impact, only b/c i can't really relate to it, i've nvr had that kind of experience, and it's that ....its not really a new concept yknow? ppl become used to it. But i guess, if you ARE really against it, you should be the change yourself. It's not that im poking fun at it, but i know that I would prob understand the seriousness that you speak with on this topic, if someone were to like...make a diff/ and be that change.

and to answer your last question, why is r/b so popular. easy. its music. everybody has different takes on it. why do you think there are so many genres of music? its there to appeal to everyones palette.

[Rekki]

It gets annoying, but it's more of a fascination with sex (as a result of our puritanistic history) than as a function of sexism. Women act sexual themselves in their videos.

[7nameless7]

hm... i think R&B is like that.. but that is the style in the European countries.. well, at least Jay doesnt do that even thought he adds a pinch of R&B music in his style.. for that i'll stay cool..

[cookiebandit]

OOO! i came up with another point. I think some ppl were defending R/B and hip hop music, saying that not ALL objectification of women happen in R/B and hip-hop mvs.

weeelllllll..... lets describe the qualities of an R/B song/music.......smooth..... relaxing....sensual...calming...heartbreaking lyrics...night....i dk. u get the point. well it kinda seems like sex music! So maybe thats why we see R/B vids associated with this kind of image.

but r/b can still be slow-jam -ish (like jay's songs!) it's just something nice to listen to when you're kinda relaxing and not in the jumpy-lets-destroy-the-house mood =) but thats just my take on r/b. dont know exactly wht to say about hiphop mvs................

[happifruit]

The big thing about the hip-hop culture (at least what it seems to me) is that they tend to glorify things like sex...and over time this message gets pounded into the heads of men and women alike that it's okay to be treated like a sex toy.

However, the fact that there are people who don't like it for that reason is a start for it to move the other way. We can only hope that the number of women who see it for what it is outnumbers the number of women who have fallen into that trap.

[Sugar&Spice]

T
However, the fact that there are people who don't like it for that reason is a start for it to move the other way. We can only hope that the number of women who see it for what it is outnumbers the number of women who have fallen into that trap.

I couldn't agree with you more. I hope for the same thing. But it seems as if there are more women out there willing to lose all their self-respect to fit in. If they don't like hip-hop, they still fall into the fashion trends out here. For example: cleveage seems like it is getting to the point that you can show all of your breast and no one will think that it is wierd. How disgusting!! Happyfruit I think we are in the same mind frame with alot of our posts. Hopefully women will become tired of being degraded.

[godfather]

First of all, it's the evolution of partial American music by the African-American Artists, (I'd just call them rappers) who came up from undereducated backgrounds to come up with such deminishing lyrics into their compositions.

You must realize the fact that growing up in the neighborhood like that, their daily life evolves around the topics of sex, money, drugs, and bling-blings. Those people dont' have a norm that we are accustomed to. Children from the hood growing up seeing robberies, raping, and older people coming home talking the way they would later write songs about. It's a cultural emergence that women are objectified as sexual possesiion through their close looped communication and living. You can see this clearly in most of the rap music they shoot the mtv's with. It's usually the typical African-American life they opt for. It's something they don't have while they're kids, but they see and yearn for as they grow up.

Women are objectified, and those hood-rat women dont' know any better to speak for themselves or make a strong enough sentence to end such bad imagery of themselves. Besides, most women of that sort developed a dependency to men as they are growing up. They dont' aim for higher education to better themselves. Rather, they objectified themselves to depend on men to live their lives. And they can tolerate such state of their own denial that they are being put down. It's a cultural norm from the hoods. Those music video's reflect that very much.

Now, R&B isn't the only western music you'll find. You can listen to American Country music and achieve good enlightment with great visual satisfactions, too. Those video's do not objectify women as the R&B's do. The level of respect for women is totally different than what you'll see in the R&B's.

I can tell you right now, if you come from the hoods all your life, you'll get very used to the R&B's cultural emergences without a complaint. But since you're complaining, you're proven to have standards, morale, intellect, and educational backgrounds much higher than the hoodlums. Basically, you are not on the same frequency as those hoodlums are. That's good for you.

-Peter-

That's the sum of my analysis

[soapie]

godfather-

you make some good points. i agree with you to an extent, on how a lot of hip hop/rap developed from the hood, so they wrote about things like drug/violence/sex/bling bling or whatever, because that's what they were surrounded by. you write about what you know, right?

but what about current artists who did not come from that background but continue to perpetuate that image? (such as objectification of women).

[Sugar&Spice]

Godfather- I have to say this. What you just posted was nothing but an insult to the African American race. I'm reporting that post, since one of the mods in this forum always accuses me of arguing in the debate thread. You need to choose your words better then that. I'm African American, and I never lived in the hood, and have always gotten whatever I wanted!! I don't even know what the hood looks like. But you generalized a whole race, in what you just said, and it is insulting. Also there is alot of White rappers, and I even saw a chinese rapper, some years ago, although he never made it big. So to say it is only African Americans, and that we don't want to educate ourselves. Is IGNORANT!!! And when people make statements like that, it shows that they have low standards. I'm African American, and no one in my family has ever run around hanging in the hood. My grandfather worked alongside the mayor, of peeskill ny, and my brother worked with the mayor of brooklyn ny. There is a prestigiuos hall named after my uncle when he died. Called the byron marshall hall, in a prestiegious vetrens hospital. Dose that sound like a family of African American hoods, who are not educated to you?! You really need to re-educate yourself. Instead of making such rude remarks about another race.

Gangsta rap, in general is bad. No matter whpo is rapping it.

[jayx8318x]

Godfather- I have to say this. What you just posted was nothing but an insult to the African American race. I'm reporting that post, since one of the mods in this forum always accuses me of arguing in the debate thread.

Seriously, you need to learn to pick and choose your battles. godfather clearly addresses in his post which group of African Americans he is talking about. From your description of the "prestigious" background you hold, why are you offended? He is obviously not talking about the likes of you. And in no way did I get the feeling he was making a blanket statement about ALL black people. I'm not saying I agree with everything he says or the way he said it, but I'm responding to tell you to stop getting upset or reporting people just because they don't agree with you or mildly offend you in some way. This is the debate forum, disagreement and harsh opinions are expected.

What he wrote:
African Americans who are uneducated and from the hood perpetuate the glorification of drugs, sex, etc..

What you understood:
All African Americans are uneducated

That's a BIG misunderstanding there. For someone claiming to be so prestigious, I'd expect better reading comprehension skills.

If a non-asian person started making statements about how all the ghetto asian people who live in the hood are a bunch of car thieves and drug dealers, why would I get offended? 1). I'm not ghetto, 2). I don't live in the hood, 3). I'm not a thief or drug dealer

You really need to re-educate yourself. Instead of making such rude remarks about another race.
So if someone disagrees with you, you're entitled to call them stupid and tell them to get educated? Learn the finer rules of debate please, or actually READ & UNDERSTAND what the other person is saying.

Direct personal attacks like this is what is not allowed and should be reported. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and he stated his in the most civil way possible.

His points are actually valid in stating the environmental aspects of a person's upbringing is a catalyst to how they see the world and express themselves - this applies whether you're black, white, asian, hispanic, whatever.


I'm African American, and I never lived in the hood, and have always gotten whatever I wanted!!

Dare I ask, is that why you're always so whiny and irritable when someone disagrees with you and you don't get your way princess? :rolleyes:

[canuck_girl39]

Jay Chou stays clean with his hip-hop and R&B, but the MV "Ben Cao Gang Mu"... what's with the prostitutes at the beginning? o.o (Don't get me wrong, the rest of the vid was awesome!) Is he trying to fit into Western hip-hop image?

[Sugar&Spice]

Seriously, you need to learn to pick and choose your battles. godfather clearly addresses in his post which group of African Americans he is talking about. From your description of the "prestigious" background you hold, why are you offended? He is obviously not talking about the likes of you. And in no way did I get the feeling he was making a blanket statement about ALL black people. I'm not saying I agree with everything he says or the way he said it, but I'm responding to tell you to stop getting upset or reporting people just because they don't agree with you or mildly offend you in some way. This is the debate forum, disagreement and harsh opinions are expected.

Dare I ask, is that why you're always so whiny and irritable when someone disagrees with you and you don't get your way princess? :rolleyes:


I'm offended because to me it sounds as if he was generalizing. And no I'm not whiny, and irritable when others disagree with me. Princess?! :rolleyes:

And this was the only post that I ever repoted.

[godfather]

Sugar&Spice, you wrote:
Godfather- I have to say this. What you just posted was nothing but an insult to the African American race. I'm reporting that post, since one of the mods in this forum always accuses me of arguing in the debate thread. You need to choose your words better then that.
I wrote:
First of all, it's the evolution of partial American music by the African-American Artists, (I'd just call them rappers) who came up from undereducated backgrounds to come up with such deminishing lyrics into their compositions.I thought I have done a subtle job composing this claim statement together in one big senstence as a filtering device; also to exactly pinpoint my targeting subject: African-Americans from the Hoods. If you cannot read the whole sentence together and cogitate the meaning, then YOU need to re-educate yourself, not me. My 10th grade English Teacher lives 5 doors down, and I just checked with her. She is African American, and she doesn't feel a bit offended. She totally agrees with the statement, without further reading my supporting statements.
then you wrote:
I'm African American, and I never lived in the hood, Done, what's for you to talk about? You are filtered out by my claim statement. Why do you have to net this foolishness unto yourself by budding in the wrong grounds of a debate?
I don't even know what the hood looks like. But you generalized a whole race, in what you just said, and it is insulting. If you don't know what the hood looks like, you need to take a few vacation days there and learn it before you speak about it. The foundations of a debate are "claim and support and/or warrant". How do you jump into a debate without knowing exacly what my claim means? You do not have a valid standpoint to support your counter to my claim. I will not speak further to you about the hood till you are "down." I, with my family, lived in the hoods for a couple of years till we moved out. We've had a grocery store there, and I've been playing with them and made great friends, too. We all turned out okay, and my best buddies are in college with me right now. We all agreed to my statement, when they read as I typed every single letter into this post. We've grown up together listening to raps as we also come to the realization of this muical emergence. All these raps ever talked about is Women, Money, Drugs, and Bling-blings. Even my friends know all that, and they cannot agree with me more.
Rappers don't have to be African Americans, can be white, asian, as long as they are "down" with the hood life, they can rap all they want about it, objectifying women in their music and videoes. Only, so many of them are doing it so much that this phenomenon has "stylized" the music into a "norm". I didn't say other race rappers didn't do it, they contribute their share of the talent of composing the music. However, the main focus of my debate is the African Americans from the hoods, they started this thing. Did anyone of Whites or Asians do this before the African American Hoodlums made this cultural music so popular? NO! So, this further supports my claim that African Americans from the hoods started this "women objectifiying" music. It is an explicit fact.
And all these yada-yada:
So to say it is only African Americans, and that we don't want to educate ourselves. Is IGNORANT!!! And when people make statements like that, it shows that they have low standards. I'm African American, and no one in my family has ever run around hanging in the hood. My grandfather worked alongside the mayor, of peeskill ny, and my brother worked with the mayor of brooklyn ny. There is a prestigiuos hall named after my uncle when he died. Called the byron marshall hall, in a prestiegious vetrens hospital. Dose that sound like a family of African American hoods, who are not educated to you?! You really need to re-educate yourself. Instead of making such rude remarks about another race.
Look, it is more ignorant for a person to read a claim statement of a debate and simply filter out certain phrases on a personal level; then have the audacity to counter the claim with a poor debate. Princess, from what you put down in this thread, your prestigeous backgrounds earned you nothing but mistakes and futile efforts trying to stand your grounds. IF MY CLAIM STATEMENT TARGETS THE WHOLE AFRICAN AMERICAN RACE AS A WHOLE, THEN YOU WILL WIN. And I know better than making such a sorrowful mistake from my end. I suggest you to revise each time before you click that "submit reply" button. That'll earn you a few points before you get analyzed.
-Peter-

[Sugar&Spice]

Done, what's for you to talk about? You are filtered out by my claim statement. Why do you have to net this foolishness unto yourself by budding in the wrong grounds of a debate?
Whoa!! Sorry for this late reply. I haven't come back to this thread, I didn't have the time. But since I have nothing to do here we go!! Budding in the wrong grounds of debate?! Let me just keep my responses on topic.
I'm by far(and the phrase should be "butting in".) Butting in on the wrong grounds for debate. You said "need I remind" you, "African American artist. Then you said, "let me call them rappers". That is still a general term. Because there are rappers out there that don't rap about drugs, degrading women, and sex. There is Will Smith, who is a very respectable rapper, and highly esteemed by everyone. And he never spoke about drugs, or degraded women of any race. And guess what?! He grew up in Philly, in the hood/ghetto. Nelly may have some curse words in his music. But he never degrades women in his music. And he was brought up in the hood.
So you started the debate on shaky grounds. Because not every rapper who comes out of the hood, raps crap. If you had said, "some of them." Then there would have been no problem.
If you don't know what the hood looks like, you need to take a few vacation days there and learn it before you speak about it. The foundations of a debate are "claim and support and/or warrant". How do you jump into a debate without knowing exacly what my claim means? You do not have a valid standpoint to support your counter to my claim. I will not speak further to you about the hood till you are "down." I, with my family, lived in the hoods for a couple of years till we moved out. We've had a grocery store there, and I've been playing with them and made great friends, too.
Are you serious?! No really, are you?! LOL. Okay. Just because I said I don't know what one looks like, dose not mean that I know nothing about the hood. And I said that to show that I've never lived in the hood. But I know what one looks like, I'm sure everyone dose know what one looks like. And let me tell you, having a store in the hood, and making friends there dose not mean you are "Down." Why would I want to take a vacation there?! I know enough about the hood not to want to live there. let me give you an example;
You see a cup of poision on the table, and you know enough about posion to know that it will kill you. Do you still drink it?! Not if your sane you wont. My point is, people don't have to drink a cup of poison to know that it will kill you. Only someone not wrapped too tight will drink it and say," I'll only know if poison is dangerous, when I take it and start to die because of the sympthoms, and then I'll know to stay away from it."
Once again the point being. I know that the hood is not a good place to live in. So why would I want to go there?! Just to say I'm so-called down?! To try and prove to people that I'm hard?! I don't see the need in it. Not saying that those who do it are wrong. If thats what they want to do, fine with me. But thats not for me. And not to say anything about other people who are of a different race, but being black is hard enough. You deal with preconcieved ideas, and are always thought to be the lowest in anything. So you know what my idea of being "Down" means?! It is dealing with reality, and not hiding behind an image that your are automaticly "down" because of where you come from. I'm from brooklyn NY, and I don't claim to be "down' because of it. Now I'm going to generalise my statement. Anyone of any race who has to deal with life, and has to take serious blows, but deal with them, and are standing on thier own two feet. That is being down. So I'm glad I don't fit your view of being "down." You lecture me about having a solid basis, and say that I don't know what I'm talking about. Well lets just look at your statements and see if they hold up. Already your first one did not.
We all turned out okay, and my best buddies are in college with me right now. We all agreed to my statement, when they read as I typed every single letter into this post. We've grown up together listening to raps as we also come to the realization of this muical emergence. All these raps ever talked about is Women, Money, Drugs, and Bling-blings. Even my friends know all that, and they cannot agree with me more.
I'm sure that you did turn out ok since you are in college. But let me bring this to the fore. You say that you should have a solid groung to stand on in a debate. So let me ask you why you are listening to the music that you were so opposed to in your first post?! You said that you listen to it. But in your earlier post, you said that not liking rap means that you have morals. So where do you stand on this?! I'm confused as to your stance. If rap is so bad, why listen to it. Not only that but you grew up listening to it. That is a long time, to listen to something that you find, degrading and, immoral, and un-educated.
Rappers don't have to be African Americans, can be white, asian, as long as they are "down" with the hood life. However, the main focus of my debate is the African Americans from the hoods, they started this thing. Did anyone of Whites or Asians do this before the African American Hoodlums made this cultural music so popular? NO! So, this further supports my claim that African Americans from the hoods started this "women objectifiying" music. It is an explicit fact.
You are once again wrong. Rap did not get its start from African American "hoodlums". It got its start in the 70s it started with a group called "Rapper Delight" Their rap did not include anything about drugs or objectifiying women. Their rap was respectable, and was the start of a new style, of music. Further along in the rap industry, they had other rappers,LL cool J, who is another one who was brought up in the hood, and his raps do not talk about drugs, or nor dose he degrade women. Rap started to take a turn in the late 80s when the group "NWA" Came into play. The translation of the name is called,"Niggas with attitudes." Straight out of Compton. And they introduced a new rebellious twist to the rap game, when before rap was positive. NWA attacked the police with their lyrics, and they spoke of drugs as if it was the thing to do. That is why there is a distinction from, RAP, GANGSTA RAP, AND R&B. Why do you think they have these different names?! For their health?! No!! Because there is a difference in the message that is convade. I think that you really need to dig into the history of rap, where it originated, and the difference between them. Before you go making claims as to what you know and don't know. It sounds like you grew up listening to gangsta rap. Not rap.
Now the whole,"Down with the hood life." Why is it that they can rap if they are down with the hood life?! And I have found that alot of the so-called people who are down with the hood life, are impostures. I have found that because of the negitive twist that people have in their music today. People want to act as if they are down, just to make money.
50cent, did not really get shot. He wants everyone to believe he did. And some do, but he did not. But he wants his records to sell. That is dumb. It is the kind of mentality that people choose to accept, that makes them want to feel as if they are so hard, and "down." It is just ignorant.
Being from the hood dose not mean that a person has to go around saying how hard they are. Because they are not willing to settle
for that lower mentality. It is the person, who chooses to take on that mental attitude. It is not because of where you live, that determines how you think.
Look, it is more ignorant for a person to read a claim statement of a debate and simply filter out certain phrases on a personal level; then have the audacity to counter the claim with a poor debate.
Okay, it was my bad to jump to conclusions. But lets not talk about poor debates.From looking at your paragraph of statements. You cannot tell between Rap, Gangsta rap, And R&B. So what kind of claim can you mak about these subjects, when you have yet to be able to tell them apart?! You classified them all together. How can you make a good debate on that?! Come on now! What dose ,"Barry White, Luther Vandross, Earthwind, and FIre, and other artists that started R&B. And to bring it upto date, "Vivian Gren, Ginuwine, Donell Jones, Mary J blige,etc. Have to do with Gangsta rap. If you lokk up these artists, or know their music. Then you will see that gangsta rap, has nothing to do with R&B. Because these artists are R&B artists. And that is a different class of music, from the kind of rap you are talking about. Also, Will Smith, LL Cool J, Nelly, And even Tupac, had some positive raps,(brendas got a baby, dear momma, kee ya head up, changes) This is rap. 50 Cent, G unit, Eminem, Chamlle(riding dirty)etc. Are examples of Gangsta rap. So before you come on here talking about who has a weak debate, you have to make sure your debate is solid. Because what I have seen, you classed dfferent styles of music together, without knowing which was which, so that is a poor debate.
Princess, from what you put down in this thread, your prestigeous backgrounds earned you nothing but mistakes and futile efforts trying to stand your grounds. IF MY CLAIM STATEMENT TARGETS THE WHOLE AFRICAN AMERICAN RACE AS A WHOLE, THEN YOU WILL WIN. And I know better than making such a sorrowful mistake from my end. I suggest you to revise each time before you click that "submit reply" button. That'll earn you a few points before you get analyzed.
-Peter-
And I suggest you revise as well. And learn to do research on what the difference is between Rap, Gangsta Rap, and R&B, before making a statement about them. So I see that the hoodlife, has failed you too, on this regard. And although I apologise for my pre-mature statements in the earlier post. I do not apologise for not wanting to live in the hood and not be so-called down. So your sarcaism, as to me and my family living a good life, makes no sense. You even called me princess. So you must be worshiping me or you would not make such a statement. I don't think that I'm better then anyone else. So don't trry to make such statements in my regard. I have succeeded in keping on topic. So I hope the response is the same way.

[godfather]

Dear Princess Sugspy,

I did a brief calculation to your responses onto my post. Basically, for every word I typed in, you've responded almost ten-folds. Who in the world has this kinda time to read your pointless posts! Besides, you're still doing what you do best: YOU CAN'T READ A WHOLE COMPLETE SENTENCE!. Why do you read "PART" of a sentence and jump to an assumed conclusion?

I guess I'm right about you, all you do is type in a 10 line paragraph for every sentence other people wrote down, and don't even make a point, might I add. That kills my energy and time to sit here, read your pointless shit, watch your shit grow, and realize at the end of it that you've just said nothing. Scattered thoughts here and there, I'm done wasting time with you. If you like to keep assuming that my comments are racist against you, be it. I feel like a damn kid talking to ya. I'm out. GTFOOH!

[judes]

my god.
ok. everyone needs to take a breather and calm down.

this is getting waaaay out of hand.
so i'm closing this thread (...it seems to be a trend).

when we can all talk about this respectably, then someone can restart this topic if need be.