N.Korean Dictator: Kim Jong Il

[midori]

I've recently watched a documentary on North Korea's Kim Jong Il. From what I understand, his "leadership" parallels those of Adolf Hitler. Even though Kim Jong Il did not target a group of people, what he did do that was similar to Hitler was lie and manipulate. North Korea has by far one of the largest military in the world, especially for a country of that size. In the 1990's, there was a famine among the people, and Kim Jong Il let his people starve. The US tried to help N. Korea by sending food, but it didn't reach the starving people because the dictator kept him for the military instead. What really makes me mad is that they have public shootings, and these shootings are for crimes like speaking out against Kim Jong Il or even just saying Kim Jong Il's name in a negative tone. Also, they had public shootings of innocent people during the 1990's famine to show others what happens if people question or start standing up for themselves. 65 years passed, and we have done nothing from what we've learned from dictators like Hitler.

[scarletwillow]

We've only not done anything because North Korea has no oil. Both tongue-in-cheek and serious.

About all I know about Kim Jong Il is that he likes to import European prostitutes and that he's about to relinquish his throne due to age.

[Zhaohe]

Hopefully, his successor will possess a conscience?
I agree with scarletwillow, I don't believe the US is doing anything because it does not have anything to gain.

I know why my country won't, our army stinks = ='

I find it sad that somewhere, people have to live with these conditions. To have an opinion against a man to be a crime.. truly sad.

[midori]

Isn't the oil thing already getting old? If you're going to attack Bush on the war, at least come up with a valid reason.

For the past few years, the US has been trying to get N. Korea into disarming their nuclear weapons, but N.Korea has been manipulative and lied, and it's hard to tell what they've planned to do.

China, Japan and S. Korea should really do something about it >.> but China is communist too... errrrgh. Y'd know, the idea of communist as a government will never work..

[scarletwillow]

What do you mean, getting old?
How about, it's "true"?

Kim Jong Il is infinitely more of a threat to national security than Saddam ever was. Why haven't we don't jack shit?

It's more than a valid reason.


Anyways, I support North Korea as a nuclear power.
Me? Crazy? No.
I support Korean unification, and quite frankly, if Korea as a whole is gonna go anywhere, they need the nuclear power.

Rogue state my ass. They're only rogues because the world makes them out to be. Maybe if they gave support instead of secluding them, it'd be different.

[midori]

What do you mean, getting old?
How about, it's "true"?

Kim Jong Il is infinitely more of a threat to national security than Saddam ever was. Why haven't we don't jack shit?

It's more than a valid reason.


Anyways, I support North Korea as a nuclear power.
Me? Crazy? No.
I support Korean unification, and quite frankly, if Korea as a whole is gonna go anywhere, they need the nuclear power.

Rogue state my ass. They're only rogues because the world makes them out to be. Maybe if they gave support instead of secluding them, it'd be different.

I meant getting old because it is NOT true. It's the only thing ignorant people can bring up when they want to opinate about the war. You don't know if Kim Jong Il is 'infinitely' more of a threat because if you forgot, Saddam Hussein had ties to the same terrorists group that bombed two builds called the twin towers, pennslyvania and the pentagon on sept. 11. Kim Jon Il did not.

You support North Korea? Do you even know what it's like over there? You can get shot for saying the inappropiate thing. N. Korea having a nuclear weapon is just like giving a gun to a thief. Kim Jong Il is a erractic and mentally ill person, and believe me, that's not who you want to have control over nuclear weapons.

also, n. korea and s. korea unification? how more of an ignorant can you be? South Korea has a democractic-like government, and North Korea is under tyranny of Kim Jong Il. A dictator and democracy coming together? if you believe that's going to happen, you're stupid beyond reason.

and REALITY: North Korea is secluded because Kim Jong Il's government doesn't allow any foreigners nor does it allow any import from other countries, so the N. Koreans dont know anything from outside their country and so forth. it's not because the world wants them to be secluded, its the dictator whos secluding them.

[scarletwillow]

I meant getting old because it is NOT true. It's the only thing ignorant people can bring up when they want to opinate about the war. You don't know if Kim Jong Il is 'infinitely' more of a threat because if you forgot, Saddam Hussein had ties to the same terrorists group that bombed two builds called the twin towers, pennslyvania and the pentagon on sept. 11. Kim Jon Il did not.

You support North Korea? Do you even know what it's like over there? You can get shot for saying the inappropiate thing. N. Korea having a nuclear weapon is just like giving a gun to a thief. Kim Jong Il is a erractic and mentally ill person, and believe me, that's not who you want to have control over nuclear weapons.

also, n. korea and s. korea unification? how more of an ignorant can you be? South Korea has a democractic-like government, and North Korea is under tyranny of Kim Jong Il. A dictator and democracy coming together? if you believe that's going to happen, you're stupid beyond reason.

and REALITY: North Korea is secluded because Kim Jong Il's government doesn't allow any foreigners nor does it allow any import from other countries, so the N. Koreans dont know anything from outside their country and so forth. it's not because the world wants them to be secluded, its the dictator whos secluding them.

You are *clearly* misinformed about the entire situation.

1. Please, prove me wrong.
Tell me how Saddam is linked to 9/11.

2. I support North Korea as a nuclear power, if only as a check.

3. You clearly don't know the opinions of Koreans. For quite a while, South Korean scholars have touted the same ideas I have just expressed to you, even if they are a minority. I guarantee you that South Koreans don't harbor even a tenth of the amount of hate towards their North Korean brothers as even you do. Take that sentence literally and you need to go back to grade school. Oh, and OOOOOOBVIOUSLY I didn't mean reunification at THIS point. It's a gradual process. Duh.

4. Wrong. Reality is that Korea became a battleground not between Koreans but between the USSR and USA during the Cold War. Kim Jong Il's father was then the ruler of North Korea. USA nearly lost the Korean War, but was able to push back. They almost nuked China in the process, no joke about that; just read up on Gen. MacArthur. Americans supported South Korea not because they were a democracy (they were a military dictatorship) but because they weren't communist. In fact, South Korea didn't become a true democracy until the 1988 Olympics, which brought great social reform (and I hope will do the same for China).

Sure, the dictator is bad. People like you insist on examining things as they are, in media res, ignoring what had happened before. You need to ask yourself more, what are the implications? What are the causes? In the case of North Korea, it is simply a case of mislead parenting (the USSR's lack of adequate support) and social distrust (the rest of the world forming trade embargoes).

Since I'm on a bit of a roll, let me tell you a few facts that should interest you.

1. Saddam has no link to Al Qaeda. In fact, the Iraqi state and Al Qaeda are, if anything, mortal enemies. Saddam ran a secular state (something Al Qaeda fights to destroy); in fact, Osama tried to establish connections with Saddam, but Saddam steadfastly REFUSED.

2. Osama Bin Laden used to work on the American side to push back the Russian occupation of Afghanistan (aka, "Russia's Vietnam"). However, when Bush Sr. decided to station troops in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War, Osama turned against the USA; Saudi Arabia is holy soil to the Muslims. As you can see, if anything, America founded Al Qaeda.
EDIT: Elaboration: Al Qaeda was formed to fight the Russians. It was America's stationing in Saudi Arabia that led Bin Laden to steer Al Qaeda towards fighting Americans.

3. If you want to go really far back, blame the Brits. After World War II, the Europeans decided, idiotically, to divide the world up based on their own authority. The Brits drew the lines between Iraq and Iran, forming these two countries which constantly tried to blow each other up.

4. Ongoing scandal: Where are taxpayer's dollars in the Iraqi war going? Millions in wasted money is being given to American contractors who were awarded NO-BID CONTRACTS in Iraq. Among them: Halliburton, VP Dick Cheney's former company.

Come on, Miss.

[laruku]

Saddam's linked cos he's the president of Iraq and to ignorant Americans, as long as you are Muslim you come from Iraq. And really.. it's soooo true that Osama bin Laden does not come from Saudi Arabia.. He's from Iraq. :rolleyes:

edit:
I forgot to comment on the North & South Korea thing.. Hello? Do you really believe they are like this, split up because the like it? After WW2, when the Japanese surrendered, they had to give up Korea (Which was as ONE then). UN took half (South Korea) and the Communists took the other. Then the big Korean War erupted and lasted for 3 years, leaving millions dead on both sides. That was in 1945. That was 60 years ago. Do you think that under 60 years of communist leadership you will NOT turn into a commie? Or that you will embrace democracy (which is rather shitty in itself anyway) like in a night's time?

I believe Korea should come back as one. If not for their economy & strength... To spare a thought for those who have been separated for decades... Let them finally be able to say they are together... as a country as one people.

[scarletwillow]

Saddam's linked cos he's the president of Iraq and to ignorant Americans, as long as you are Muslim you come from Iraq. And really.. it's soooo true that Osama bin Laden does not come from Saudi Arabia.. He's from Iraq. :rolleyes:

edit:
I forgot to comment on the North & South Korea thing.. Hello? Do you really believe they are like this, split up because the like it? After WW2, when the Japanese surrendered, they had to give up Korea (Which was as ONE then). UN took half (South Korea) and the Communists took the other. Then the big Korean War erupted and lasted for 3 years, leaving millions dead on both sides. That was in 1945. That was 60 years ago. Do you think that under 60 years of communist leadership you will NOT turn into a commie? Or that you will embrace democracy (which is rather shitty in itself anyway) like in a night's time?

I believe Korea should come back as one. If not for their economy & strength... To spare a thought for those who have been separated for decades... Let them finally be able to say they are together... as a country as one people.

Indeed, it is sad when a people must be divided to fight each other because of the ideals of men who have never set foot on their soil. It makes me sad, too, when the young people of today don't bother to learn about the world's past and understand why things are the way they are today (not directing this at anyone in particular).

Too many things not taught in school.

[KendoTiger]

Ew, why even consider letting N. Korea keep nukes? That's just stupid -_- If you really want checks, give it to the south ~ the only large power grab will probably be by the PRC ~ in which case, it will be S.K./Japan/Aus/Misc. v PRC/N.K.

You cannot deny that N. Korea has one of the world's WORST human-rights abuse records. If you watch some of the documentaries that had to be snuck out of N. Korea (at risk of the filmers' lives, and the lives of those documented), you would begin to understand.

Honestly, I bet that I could be arrested within one hour in the PRC (for political "terrorism", if I really tried :/

I believe that some reunification should occur between the South and the North ~ they are currently rebuilding an inter-peninsula train line, connecting the two, if I'm not mistaken.

[scarletwillow]

Why I support them keeping nukes?

Because I pity them. Half a century of seclusion leads them to that sort of thing.
It's like beating the shit out of your own child, then your child has access to weapons; psychology says that's its only bargaining chip, its access to attention.

Taking away those nukes does no good; North Korea will be just as bad off, because the rest of the world sees no advantage in fixing it.

And like I said, who's afraid of North Korea? China? Not really. South Korea? Not really. Japan? A little. USA? A lot.

It's funny to me.

[kahel]

I believe Korea should come back as one. If not for their economy & strength... To spare a thought for those who have been separated for decades... Let them finally be able to say they are together... as a country as one people.

yes. I agree with this. I hope the new generation will eventually let this happen. Having the reunification will make them as a stronger and better nation.

And like I said, who's afraid of North Korea? China? Not really. South Korea? Not really. Japan? A little. USA? A lot.

It's funny to me.

I actually find it really funny too. What does N. Korea have besides a couple of speculation of probably Nukes being kept on their camps? Sure they have a strong army. But the people there are starving. They don't have much finances to begin with.

My friends and I were discussing in passing how hollywood skews the minds of people by having this misconceptions of N. Korea, like what they did on one Bond film. We just concluded it with a laugh and figured what would we have expected with hollywood who always exaggerates on history for the benefit of their own. (just a really random thought)

[scarletwillow]

Indeed, the people of this country are lambs that follow their herder off the cliff. Lemming lambs?

As they say, those who are in power have the privelege of writing history. Too many untold or suppressed stories in this world; most of which don't stem from countries like North Korea, but places like this country. The only difference is that in this country, people have the constitutional right to find these things out; but most are just too lazy or ignorant to do so.

[midori]

1. Please, prove me wrong.
Tell me how Saddam is linked to 9/11.

"While skeptics dismiss this encounter, Czech intelligence found Al-Ani's appointment calendar in Iraq's Prague embassy, presumably after Saddam Hussein's defeat. Al-Ani's diary lists an April 8, 2001, meeting with "Hamburg student." Maybe, in a massive coincidence, Al-Ani dined with a young scholar and traversed the nuances of Nietzsche. Or perhaps Al-Ani saw Mohamed Atta and discussed more practical matters."

"Absent surveillance footage of Saddam Hussein driving Mohamed Atta to Portland, Maine's airport en route to American Airlines Flight 11, war critics and Bush bashers refuse to believe that Iraq's deposed dictator might have been involved in 9/11. Still, Baathist files keep offering clues that the carnage of September 11 might not have caught Saddam Hussein totally by surprise."

2. I support North Korea as a nuclear power, if only as a check.

3. You clearly don't know the opinions of Koreans. For quite a while, South Korean scholars have touted the same ideas I have just expressed to you, even if they are a minority. I guarantee you that South Koreans don't harbor even a tenth of the amount of hate towards their North Korean brothers as even you do. Take that sentence literally and you need to go back to grade school. Oh, and OOOOOOBVIOUSLY I didn't mean reunification at THIS point. It's a gradual process. Duh.

Maybe you need to read it again? I never said I harbored any hate towards the North Koreans, just it's dictator. Come on, of course it's impossible to unite at this point, you and I know that, but in the future? Yes, there's a possibility, but not as long as Kim Jong Il's in power.

4. Wrong. Reality is that Korea became a battleground not between Koreans but between the USSR and USA during the Cold War. Kim Jong Il's father was then the ruler of North Korea. USA nearly lost the Korean War, but was able to push back. They almost nuked China in the process, no joke about that; just read up on Gen. MacArthur. Americans supported South Korea not because they were a democracy (they were a military dictatorship) but because they weren't communist. In fact, South Korea didn't become a true democracy until the 1988 Olympics, which brought great social reform (and I hope will do the same for China).

Do you read every word in my entry? I didn't say Korea was a battleground between Koreans, nor did I point out any dispute was over North and South Korea, only the United States and perhaps the rest of the world. It is true that the real problem lied between the USSR and USA, after World War 2, the two countries decided to divide Korea into two parts, each having their favored form of government into North and South Korean. So it's only common sense to say that North Korea headed towards communism, and South Korea towards democracy. And if you didn't know, since N. Korea was basically a pawn for the USSR during that time, General Secretary Kim Il Sung was responsible for the invasion of the south, descrediting the viewpoint that the conflict was caused by South Korea or the United States.

Sure, the dictator is bad. People like you insist on examining things as they are, in media res, ignoring what had happened before. You need to ask yourself more, what are the implications? What are the causes? In the case of North Korea, it is simply a case of mislead parenting (the USSR's lack of adequate support) and social distrust (the rest of the world forming trade embargoes).

Ignoring what happened before? Does the name Hitler mean anything to you? If we let history repeat itself with Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong il, we might as well say we'd never learned anything that happened during World War 1 and 2. There's this saying "the only way for evil to triumpth is for good men to do nothing," we let that happen for some time during world war two, but hopefully people would have learned their lessons right now that dictators such as the two mentioned above has every aspect of what Hitler did.

1. Saddam has no link to Al Qaeda. In fact, the Iraqi state and Al Qaeda are, if anything, mortal enemies. Saddam ran a secular state (something Al Qaeda fights to destroy); in fact, Osama tried to establish connections with Saddam, but Saddam steadfastly REFUSED.

I don't expect you to be updated with the current situation. current evidence showed that there was a tie to Saddam Hussein of the sept 11 attacks. perhaps If you read up on the Baathist files, then you'll know how Saddam Hussein is tied to the attacks.

2. Osama Bin Laden used to work on the American side to push back the Russian occupation of Afghanistan (aka, "Russia's Vietnam"). However, when Bush Sr. decided to station troops in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War, Osama turned against the USA; Saudi Arabia is holy soil to the Muslims. As you can see, if anything, America founded Al Qaeda.
EDIT: Elaboration: Al Qaeda was formed to fight the Russians. It was America's stationing in Saudi Arabia that led Bin Laden to steer Al Qaeda towards fighting Americans.

3. If you want to go really far back, blame the Brits. After World War II, the Europeans decided, idiotically, to divide the world up based on their own authority. The Brits drew the lines between Iraq and Iran, forming these two countries which constantly tried to blow each other up.

You can't say "blame the British" without going into more details. The first of the persian gulf war was the Iran-Iraq war between 1980 and 1988. There has ALWAYS been rivalry between kingdoms of Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Persia, aka Iran. Before the ottoman empire, Iraq was part of Persia under the Aq Quyunlu dynasty. The Ottoman empire stopped rising after Murad IV annexed Iraq from Persia in 1638, and disputes about the border never ended.

4. Ongoing scandal: Where are taxpayer's dollars in the Iraqi war going? Millions in wasted money is being given to American contractors who were awarded NO-BID CONTRACTS in Iraq. Among them: Halliburton, VP Dick Cheney's former company.

I do think that the war has been spending too much of the tax payers' money and there'll be a deficit in the future for social security. And don't tell me that I'm examing things as they are when you're doing the exact same thing. you can tell me all about croyism or whatever, but the fact is the company's contracts in iraq are MUCH LESS profitable than its core energy business.

------------------

your statements

"And like I said, who's afraid of North Korea? China? Not really. South Korea? Not really. Japan? A little. USA? A lot."

You're dead wrong. China, South Korea, and Japan are stands persistantly for the denuclearization as much as the USA. please, do keep up with current events, listening to excerpts, and not fully analyzing the situation arent going to help you prove your points.

"As they say, those who are in power have the privelege of writing history. Too many untold or suppressed stories in this world; most of which don't stem from countries like North Korea, but places like this country. The only difference is that in this country, people have the constitutional right to find these things out; but most are just too lazy or ignorant to do so."

Yes, Americans do take for granted alot of thing. One thing in particular is opening disputing about government. You do this in another country like N. Korea, Iraq, even Malasia, I guarantee you that theres no freedom of speech to protect what you say. even a little statement might get you charged with treason. ALSO, if you didn't know, most of these stories from nations like N. Korea do not get out because they are oppressed people, the government will KILL anyone who even has the notion of questioning them.

Maybe this interview will "lighten" your view on the N. Korea subject.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kim/them/defector.html

Please, do read every word.

[scarletwillow]

Jesus... please, please, PLEASE use the quote function next time. It's incredibly difficult to sift through what some essayist wrote, what I wrote, and what you wrote in that long post.

Anyways...

1. A semi-well known conspiracy theory at best. The so called "Prague Connection" is so loose that not even the Czech government says it's true. Not valid evidence for a connection. Besides, in a time when Bush needs all the evidence he needs, why doesn't he point this out? He can't even name any connections.

4. Did I ever blame the start of the conflict on S Korea or USA? Nope.

What about Hitler? If there's anything to learn from Hitler, it's that you shouldn't create debtor nations and humiliate them to the point that they have to undergo genocide. And if you want to talk about dictators:
http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2005/edition_02-13-2005/featured_0
Go check that out. Why don't we give a damn about anyone else? Like I said, nothing to gain. You wouldn't be giving a damn about North Korea if they didn't have nukes. Nope, you'd let them starve too.


1. I don't subscribe to loosely put together conspiracy theories. Maybe if something really comes out of it, I'll admit fault; but for now, it's a load of bullshit you won't even find in conservative newspapers.

3. Suppose you're right here, though you need to quote all those things you copy-pasted =P

4. That doesn't excuse the corruption of the situation. Period.

--------

About your rebuttal to my statements: you may watch Fox News, but you are horribly oblivious to what anyone outside of the government believes.

As for the interview, the man is dead wrong about economic embargoes.
It's a general rule that an open market will bring about it political freedom. You see it even in China as it happens. Quite simply, an open market cannot exist with an embargo.

[laruku]

Jesus... please, please, PLEASE use the quote function next time. It's incredibly difficult to sift through what some essayist wrote, what I wrote, and what you wrote in that long post.
And if you have no idea where the quote button is, it's at the bottom right hand corner of ther person's post, next to a downwards pointing arrow...

[KendoTiger]

The presence of nukes does not incline us to help the N. Korean people ~ only to dispose of Jung Il. Well, this would be helpful ~ although it would probably lead to a cout de tat (sp?) or a mad rush for power, rather than any kind of revolution on behalf of the people.

Blah ~ random Taegukgi moment when thinking about all the war stuff.

Eh ~ shutup about the quoting ~ it's easier to direct quote for point by point counter. Jeez, if you're that lazy or inconsiderate, then read it when you aren't.

Yeah ~ it's true about the N. Koreans kidnapping people though. Pretty scary stuff. Random legend I remember ~ at the connector, where the two sides meet (long hallway, separated by two doors. Anyways, the S. Korean gaurd was standing by the door, when N. Korean special ops grabbed him, and got him to the N. Korean side before the other S. Korean gaurds could help him. Unable to cause an international conflict, the S. Koreans weren't able to help him. To prevent future gaurds from the same fate of torture, imprisonment, and death - the S. Korean soldiers are now secured with harnesses and rope when they gaurd the door. *shrugs*, not sure if it's true or not.

[scarletwillow]

Shut up about the quoting? Lemme show you something...
I'll make a little key of her entire post.

My words: red.
Her words: blue.
Random internet source: green.

1. Please, prove me wrong.
Tell me how Saddam is linked to 9/11.
"While skeptics dismiss this encounter, Czech intelligence found Al-Ani's appointment calendar in Iraq's Prague embassy, presumably after Saddam Hussein's defeat. Al-Ani's diary lists an April 8, 2001, meeting with "Hamburg student." Maybe, in a massive coincidence, Al-Ani dined with a young scholar and traversed the nuances of Nietzsche. Or perhaps Al-Ani saw Mohamed Atta and discussed more practical matters."
"Absent surveillance footage of Saddam Hussein driving Mohamed Atta to Portland, Maine's airport en route to American Airlines Flight 11, war critics and Bush bashers refuse to believe that Iraq's deposed dictator might have been involved in 9/11. Still, Baathist files keep offering clues that the carnage of September 11 might not have caught Saddam Hussein totally by surprise."
2. I support North Korea as a nuclear power, if only as a check.
3. You clearly don't know the opinions of Koreans. For quite a while, South Korean scholars have touted the same ideas I have just expressed to you, even if they are a minority. I guarantee you that South Koreans don't harbor even a tenth of the amount of hate towards their North Korean brothers as even you do. Take that sentence literally and you need to go back to grade school. Oh, and OOOOOOBVIOUSLY I didn't mean reunification at THIS point. It's a gradual process. Duh.
Maybe you need to read it again? I never said I harbored any hate towards the North Koreans, just it's dictator. Come on, of course it's impossible to unite at this point, you and I know that, but in the future? Yes, there's a possibility, but not as long as Kim Jong Il's in power.

4. Wrong. Reality is that Korea became a battleground not between Koreans but between the USSR and USA during the Cold War. Kim Jong Il's father was then the ruler of North Korea. USA nearly lost the Korean War, but was able to push back. They almost nuked China in the process, no joke about that; just read up on Gen. MacArthur. Americans supported South Korea not because they were a democracy (they were a military dictatorship) but because they weren't communist. In fact, South Korea didn't become a true democracy until the 1988 Olympics, which brought great social reform (and I hope will do the same for China).
Do you read every word in my entry? I didn't say Korea was a battleground between Koreans, nor did I point out any dispute was over North and South Korea, only the United States and perhaps the rest of the world. It is true that the real problem lied between the USSR and USA, after World War 2, the two countries decided to divide Korea into two parts, each having their favored form of government into North and South Korean. So it's only common sense to say that North Korea headed towards communism, and South Korea towards democracy. And if you didn't know, since N. Korea was basically a pawn for the USSR during that time, General Secretary Kim Il Sung was responsible for the invasion of the south, descrediting the viewpoint that the conflict was caused by South Korea or the United States.
Sure, the dictator is bad. People like you insist on examining things as they are, in media res, ignoring what had happened before. You need to ask yourself more, what are the implications? What are the causes? In the case of North Korea, it is simply a case of mislead parenting (the USSR's lack of adequate support) and social distrust (the rest of the world forming trade embargoes).
Ignoring what happened before? Does the name Hitler mean anything to you? If we let history repeat itself with Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong il, we might as well say we'd never learned anything that happened during World War 1 and 2. There's this saying "the only way for evil to triumpth is for good men to do nothing," we let that happen for some time during world war two, but hopefully people would have learned their lessons right now that dictators such as the two mentioned above has every aspect of what Hitler did.
1. Saddam has no link to Al Qaeda. In fact, the Iraqi state and Al Qaeda are, if anything, mortal enemies. Saddam ran a secular state (something Al Qaeda fights to destroy); in fact, Osama tried to establish connections with Saddam, but Saddam steadfastly REFUSED.
I don't expect you to be updated with the current situation. current evidence showed that there was a tie to Saddam Hussein of the sept 11 attacks. perhaps If you read up on the Baathist files, then you'll know how Saddam Hussein is tied to the attacks.
2. Osama Bin Laden used to work on the American side to push back the Russian occupation of Afghanistan (aka, "Russia's Vietnam"). However, when Bush Sr. decided to station troops in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War, Osama turned against the USA; Saudi Arabia is holy soil to the Muslims. As you can see, if anything, America founded Al Qaeda.
EDIT: Elaboration: Al Qaeda was formed to fight the Russians. It was America's stationing in Saudi Arabia that led Bin Laden to steer Al Qaeda towards fighting Americans.
3. If you want to go really far back, blame the Brits. After World War II, the Europeans decided, idiotically, to divide the world up based on their own authority. The Brits drew the lines between Iraq and Iran, forming these two countries which constantly tried to blow each other up.
You can't say "blame the British" without going into more details. The first of the persian gulf war was the Iran-Iraq war between 1980 and 1988. There has ALWAYS been rivalry between kingdoms of Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Persia, aka Iran. Before the ottoman empire, Iraq was part of Persia under the Aq Quyunlu dynasty. The Ottoman empire stopped rising after Murad IV annexed Iraq from Persia in 1638, and disputes about the border never ended.
4. Ongoing scandal: Where are taxpayer's dollars in the Iraqi war going? Millions in wasted money is being given to American contractors who were awarded NO-BID CONTRACTS in Iraq. Among them: Halliburton, VP Dick Cheney's former company.
I do think that the war has been spending too much of the tax payers' money and there'll be a deficit in the future for social security. And don't tell me that I'm examing things as they are when you're doing the exact same thing. you can tell me all about croyism or whatever, but the fact is the company's contracts in iraq are MUCH LESS profitable than its core energy business.
------------------
your statements
"And like I said, who's afraid of North Korea? China? Not really. South Korea? Not really. Japan? A little. USA? A lot."
You're dead wrong. China, South Korea, and Japan are stands persistantly for the denuclearization as much as the USA. please, do keep up with current events, listening to excerpts, and not fully analyzing the situation arent going to help you prove your points.
"As they say, those who are in power have the privelege of writing history. Too many untold or suppressed stories in this world; most of which don't stem from countries like North Korea, but places like this country. The only difference is that in this country, people have the constitutional right to find these things out; but most are just too lazy or ignorant to do so."
Yes, Americans do take for granted alot of thing. One thing in particular is opening disputing about government. You do this in another country like N. Korea, Iraq, even Malasia, I guarantee you that theres no freedom of speech to protect what you say. even a little statement might get you charged with treason. ALSO, if you didn't know, most of these stories from nations like N. Korea do not get out because they are oppressed people, the government will KILL anyone who even has the notion of questioning them.
Maybe this interview will "lighten" your view on the N. Korea subject.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../defector.html
Please, do read every word.

It's common sense to quote your sources when making an argument, and it's common forum etiquette to put anything you're not saying in quotes. Period.

[laruku]

Eh ~ shutup about the quoting ~ it's easier to direct quote for point by point counter. Jeez, if you're that lazy or inconsiderate, then read it when you aren't.

FYI, I have done my fair share of debating in this forum. I have quoted from many different people in the same thread, sometimes in different pages. I don't see how difficult it is to do some formatting to your post. It makes things easier for others to read.

So please do some thinking before you speak. Throwing random accusations at people will not make you more credible.

And by the way, who are you to tell anyone to shut up? Their mom? Their dad? I didn't know that such rudeness is a way of life nowadays.

And of course, one final thing, argue with facts and thoughts, not some "random legend"..

[KendoTiger]

All I hear is: "modify your behavior to fit me".

Let's see how beautiful it is when you use your quoting system.


1. Please, prove me wrong.
Tell me how Saddam is linked to 9/11.
"While skeptics dismiss this encounter, Czech intelligence found Al-Ani's appointment calendar in Iraq's Prague embassy, presumably after Saddam Hussein's defeat. Al-Ani's diary lists an April 8, 2001, meeting with "Hamburg student." Maybe, in a massive coincidence, Al-Ani dined with a young scholar and traversed the nuances of Nietzsche. Or perhaps Al-Ani saw Mohamed Atta and discussed more practical matters."
"Absent surveillance footage of Saddam Hussein driving Mohamed Atta to Portland, Maine's airport en route to American Airlines Flight 11, war critics and Bush bashers refuse to believe that Iraq's deposed dictator might have been involved in 9/11. Still, Baathist files keep offering clues that the carnage of September 11 might not have caught Saddam Hussein totally by surprise."
2. I support North Korea as a nuclear power, if only as a check.
3. You clearly don't know the opinions of Koreans. For quite a while, South Korean scholars have touted the same ideas I have just expressed to you, even if they are a minority. I guarantee you that South Koreans don't harbor even a tenth of the amount of hate towards their North Korean brothers as even you do. Take that sentence literally and you need to go back to grade school. Oh, and OOOOOOBVIOUSLY I didn't mean reunification at THIS point. It's a gradual process. Duh.
Maybe you need to read it again? I never said I harbored any hate towards the North Koreans, just it's dictator. Come on, of course it's impossible to unite at this point, you and I know that, but in the future? Yes, there's a possibility, but not as long as Kim Jong Il's in power.

4. Wrong. Reality is that Korea became a battleground not between Koreans but between the USSR and USA during the Cold War. Kim Jong Il's father was then the ruler of North Korea. USA nearly lost the Korean War, but was able to push back. They almost nuked China in the process, no joke about that; just read up on Gen. MacArthur. Americans supported South Korea not because they were a democracy (they were a military dictatorship) but because they weren't communist. In fact, South Korea didn't become a true democracy until the 1988 Olympics, which brought great social reform (and I hope will do the same for China).
Do you read every word in my entry? I didn't say Korea was a battleground between Koreans, nor did I point out any dispute was over North and South Korea, only the United States and perhaps the rest of the world. It is true that the real problem lied between the USSR and USA, after World War 2, the two countries decided to divide Korea into two parts, each having their favored form of government into North and South Korean. So it's only common sense to say that North Korea headed towards communism, and South Korea towards democracy. And if you didn't know, since N. Korea was basically a pawn for the USSR during that time, General Secretary Kim Il Sung was responsible for the invasion of the south, descrediting the viewpoint that the conflict was caused by South Korea or the United States.
Sure, the dictator is bad. People like you insist on examining things as they are, in media res, ignoring what had happened before. You need to ask yourself more, what are the implications? What are the causes? In the case of North Korea, it is simply a case of mislead parenting (the USSR's lack of adequate support) and social distrust (the rest of the world forming trade embargoes).
Ignoring what happened before? Does the name Hitler mean anything to you? If we let history repeat itself with Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong il, we might as well say we'd never learned anything that happened during World War 1 and 2. There's this saying "the only way for evil to triumpth is for good men to do nothing," we let that happen for some time during world war two, but hopefully people would have learned their lessons right now that dictators such as the two mentioned above has every aspect of what Hitler did.
1. Saddam has no link to Al Qaeda. In fact, the Iraqi state and Al Qaeda are, if anything, mortal enemies. Saddam ran a secular state (something Al Qaeda fights to destroy); in fact, Osama tried to establish connections with Saddam, but Saddam steadfastly REFUSED.
I don't expect you to be updated with the current situation. current evidence showed that there was a tie to Saddam Hussein of the sept 11 attacks. perhaps If you read up on the Baathist files, then you'll know how Saddam Hussein is tied to the attacks.
2. Osama Bin Laden used to work on the American side to push back the Russian occupation of Afghanistan (aka, "Russia's Vietnam"). However, when Bush Sr. decided to station troops in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War, Osama turned against the USA; Saudi Arabia is holy soil to the Muslims. As you can see, if anything, America founded Al Qaeda.
EDIT: Elaboration: Al Qaeda was formed to fight the Russians. It was America's stationing in Saudi Arabia that led Bin Laden to steer Al Qaeda towards fighting Americans.
3. If you want to go really far back, blame the Brits. After World War II, the Europeans decided, idiotically, to divide the world up based on their own authority. The Brits drew the lines between Iraq and Iran, forming these two countries which constantly tried to blow each other up.
You can't say "blame the British" without going into more details. The first of the persian gulf war was the Iran-Iraq war between 1980 and 1988. There has ALWAYS been rivalry between kingdoms of Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Persia, aka Iran. Before the ottoman empire, Iraq was part of Persia under the Aq Quyunlu dynasty. The Ottoman empire stopped rising after Murad IV annexed Iraq from Persia in 1638, and disputes about the border never ended.
4. Ongoing scandal: Where are taxpayer's dollars in the Iraqi war going? Millions in wasted money is being given to American contractors who were awarded NO-BID CONTRACTS in Iraq. Among them: Halliburton, VP Dick Cheney's former company.
I do think that the war has been spending too much of the tax payers' money and there'll be a deficit in the future for social security. And don't tell me that I'm examing things as they are when you're doing the exact same thing. you can tell me all about croyism or whatever, but the fact is the company's contracts in iraq are MUCH LESS profitable than its core energy business.
------------------
your statements
"And like I said, who's afraid of North Korea? China? Not really. South Korea? Not really. Japan? A little. USA? A lot."
You're dead wrong. China, South Korea, and Japan are stands persistantly for the denuclearization as much as the USA. please, do keep up with current events, listening to excerpts, and not fully analyzing the situation arent going to help you prove your points.
"As they say, those who are in power have the privelege of writing history. Too many untold or suppressed stories in this world; most of which don't stem from countries like North Korea, but places like this country. The only difference is that in this country, people have the constitutional right to find these things out; but most are just too lazy or ignorant to do so."
Yes, Americans do take for granted alot of thing. One thing in particular is opening disputing about government. You do this in another country like N. Korea, Iraq, even Malasia, I guarantee you that theres no freedom of speech to protect what you say. even a little statement might get you charged with treason. ALSO, if you didn't know, most of these stories from nations like N. Korea do not get out because they are oppressed people, the government will KILL anyone who even has the notion of questioning them.
Maybe this interview will "lighten" your view on the N. Korea subject.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../defector.html
Please, do read every word.
It's common sense to quote your sources when making an argument, and it's common forum etiquette to put anything you're not saying in quotes. Period.[/QUOTE]

30 characters x 9 = 270 characters

assuming the average word is six letters long, that leaves 270/6 = 45 words. Basically, a minute of my time.

Now, you have to ask yourself. Is a lazy attitude worth my minute of time?

Oh ~ and my original comment wasn't to anyone it general, I just was annoyed that people would actual bring it up. THIS post, on the other hand, is directed towards you.

And I was including it as an afterthought ~ I stated my real thoughts above that:
The presence of nukes does not incline us to help the N. Korean people ~ only to dispose of Jung Il. Well, this would be helpful ~ although it would probably lead to a cout de tat (sp?) or a mad rush for power, rather than any kind of revolution on behalf of the people.