Taiwanese And Chinese People

[seiya]

hi is there anyone from taiwan here?
i have a friend in my college and she is taiwanese
when we were chat , i dont know why im saying to her taiwanese people also chinese
but she said no chinese people and taiwanese is different
i told her taiwanese people came from china , thats what i read in history and she said history is bullshit
she said we are different from chinese , the language different and she said taiwan language has mix between chinese, and japanese , and i forgot what the other language
anyone can tell me about taiwan?
thanks

[~sugarcookie~]

sorry i can't answer your question properly...i personally still consider taiwanese to be chinese. in truth, that is what they are. there's no denying the fact that they originally came from china.

and also, this thread doesn't belong in the jay question & requests forum...it should go in either small talk or social lounge.

[Seiichi]

introduce me to your taiwanese female friend and i will tell you....

some taiwanese nationalist are like that...true taiwanese originated from taiwan(the whole freaking family tree are traced back in taiwan...probably got some japanese in them too), where like me, my grandparent came to the taiwan from china after the commuist party take over(like 50 years ago) but i was born and raised in taiwan....i guess the more p.c. term are chinese-taiwanese...its pretty gay if you ask me taiwanese vs. chinese...

[okay]

From what I've read about Taiwan's history, the region now known as Taiwan was originally inhabited by aboriginals (native americans). Chinese ppl from China migrated to Taiwan to escape the communist system OR to make a living for their families in China. Many of these ppl eventually wed and had families with the aboriginals. Thus, the data I read was implying that Taiwanese ppl actually have some aboriginal blood in them. which i find believable, because it explains why really observant ppl can tell the physical diffs between Taiwanese and Chinese ppl.

With regards to the dialect, I haven't read up on that stuff, so I don't know how it came about!

Wow, this is educational AND fun!!! More input ppl! We gotta share the knowledge we have!

[Jo]

not native americans

they're asians, from Mongolian region i would guess

but from what i remember, they were Asians for sure

just look at what we call "Shan Di Ren" (native-Taiwanese people), they are distinctly asian, and most with sharp asian features and dark, yellow skin

[cystaltears]

wwoah..u've got a pretty gay friend there...what does she mean by different lanuage?! we speak the same thing..mandrain...go borrow some books for her man...sry im really agasint ppl who are like that...

[~sugarcookie~]

it's basically the same language, but they've got some terms that aren't the same as mainland mandarin.

[Jo]

sorry i neglected the basis of the question

yer its pretty gay, most of the famous Taiwanese people aren't really Taiwanese

its kind of like that whole "ABC" and "fag" thing here in the US

older Taiwanese citizens make fun of newer, what they call "Wai Sheng Ren", or basically foreign Taiwanese...the only difference is that the people who call themselves true "Taiwanese" migrated to Taiwan before the communist takeover, and those who went after the takeover are labeled foreign

funny, because over 70% of the government in Taiwan is runned by the "foreign" Taiwanese people

to me, we're just Taiwanese, we were born there and raised in Taiwan, there is no difference who came first or who came later...but in the end, we're all Chinese, we eat the same kind of food, talk in similar languages, and all have Chinese blood running throughout or bodies.

[~sugarcookie~]

well said! i think that pretty much sums up how i feel about this particular issue.

[fireman2a]

Heh, I interpreted the question differently. . . something more along the lines of the distinction between Communist China vs. Nationalist Taiwanese. . . . nothing to do with the native Taiwanese. . . :rock:

[louisa.huang_L]

well yea ummm Taiwan's original language wasnt manderin, it was actually 'me nan eui' which is the one spoken a little in jays song the one called 'dad im home' and the reason why some taiwanese people dislike being called the same as chinese- china (no offence just explaining) is becuase china tried to take over taiwan again even though taiwan has become a solo island finally and yea china and taiwan used to e the same place but *shrugs* some people just dont like being called from china i guess...oh and the other thing, wasnt there that thing when sars was arpund the research team that had included china wouldnt let tai3wan join?! and america was with taiwan and wanted taiwan to jopin the research group for the sars situation!! see?? seiya ask your friend if its that reason? but other than that its not really a fact that taiwan is a total single country becuase in the addresses you still have to add in the R.O.C which is 'republic of china'... but yea taiwan gets bullied and i guess the people wanyt to have it free you know their own space own language and type and all

[GuArDiAn AnGeL]

im taiwanese..but i don't stay in taiwan nemore...i still go back tho...and i consider myself chinese..cuz of the history part...but sometimes when u compare taiwanese and chinese..there is quite a difference....not just the language sometimes...but...like slangs.....food....the way they act..and dress....i don't know how to explain....im studying in china right now....and i see chinese pple all the time..and they just don't make me feel like home......when i go back to taiwan...it makes me feel like home.....its kinda hard to explain...but somewhat...we are related

[Seiichi]

yup..i am a "Wai Sheng Ren"...so what! who cares!
well...when i was growing up in taiwan, the elementary school push that every one speaks mandarian and not taiwanese, now days, they said the true taiwanese culture is existing and now they are pushing ppl to speak taiwanese...its pretty funny actually...manadrian, taiwanese, cantonese, hakken, etc are just different dialect of chinese...its not big deal....like me, i dont speak taiwanese(tai-yue), but i can understand a bit...

[Viv]

i still think taiwanese is part of chinese becuz we both speak mandarin except that taiwanese have there own language...it's kind of like montreal is still part of canada except they have a diff. language there too...so thats how i take it... :wink2:

[louisa.huang_L]

china people speak manderin with a big ER accent!! china chinese and taiwanese chinese is different, but 'chinese' is just the overall thing. were all speak chinese but we/i am taiwanese and they/others are china-ese get?

[jakinni]

In case it's not obvious, Taiwan is not the only place with their own dialect, so does Hong Kong, so does practically every place in China, but that doesn't make them any less Chinese. So everyone from different regions have slightly different way or pronouncing Mandarin. Why is it so important for many Taiwanese people to differentiate themselves from other Chinese people? I don't see the point in differentiating oneself as being Taiwanese Chinese compared to any other Chinese. Sometimes I feel it's really an elitist attitude of looking down on people from China as compared to Taiwan. Maybe it's a Western influence? That's really sad. We all should be proud of our heritages. Chinese is chinese no matter which way you cut it.

[JianDan[Ai]]

wwoah..u've got a pretty gay friend there...what does she mean by different lanuage?! we speak the same thing..mandrain...go borrow some books for her man...sry im really agasint ppl who are like that...

not completely true..there is a taiwanese dialect..although the writing is the same

yea this is a very contraversial issue on weather ppl from tw r called "chinese" or "taiwanese" (although most ppl in tw have their root all in china) taiwan was under japanese rule for some time which changed its culture a lot and recently taiwan has been trying to follow the US in its government and other things. For the most part, with a very liberal president, taiwan is shifting towards a more "independent" state. This is kinda hard to describe. Taiwan claims to be free, and many extreme liberals do not want to be related with china basically and call themselves "taiwanese" not "chinese." China however claims taiwan to be a rebelling province basically...and there are people in taiwan who dont think there needs to be such distinction between chinese and taiwanese

i personally consider myself a chinese from taiwan, and think that taiwan and china should be one..but by no means under the control of the current chinese, or taiwanese governments, cuz i think both r jus fucked up a lot...maybe taiwan even more than china...

heh that confusing stuff...i hope i havent gotten anyone pissed off, and i am sincerely sorry if i did

[wackycashew]

yeah, i agree with what jakinni wrote that every place has its own dialect, but our roots all trace back to being chinese. even though what china and taiwan advocate politically may be very different, i still believe that we are all chinese people, no matter where you live. even though the 'official' language is mandarin, there are bound to be accents. that goes for other languages as well. the different dialects reflect the uniqueness of the various provinces in china, taiwan, hong kong, etc. there are chinese people all over the world! but we can all communicate with each other in mandarin. i think that's pretty cool. =) doesn't really matter that we sound differently in accent.

take the spanish language for example. whether you're from spain, venezuela, mexico, etc., your accent's gonna be different. but the hispanic people's love and passion are so evident (from my personal experience). doesn't matter where you're from, if you speak spanish, you will get along just fine. they're proud of their culture and strangers become friends instantly.

as for whether or not the "china chinese" people are looked down upon by other chinese, i'm not so sure. i can see that some chinese in other countries may be more well-off in general than the mainlanders, but that doesn't affect how chinese you are. anyway, it's these kinds of 'prejudices' amongst the chinese people that divide us. some are rich, some are poor, some are westernized, some have a different political stance, etc. there's actually no need for such differences to be accentuated. if chinese is our heritage, there should be no shame. it's tough on the younger generation if things happen in the past are passed down, affecting how young people view 'other types of chinese'. that's just not necessary. in my opinion, you can say i'm chinese from wherever, but not necessarily have to make a name of it. i wouldn't walk around proclaiming i'm hongkongnese or something. =0 i'm chinese and i'm from hong kong. now i'm a chinese in canada. so, i guess you can call me a chinese canadian. but my heritage still chinese. to me, 'taiwanese' is just a language. not a distinct form of chinese people. that'll be just weird... 'chinese people' doesn't automatically equal 'mainland chinese'. it's just a general term. so, i hope people from taiwan won't be offended if they're called chinese.

[babyxv]

i don't DENY that i'm chinese but i call myself taiwanese because my parents are taiwanese and i was born there. i guess some people think that the term chinese is just for people who are from china.

[taiwanguonanhai]

I can't really call myself Taiwanese or Chinese as I am a weird mix(dad is 1/2 taiwanese 1/2 cantonese, mom is 1/2 japanese a1/2 taiwanese)but my mom still considers herself Taiwanese as her mom's and dad's family have been trace back to living in Taiwan for about 100 years and in then there were several aboriginal marriage mix. So I think there can be a real Taiwanese if there is a great enough heritage in Taiwan.

[seiya]

taiwanese language is hakka right??
haha my other friend from south china (who speak cantonese only) just told me
taiwanese people is the same with people from north china , hongkong is the same with south china people
hahaha
but i saw the taiwanese girls are much more pretty than chinese girl
i like chinese accent from china better because i like watching history movie like san guo .
i heard from my friend also taiwanese teenager really like japan , they copy everything from japan
thanks bubyebyebye

[Chun Li]

In case it's not obvious, Taiwan is not the only place with their own dialect, so does Hong Kong, so does practically every place in China, but that doesn't make them any less Chinese. So everyone from different regions have slightly different way or pronouncing Mandarin. Why is it so important for many Taiwanese people to differentiate themselves from other Chinese people? I don't see the point in differentiating oneself as being Taiwanese Chinese compared to any other Chinese. Sometimes I feel it's really an elitist attitude of looking down on people from China as compared to Taiwan. Maybe it's a Western influence? That's really sad. We all should be proud of our heritages. Chinese is chinese no matter which way you cut it.

It IS an elitist attitude. It's just like the Shanghainese looking down at the rest of the mainland Chinese, or the HKers thinking they're "better." It's all politics.

If China was the more economically superior country (which they have high potential to be) would Taiwan still want so badly to be seen as seperate island country? Heh. People always look down on others when they're doing better. But what goes around comes around, and if someday in the future Taiwan's economy goes through the tubes, they'll run to China with their tail between their legs looking for investment. Other than China, what other country would give a shit? The smarter Taiwanese have already realized this and dump all their savings and investments in China. Overseas Chinese (especially Taiwanese) are one of the biggest funding groups of the current economic developments in China. Only the idiots in Taiwan are sitting on their political thrones claiming their independence. Moreover, they've tried to brainwash the populace into thinking that it's an entire "race" issue and that they're really not Chinese. Whatever. When the money flows from China in the future, I predict a big change in attitude.

As for the "real" Taiwanese dialect... the Hakka dialect came from Fujian. Fujian is a province in China. End of story.

[hisashi]

Er..wld Jo be a better person to say this? Anyways, Hakka is not Taiwanese..it's just another dialect like Taiwanese or Min3 Nan2 Yu3 or Hokkien from Fujian province. Where it comes from I dunno. Taiwan's main dialect is Min Nan and I think 2nd most popular is Hakka aka Ke4 Jia1. It sounds different from Min Nan. :wink2:
Overseas-born chinese looking down on china ppl. Different culture in each country/state. Though I am not Taiwanese but I can't stand ppl from China bcoz of their behaviour (excuse me for that). I have china blood in my body (my grandfather is a China-born Chinese) but that doesn't change my attitude towards China and its pple.

[tomiko]

i'm chinese, and i've always pretty much believed that taiwanese are chinese. but then again that only applies to those in taiwan whose families migrated there from china. i would consider the aboriginals distinctly taiwanese.
i don't think your friend can really use the language difference as an excuse. taiwanese people speak mandarin more often than they speak their own taiwanese dialect from my knowledge. correct me if i'm wrong, though. chinese people in china itself speak a number of different dialects, some that sound nothing like others. for example, teo chow sounds nothing like mandarin. but people from teo chow are still chinese.
my taiwanese friends also consider themselves chinese, or sometimes label themselves as taiwanese-chinese.

[Chun Li]

Okay, I made a mistake. "Taiwanese" = Min Nan Yu, or the dialect from FuJian Province in China. Hakka people are also from China, aren't they? Though I'm not sure if they're also from FuJian.

Half my family in Taiwan speak Min Nan Yu and some others are Hakka people. Sometimes even they don't get along.

[jakinni]

Though I am not Taiwanese but I can't stand ppl from China bcoz of their behaviour (excuse me for that). I have china blood in my body (my grandfather is a China-born Chinese) but that doesn't change my attitude towards China and its pple.

Wow, China, having 1/5 of the world's population, that's a lot of hating. Nice. It's like black people saying they hate people from Africa. :glug:


It IS an elitist attitude. It's just like the Shanghainese looking down at the rest of the mainland Chinese, or the HKers thinking they're "better." It's all politics.

If China was the more economically superior country (which they have high potential to be) would Taiwan still want so badly to be seen as seperate island country? Heh. People always look down on others when they're doing better. But what goes around comes around, and if someday in the future Taiwan's economy goes through the tubes, they'll run to China with their tail between their legs looking for investment. Other than China, what other country would give a shit? The smarter Taiwanese have already realized this and dump all their savings and investments in China. Overseas Chinese (especially Taiwanese) are one of the biggest funding groups of the current economic developments in China. Only the idiots in Taiwan are sitting on their political thrones claiming their independence. Moreover, they've tried to brainwash the populace into thinking that it's an entire "race" issue and that they're really not Chinese. Whatever. When the money flows from China in the future, I predict a big change in attitude.


That's so true. With annual economic growths of 10%, it won't be long before China becomes a major power and then we'll see the shift in opinions. However, the propaganda is also fuelled by the Americans who keep showing “sympathy” with the separatists although not explicitly, but by support through trade/economics and military funding, as well as support for Taiwan’s entry into some international organizations. It just makes China more antsy and hence more tension on both sides. Why can’t we all just be happy being Chinese and be proud of the rich history.

[Akura]

People who used to live in China and moved to Taiwan because of the comunist stuff are called "Haka" I am taiwanese and Taiwan people are a lot different then people from china. We act different and are a lot meanier in my opinion. Taiwan people are very "diao" :laughing:

Thats what i think.

[Chun Li]

It's like black people saying they hate people from Africa. :glug:


Now ain't that the truth? Or like Californians looking down on the rest of the Americans cause they don't live or are from California. Btw, I don't think Hisashi meant that she doesn't like everyone, probably just the ones who match the stereotype.


It IS an elitist attitude. It's just like the Shanghainese looking down at the rest of the mainland Chinese, or the HKers thinking they're "better." It's all politics.

If China was the more economically superior country (which they have high potential to be) would Taiwan still want so badly to be seen as seperate island country? Heh. People always look down on others when they're doing better. But what goes around comes around, and if someday in the future Taiwan's economy goes through the tubes, they'll run to China with their tail between their legs looking for investment. Other than China, what other country would give a shit? The smarter Taiwanese have already realized this and dump all their savings and investments in China. Overseas Chinese (especially Taiwanese) are one of the biggest funding groups of the current economic developments in China. Only the idiots in Taiwan are sitting on their political thrones claiming their independence. Moreover, they've tried to brainwash the populace into thinking that it's an entire "race" issue and that they're really not Chinese. Whatever. When the money flows from China in the future, I predict a big change in attitude.


That's so true. With annual economic growths of 10%, it won't be long before China becomes a major power and then we'll see the shift in opinions. However, the propaganda is also fuelled by the Americans who keep showing “sympathy” with the separatists although not explicitly, but by support through trade/economics and military funding, as well as support for Taiwan’s entry into some international organizations. It just makes China more antsy and hence more tension on both sides. Why can’t we all just be happy being Chinese and be proud of the rich history.

Americans show their sympathy with the separatists because ultimately a "democratic" economy will be beneficial to the U.S. There is no other reason why they would support Taiwan to be an independent country. Countries and Governments don't support other nations out of goodwill - it's about what will benefit them in the future.

[hisashi]

Half my family in Taiwan speak Min Nan Yu and some others are Hakka people. Sometimes even they don't get along.

During my mom's era, ppl in different dialect grps weren't supposed to marry each other.. :glug: isn't that strange? Ppl from the same race, same country doesn't get along well..

reminds me of the ancient China where kings in different states fought for the empire..

Btw, I don't think Hisashi meant that she doesn't like everyone, probably just the ones who match the stereotype.

Yeah. Young ppl snatching seats in trains.. :dry:

[Chun Li]

How about the ones that spit everywhere? Ew.

[Jo]

its funny

because i thought China is already a world power

[Chun Li]

They are. In Man Power!

[Jo]

yer me n my friends were talking about this kind of issue

and i must say i bow to a dear friend of mine...for she said something very true

if everyone in China someday decided to spit on Taiwan, it'd probably flood the whole island

[hisashi]

Haha, how abt S'pore?? :oops: Ppl in S'pore will get drowned..

world power? half of the population are still in the agriculture industry isn't it? Haha, the other day I saw the news that one China boy was interviewed on how he made a living by catching some pests? (dunno what is that)..and he said he doesn't need his parents to give him money to spend..just catching bugs/pests has earned him a motorbike..

anyways, it's their culture to spit everywhere. Yucks. Do they always have something to spit?
I think the SARS incident has made China a more cleaner place..i hope so..

[Chun Li]

Yeah, it's part of the culture to spit, just like how it's part of the culture to spit chicken bones on the ground... anywhere. We can't really do anything about that, as it's PART of culture. However, since it transmits diseases, it would be more logical for them to try and prevent people from doing it so much. Unlike other holidays or other stuff, spitting is not that hard to stop... if they wanted to stop.

[cherily]

i dunno..but i thought taiwanese originated from china too..dun almost every chinese person come from china..or at least their ancestors do..

[Chun Li]

i dunno..but i thought taiwanese originated from china too..dun almost every chinese person come from china..or at least their ancestors do..

Thanks

[Gatz]

Hehe, Zhang Hui Mei is an Aboriginal.
I didn't study Asian history, but my parents told me somethings.

My mom's side came before the communism saga in China.
I'm not to sure about the past of my father's side.

The attitude of the people in both nations are in fact very very different.
I know FOBs mainlanders in my school, I've been to their house, I know their general attitude in this business.

They think of Taiwan as a province that wants to seperate.
But Taiwan clearly is it's own Nation. The Republic of China.

Whilst China claims to be the People's republic. I'm not sure but I think it's because eventhough they are Communist, they have certain republic parties... don't know to much.

The point is, your friend is wrong to bash on China.

Sure we have a little bit of Japanese culture because Taiwan was colonised by Japan, sometime before WWII I dunno when. And sure we have a dialect. Our way of life is different and life standards are different. But that's just like saying our grandfather's different from us. Can't hate on them...

[princesskitsune]

ok, i think this is right based on history. ok from history most taiwanese people are chinese (Han). ok first before the mongolian ppls come past the wall of china.ppls. were already moving south to taiwan and hanan and stuff. ok when the mongolians got most of north china under thier rule more ppls.move to taiwan. then later on in the chinese civil war (republic v.s. comm.) more ppls. move to taiwan. so most ppls. from taiwan are chinese. the only difference is the name of country and gov. really ppls, listen if the mongolians got in to vietnam i be chinese too, yo.

hey if i wrong don't hate.

[freebird_brown]

something about chiang kaishek or someone like that who got overthrown by the communists and so they sought refuge at taiwan. i think that's right. but sure, taiwanese people originated from china but now that they are their own country, lots have changed and so the culture is pretty different now. just like hk and pretty much the rest of china. so it would be weird to put china and tw back together

[Chun Li]

So you're saying that it would be weird for Hawaii and the rest of the US to be a state? Culture in California is different from culture in Texas, which is different from culture in New York. So it's would be weird for us to be a part of the same country then?

[Gatz]

Actually, Taiwan and China is not like California and Texas, it's more like America, England and Australia. Even when I talk to southern Chinamen and Taiwanese, who have the same accent, I can tell right away the difference. But I never bash on China, it's different, not better or worst.

[Chun Li]

My point was that the culture is not different enough for it justify the reasons why Taiwan and China should not be unified.

[hisashi]

hm..I think Taiwan is "strong" enough to become a country itself. They do not need China's help to improve their economy if that's the reason why China wants back Taiwan badly.

[Chun Li]

China probably wants Taiwan because they're more modernized, have/HAD a good economy, etc. Taiwan most likely doesn't want to go back because they're afraid everything will be stymied by the authoritarian communists in China. Another reason is probably because many parts of China is still considered third world. Why would a "modernized" country want to be part of something underdeveloped? Personally, I don't think China will stay that way forever and I feel that if their economy booms and their development catches up (read: SHANGHAI) Taiwan will kiss some ass. (Like the Taiwanese companies already do in Shanghai).

[nelio2k]

Being an immigrant from Taiwan to the U.S., I feel that Taiwan and China DO have many differences.
I'm an American citizen, because I was born in florida. But I moved back to Taiwan when i was 2 years old and lived there until I was 13, and then I came here. To tell you the truth, prejudices is everywhere, even between China Chinese and Taiwan Chinese people. It's pretty sad to think about it, but it also makes sense if you look at it from another point of view.

A little bit of Taiwan History is that the "guo meen dan" were kicked out of China because the communist party took over China, which happened during the transition of the Ching (If i remember) dynasty, which was the last dynasty of China. The nationalist fled to Taiwan, and established their own government with Jian Kai Shek being the president. (or the Taiwanese people call him jian zon zun). So basically, the "Taiwanese" (because they are kicked OUT of CHina and call themselves taiwanese while overrunning the native Taiwanese people) set up their own government and start from scratch.

They soon became a japanese territory during world war II, in which case they fought back the japanese people and then secured their continent and formed the Taiwan, Replubic of China (ROC). Once that was set, the country blooms and the economy rose. The whole nation's economy improvment and national renown soon becomes a proud thing for the "taiwanese" people. Therefore, they have this attitude and sometime even scorn against the mainland.

It's true that they CAME from China, but in a sense they reassigned their root in Taiwan, or Formosa. They created their own version of the democratic government, in contrast to the communist China. (But nowadays it's very corrupted, which worries me).

As I hate to discriminate people, I can't help but notice that discrimination still exists, between races AND between one, big, Chinese culture.

:?

[Jo]

this is why China isn't the world power, and United States is

no matter how ignorant Americans may be of other people, they stand united, generally speaking

Chinese people are selfish...if we stood together ever since the beginning...China would be the top world power right now...but instead of doing that...everyone has to steal credit for everything, everyone has to be in the spotlight

seriously...when does that stop?

[nelio2k]

That is very true... my parents and relatives have always told me that Koreans and Japanese people in general stick together through tough times, while Chinese people do not work as well together...

But you know what? China, since opening up the international policy, has a great potential to hit it once again in the world market. And this time the result is going to be gigantic.

[V*Taiwan_MeiMei*V]

taiwanese r ethnically chinese. taiwanese r taiwanese because of their nationality.

i think chinese ppl r like the only ethnicity who pick on other chinese. i agree... chinese really don't work well together :dry:

[~sugarcookie~]

i think chinese ppl r like the only ethnicity who pick on other chinese. i agree... chinese really don't work well together :dry:

i agree. we're always so busy fighting each other, i seriously don't see why we wouldn't just team up and pick on other people besides ourselves for once :bleh:. but seriously, it's a shameful fact

[Vant]

Many races pick on themselves... Even Americans like to argue about themselves... Like west vs east for example... Very different... But not always peaceful ;p

Taiwan's desire for independance is breaking their connection with China obviously... And most of the hate comes from Taiwan's bitterness to China...

[mtr0n]

my personal opinion is that Taiwan is its own country. i come from a taiwanese heritage. and it is true that many years ago we were chinese. But it is the same thing with americans. They all came from ireland, britain, germany and so on. So if you can call someone an American, then Taiwanese people should be able to be differentiated with Chinese too. They do have their own land, president, flag, and language. So my opinion is that Taiwan is not China, just like how America is not Britain.

[msluckygurli]

chinese... taiwanese... we're all oriental, arent we?? :)

[jjfgirl]

I consider myself TAIWANESE. My family was yes, originally from China at one time. It is true that unless you're "indian" or now what they call "original inhabitant"...you are not "taiwanese taiwanese". However, I believe that ethnicity and nationality are different. My ancestors were from China. But I am Taiwanese by nationality. I have no relatives in China...so when I go "home", it's to Taiwan. And I love everything about it. Like someone mentioned, Taiwan is pretty mixed. It was occupied by Japan for 50 years...my grandpa learned japanese in school. This is why Taiwan is different from China. We actually like Japan! Also, Taiwan has been open economically and socially for much longer than China. As a result, the people and culture are much different. Taiwan is very westernized in many ways and even though poverty still exists, the discrepency is not as great as in China. Also, China is COMMUNIST..Taiwan has ruled itself independently. Just completely different. And I think as China becomes more open, Taiwanese people distinguish themselves more. Yea, we speak Chinese (mandarin)..but we have Taiwanese too...and now they teach it in elementary schools like they should! I don't care if anyone calls me "Tai-Du", short for Taiwanese Independents. I hope President Chen gets re-elected because he would never let Taiwan go back to China. But the Nationalists are gaining power because the economy is unfortunately, not so good at the moment. Ok, I'm just babbling now. But I think it's important that people know these things. Taiwan is NOT China.

I have to agree with some comments made earlier, however...about how some Taiwanese ppl "look down" on China because we are more modernized and developed. I won't deny that this is true. Many people do. But in my case, I don't think I'm like that. I practice wushu..that IS China. In fact, my coach gives me more crap about being from Taiwan than I do about him being from China! I also agree that when China becomes a super power (like...undeniably so...) many Taiwanese will want to unify with China. It's true that people are like this. Shallow. And that is why I think that someday Taiwan will unify with China. Because they are too intertwined culturally and especially now, economically. I do have to say though, that people that are dumping their investments in China are not necessariliy making money. A lot of Taiwanese people have lost a lot of money in China because...I'm not going to get into it. Dude. I wrote too much . Sorry guys. I just have a lot to say about this.

[vunsin]

Okay, I made a mistake. "Taiwanese" = Min Nan Yu, or the dialect from FuJian Province in China. Hakka people are also from China, aren't they? Though I'm not sure if they're also from FuJian.

adapted from: http://www.asiawind.com/hakka/

Who are the Hakkas?

The Hakkas are a unique ethnic group of "Han" Chinese originally active around the Yellow River area. They are thought to be one of the earliest "Han" settlers in China. One theory has it that many of the early Hakkas were affiliated with the "royal bloods". The truth may be more complicated than that. It is highly likely that while Hakka may be a stronghold of Han culture, Hakka people also have married other ethnic groups and adopted their cultures during the long migration history of 2000 years. Due to the infusion of other ethnic groups from the northwest, north and northeast, these original settlers gradually migrated south and settled in Jiangxi, Fujian, and Guangdong. They were called Hakka by the locals when they first settled in. This term has been used since by non-Hakka and Hakka people, and in international publications. The spelling "Hakka" is derived from the pronunciation in Hakka dialect ( pronounced as "haagga" in Hakka and "kejia" in Mandarin).

During the last hundred years or so, Hakka people migrated to South East Asia, East Africa, Europe (Holland, United Kingdom, France, Germany..), South America (Brazil, Trinidad...) Canada, US. About 7% of the 1.2 billion Chinese clearly state their Hakka origin or heritage. However, the actual number may be more as many Hakka Han who settled along the path of migration assimilate with the local people. The Hakka identity is gradually lost.

Hakka people are noted for their preservation of certain cultural characteristics that could be traced to pre-Qin period (about 2200 years ago) as expressed in the custom, foods, spoken language, etc.

Hakka people are also known to be very adamant in defending their cultural heritage, which was the reason for their migration to flee from the "northern" influence at that time.

As a late comer to places initially occupied by locals, Hakkas usually had to struggle and survive on the less desirable lands. Thus, Hakka people are well-known for their perseverance even in the most adverse environment.

Among all the Chinese people, Hakkas are among the most conservative in keeping the traditions. Yet, many are willing to take risks and seek new opportunities elsewhere to establish themselves. The migratory tradition results in the distribution of Hakka in the most remote part of the world. An anecdote has it that the north-most restaurant in the world close to the Arctic is in fact a Chinese restaurant run by a Hakka. :)

The Hakka people, paradoxically conservative and endeavoring, hard-working and enduring, is reflective of the spirit of Chinese culture.

I consider myself TAIWANESE. My family was yes, originally from China at one time. It is true that unless you're "indian" or now what they call "original inhabitant"...you are not "taiwanese taiwanese". However, I believe that ethnicity and nationality are different. My ancestors were from China. But I am Taiwanese by ethnicity. I have no relatives in China...so when I go "home", it's to Taiwan.

If your ancestors were from China, technically, you won't be Taiwanese by ethnicity, right? You're right to say that ethnicity and nationality are different. So you should know that your nationality is Taiwanese, but your ethnicity might not necessarily be... I thought ethnicity is used to describe people who share the same origins. This might be interesting:

adapted from: http://www.taiwannation.com.tw/english.htm

The True History of Taiwan

Taiwanese are of Taiwan origin, not Chinese.
More than 10,000 years ago, the ancestors of modern Taiwanese wer


e found in Taiwan which at that time was all mountain, so the Taiwanese ancestors are called mountain people. In the glacial epoch, some of the ancestors were driven south by the cold weather via seabed (it was dry at that time) to the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia.

About 7,000~8,000 years ago, the weather was warm again, the sea was full of water, with ocean currents flowing from South-East Asia to Japan via Taiwan. Some of the ancestors were drifted back to Taiwan, their homeland. Of course, many of them might carry the blood from South-East Asia due to hybrid. These ancestors were called Plain People because the majority of them lived in the plain areas after arriving in Taiwan.

In 1624, the Dutch invaded Taiwan, according to Dutch records, there were about 100,000 Taiwanese surrendered. In 1661, Koxinga took place of the Dutch, about 130,000~200,000 Taiwanese surrendered. Among them, there were 12,727 household units, about 40,000~60,000 Taiwanese were forced to be converted into the Han (the Chinese). These aboriginal were the first ones who were forced to give up their Taiwanese nationalities. In 1683, Ching, the Manchus, replaced Koxinga. In 1730, a report made by a general of Ching that surrendered Taiwanese were at least 600,000.

In 1756, the annual report came out with 660,147 men and women surrendered, they were aboriginal. In 1782 the population that surrendered was up to 912,900 and then 2.54 million in 1893. This 2.54 million was mentioned in the 1993 Chinese White Paper which treated them as Chinese. This was totally wrong, they were of Taiwanese origin. They grew as time went by. Their population was 6 million in 1943, and 21.5 million in 2000, among them, some are the offspring of Dutch or Chinese hybrid.

The pure Chinese came in 1949~1954 period, when Chiang Kai-shek fled to Taiwan with 0.94 million Chinese refugees, among them, only 0.21 million were female. Therefore, even if all female Chinese refugees married with male refugees, they could only create 0.42 million pure Chinese couples producing pure Chinese offspring, the rest 0.52 million had to look for Taiwanese to marry, thus Taiwanese blood occupied more than half the so-called Chinese. The population of Taiwan in 2000 is about 23 million, the pure Chinese are not more than 5%, about 95% of Taiwan’s population today carries aboriginal blood. Some have 100% aboriginal blood, some have 10%, mostly have more than 50%.

The reason why Taiwanese are documented as Chinese.
Since 1624, Taiwan has being ruled by foreign regimes, such as, the Dutch, Koxinga, Ching, Japan, the Republic of China. All of the regimes were trying to convert Taiwanese into their nationals. Ching was successful, so the influence passed down to this day. When Ching occupied Taiwan in 1683, it adopted a policy called “To Convert The Wild Barbarians into The Civilized Barbarians” and then “To Convert The Civilized Barbarians into The Han (the Chinese).” The contents of the policy included discriminative practices such as higher taxes, longer free community services, unfair judicial judgements, for those resisting the conversion. No Taiwanese could live without being converted into Chinese. In 1683, the Ching still documented most Taiwanese as Wild Barbarians; in 1756, the status of the Taiwanese was changed to Civilized Barbarians; in 1777, all became Chinese. These historical records also evidenced the process of the compulsory conversion of Taiwanese into Chinese.

Since 1777, Taiwanese were documented as Chinese throughout the period of the Ching occupation. In 1895 when Japanese came, they tried to convert Taiwanese into Japanese but failed. In 1945, the Republic of China took advantage of the achievements of Ching policy, documented Taiwanese as Chinese with no resistance. So even today, the poor Taiwanese would rather call themselves Chinese instead of aboriginal, since the term "aboriginal" implies wild or civilized barbarians.

[jjfgirl]

I should have made it more clear that the views in my posted are all mine and are not meant to offend anyone. I also shouldn't have said so much because this is a very touchy subject with a lot of people and it was in my own personal bad judgment to do so. I do not mean to offend anyone. :oops: On the other hand, I'm entitled to my own opinion...

and vunsin
it was a typo. i meant nationality. thanks for catching that. good to know that you're so uhh...informed.

on that note, i'm not going to say anymore on the subject.

[vunsin]

im sorry, iread some fo the above post and its soo ridicously ignorant adn incorrect.

I hope you didn't take that to be MY personal opinion. As you can see, I've included the links where I got the info from. I just found those readings to be thought-provoking so I posted them here.

and vunsin
it was a typo. i meant nationality. thanks for catching that. good to know that you're so uhh...informed.

I didn't mean to "prove" to everyone that I was "so uhh...informed." I'm sorry if that was your impression. It was never my intention. I just thought that since we've all been debating based on our personal views (with a lot of feelings included), we should at least read what some "experts" have written and researched on. Not to say that they're always right. I think most researches are biased anyways, depending on who's doing the research and for whom they're being done.

[vunsin]

no vunsin, your info was cool, it was just some of the statements people were making based on pure emotions rather than using any logic and or facts/ reason

That's what I thought too (statements that are too emotional). Things like this are just too controversial and sensitive though. I think everyone has their own biases, and most of the time it's not even their fault. Every country has a slightly (or even greatly) different version of an event which they call history. This is what the government want the people to believe. So I guess there's no way for us to know which is the absolute 100% pure truth. Most Chinese (from China) people I've met think that Taiwan belongs to China. Most Taiwanese people I've met would be really pissed and offended at that statement. It's the same with Tibet. Chinese think that Tibet belongs to China too. Tibetans are saying that China is trying to occupy them. Oh well... So who's right? Who's wrong?

[msluckygurli]

...Like someone mentioned, Taiwan is pretty mixed. It was occupied by Japan for 50 years...my grandpa learned japanese in school. This is why Taiwan is different from China. We actually like Japan!...

Taiwan may actually like Japan. but that doesnt mean everyone in Mainland China dislikes Japan or the Japanese. i mean, i personally love Japan too! but im Chinese... i guess? so if i like Japan, does that mean i am Taiwanese??!

[vunsin]

I'm a moderate? Haha... Maybe. Although I've also been called a cynic or a skeptic. I tend to doubt everything and look at all sides of the argument before deciding on what to believe. And most of the time, in the end, I don't believe in anything. I believe in what I could see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears.

Anyhow, to put my views in different words (for those of you who didn't get the hidden meaning in my previous posts :) ), I don't think there's a right or wrong in this matter. It's all government propaganda. We should, of course, support our country and government, but we should also respect others who do the same with their countries and governments. There's no point arguing about something that even the world's political leaders don't know the answers to. We don't know whose "war" we're fighting, so what's the point? Having different political views doesn't make one a good or bad person, but having blind faith makes one a dangerous person.

[JianDan[Ai]]

...Like someone mentioned, Taiwan is pretty mixed. It was occupied by Japan for 50 years...my grandpa learned japanese in school. This is why Taiwan is different from China. We actually like Japan!...

Taiwan may actually like Japan. but that doesnt mean everyone in Mainland China dislikes Japan or the Japanese. i mean, i personally love Japan too! but im Chinese... i guess? so if i like Japan, does that mean i am Taiwanese??!

wtf...liking japan or not does not make u taiwanese....taiwanese people ...some at least...look up to japanese...like the former president...he spoke japanese whenever he could b/c he thought it made him cool or something -___-;; thats what happens after 50 years of control...in short...taiwan culture is higly affected by japan...for better or for worse...that is debatable...

china doesnt necessary dislike japan...but i know for a fact they dont like them either....let just say...outside of the products they sell...japan isnt the most popular country among other asian countries...

[Jo]

Many races pick on themselves... Even Americans like to argue about themselves... Like west vs east for example... Very different... But not always peaceful ;p

Taiwan's desire for independance is breaking their connection with China obviously... And most of the hate comes from Taiwan's bitterness to China...

i gave you my sources for my argument in your PM to me, please give me some sources that validate this claim, or any others that you have made thus far

Vunsin is right, Taiwanese people ARE of Taiwan descent, from the Formosan natives...its just because the people who escaped from China came to Taiwan that Taiwan became classified as Chinese. to make any arguments or any vague assumptions, Vant, make sure you understand this basic, basic, basic fact: we are Chinese, we meaning those of us who are of Chinese descent. but Taiwan itself is not, and never will be Chinese even if our title is claimed by the brute force of China.

think about it, if you were of a Taiwanese native descent, wouldn't you feel like crap if China tried to make you a part of it without asking permission?

as i have told you in the debate topic, so is my encouragement here. research, research, research. otherwise its just ignorance to me and anyone who actually does know what they are talking about.

[msluckygurli]

tawian= china
china= taiwan
we equal = jay chou fans
done

haHHA^^ true true!! good way to end the whole argument. very niice. :happy:

[SimpleBlackHumor89]

well techinically there is a differnece.. i think that the term "chinese" should be a language. not a ethnic group. because there's ppl that are from china who came to taiwan thousands of years ago.. and they've developed their own culture. den there's the taiwan natives. den the china ppl who have the accent. i think another name should be made fer the ppl who are from china... not to be prejudice or anything. the language is extremly popular...but that's what i think but everyone is the same just different cultures..and i mean everyone... not just asian ppl the world

[scarletwillow]

Chinese is a nationality.
Chinese, as an English colloquial term, has been twisted into an ethnicity and race, which it is not.

My ethnicity is not Chinese, I am a Han, and most of you probably are too, if you're from the mainland or Taiwan.

As for the original subject... eh... to put it quite plainly, Taiwanese people aren't different from Chinese by blood. Wtf? That's just funny. Taiwan was for the most part, without major civilization before the last century or so. Saying that suddenly, within the last 50 years, that Taiwanese have evolved into their own race is absurd and just stupidly ignorant.

Hi, we're all "Chinese" here.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, I think the KMT are traitors to the Chinese people. Kthx.

[missTBA]

to me, taiwanese and chinese are different. a lot of people in taiwan have chinese blood, but like other people already mentioned, they have a lot of other nationalities mixed in.
just because many of the people came from china a long time ago doesn't mean they are chinese. taiwanese people may not be their own race (and hey technically, they are only three races: caucasian, african and asian), but they do have a different culture.
they have the taiwanese language - it's different enough that even people who fluently speak mandarin, for the most part, have no idea what's being said. it has almost as many accents as cantonese. different slang and way of life compared to those in china.

people in america now are called americans, not the british. even though the colonists originally were anglo-saxon, we don't call them british anymore. though the majority are white, and english is still the primary language. they are two separate countries and acknowledged as two different nationalities.

so we'll all argue whatever we want here, but in my pov, there is a distinct difference between chinese and taiwanese.

still love you all :D

[scarletwillow]

The caucasoid, negroid, and mongoloid division of races was proved wrong several years ago... there are actually over 40 main divisions of races.

Americans aren't an ethnicity... it's a nationality. That's why you can call a black guy in American an American. There still is a difference. Likewise, the British are a nationality, not ethnicity. An 2nd generation American that grows up in the UK with pure "American" blood would probably be considered British.

I disagree, there is no distinct difference. How many generations have passed since the civil war? 1? 2?
You can't tell me that there is a distinct bloodline difference that can evolve so quickly. It's simply impossible. The only reason Taiwanese may "look different" than mainland Chinese is because they are less diverse. Saying anything otherwise is just absurd--this is science, not social studies.

If I take a group of Chinese to some far-off island, where we then become the majority, and waited for 50 years...
Would we then become a seperate race? No, we wouldn't.

The Taiwanese people can be seperated into the following:
Taiwanese (including Hakka) 84%, mainland Chinese 14%, aborigine 2%

Know what that means? The Taiwanese group is the original group of mainland Chinese that immigrated after the civil war. The Mainland Chinese group is the group that has recently moved into Taiwan. And aborigines... 2%.

Ask yourself the following:
Do you think that little 2% of aborigines that mixes with the Chinese people, can suddenly create 84% of the country's people as a new race?
If you are Taiwanese, and Taiwanese are a different race than Chinese, do you think you're a different race than your grandparents, who emigrated to your country?

The answer to both should be NO.
I rest my case.

[missTBA]

but now it comes to this point: when we distinguish between so called "chinese" and "taiwanese" people, are we going by ethnicity or nationality?

by what are we defining race? and different races at that? to divide them and identify them, it also depends on what scientist and theory you go by. (i'd love to take a class on this actually). but from what i can just read:

Naturalists and ehnographers divide mankind into
several distinct varieties, or races. Cuvier refers
them all to three, Pritchard enumerates seven, Agassiz
eight, Pickering describes eleven. One of the common
classifications is that of Blumenbach, who makes five
races: the Caucasian, or white race, to which belong
the greater part of the European nations and those of
Western Asia; the Mongolian, or yellow race, occupying
Tartary, China, Japan, etc.; the Ethiopian, or negro
race, occupying most of Africa (except the north),
Australia, Papua, and other Pacific Islands; the
American, or red race, comprising the Indians of North
and South America; and the Malayan, or brown race,
which occupies the islands of the Indian Archipelago,
etc. Many recent writers classify the Malay and
American races as branches of the Mongolian.

in my previous post, you can see i talk of nationalities, not ethnicities.

if we're talking bloodwise, and genetics wise, i'd say that of course we're very similar, to talk in terms of science. but then all humans have over 99% identical DNA. what you state depends in part on what portion of ethnicity that is being emphasized:

definition: ethnicity
n : an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or
cultural ties

there is enough of a difference, IMO, to have those two words: "taiwanese" and "chinese".

[scarletwillow]

About all I can say left, is that I have mainland brothers and sisters, and I have Taiwanese brothers and sisters, and dammit, I still hope that one day, we can all just freaking be Chinese. Yes, Taiwanese and Chinese are different ethnicities. But we are the same race, of course.

Please don't give the 99% identical DNA bull. That's complete bullshit (not trying to demean you, just talking about that fact). Yeah, we're 99% the same. We're humans, dammit. I have fingers, you have fingers! Are we the same as chimpanzees? Don't we share 99% of our DNA with chimps?
I think we have 97% same DNA as bananas too.
That just shows you how pointless that argument is.

Chinese and Taiwanese should be used to talk about nationality, nothing more.

On the original subject, to the starter of this thread...
If I met that girl I'd slap her up, make her my bitch, and show her what the hell being "Chinese" means. In the end, we've all got the same roots.

[missTBA]

lol. actually we have 50% same DNA as bananas. DNA reaches very far.
i was just trying to make the point that if the argument is talking scientifically, we'd have to get into the definite differences between races. and that would probably get very detail oriented, very debatable.
the same roots - oh dear. that's another debate, which could get into creationalism vs. darwinism. or however you want to go.

original topic...seiya's friend is right about different nationalities and languages, but it's true that many of the people came from china. there we go. i think we've exhausted it. :happy:

[scarletwillow]

I'm not talking about creationism...
When I say the same roots, I mean, our ancestors are all from the mainland.

i dont know why im saying to her taiwanese people also chinese
but she said no chinese people and taiwanese is different
She's WRONG. Taiwanese people aren't Chinese at all? I beg to differ!
i told her taiwanese people came from china , thats what i read in history and she said history is bullshit
Taiwanese people did not originate from the mainland? Someone doesn't know shit about world history...
she said we are different from chinese , the language different and she said taiwan language has mix between chinese, and japanese , and i forgot what the other language
anyone can tell me about taiwan?
Attitudes like hers are what's going to lead to war (again).

Ugh. Honestly, if war is the only thing that can change attitudes, I support it.

EDIT:
Oops, only 50%? Well, the argument still stands. I'm not half banana.

[jes!]

taiwanese is still chinese....it should have been part of china..but oh well..asian history...democratic n communist fought so formosa separated from china...remmeber..so taiwanese are still chinese!!! but i think my grandparents came from china i forgot what province

[fluffysheep]

i totally agree that taiwanese people are still chinese. i don't know exactly what basis they have for claiming that taiwanese people and chinese people are two different groups, because...well, everyone knows the history behind that. it doesn't make any sense to me to say that the groups are separate...i can understand what they mean if they're talking about the difference in political views or, well, country of residence, but other than that...we all have the same ancestors, so why try to differentiate amongst yourselves?

but then again, my parents are from mainland china...so i'm sure people from taiwan would disagree.

[scarletwillow]

Their grandparents are from mainland China, so they should have no reason to.

Any Taiwanese that claims that they are a separate "race" from Chinese, should just shut up and look at family history.

Is your mom or dad an aboriginee or Japanese?
Are your grandparents aboriginees or Japanese?
If not, shut up.

If so, stop being stupid and realize that 84% of Taiwan's "Taiwanese" are not like you.

That was not a flame, that was a finger pointed at those ignorant enough to think otherwise.

[hisashiluv14]

Singaporean Chinese are Chinese.
American Chinese are Chinese.
PRC Chinese are Chinese.
The Taiwanese are also Chinese.

Even though I advocate eventual independence for Taiwan, I think they cannot escape from the fact that they speak Chinese like us, they have the same skin colour and history as us.

We should all feel proud of our race and heritage. I may not think anything about China but I am damn proud to be Chinese. At the same time, when I'm not griping about Singapore, I am relatively proud to be Singaporean too.

So I don't see why the taiwan people cannot reconcile the two. You don't have to like China to call yourself Chinese because the concept does not belong to China alone. The Chinese people is everywhere and that is a fact.

As if being Chinese is something shameful.

[scarletwillow]

I support a Chinese Union :P
A freely associative union of Chinese speaking states that classifies as a single country in international terms, shares the same army, etc, but is run by a single group of people at the highest level, with provincial governors.

Personally, I think that would preserve the separate states the former "China" has become, yet providing a sense of unity.

[Calcifer10000]

Maybe if I was from Taiwan I would have a different opinion. But I truly don't see why there's a need to differentiate Taiwanese from Chinese. There are Chinese everywhere, and you should be proud of that fact. The current politics shouldn't mean you should deny your heritage. It just makes everything so much more antagonistic. I mean, you can say you're Taiwanese, but you speak, read, eat...Taiwanese? I'm not 'Taiwanese' but I watch Meteor Garden just fine, the slang and such; the language isn't that different. Mainland China's got tons of dialects and different slang terms too, but for example, people from Shanghai or Shandong (who really have a much different dialect than 'Taiwanese') are still Chinese. India's notorious for having tons of local dialects, but the people are still all Indian.

As to the Mainland not feeling as friendly or welcoming as Taiwan, I say the same thing being born and raised in the US; China certainly doesn't seem as friendly to live in as the US, and that's because I've grown up with different ideals and expectations. But that doesn't mean I'm not Chinese.

From China's over 5000 fascinating years of history, there's Chinese blood everywhere. I know of a Russian woman (who looks totally Caucasian) who can trace back several generations and find Chinese ancestors, and she's certainly not trying to deny it. It makes me sad to see people from Taiwan being ashamed of who they are.

[jes!]

i think if only China and Taiwan wil unite they would become the strongest nation....they would be much stronger than the u.s.....that would give us more asian pride!!lol

[scarletwillow]

Damn straight.
I'm all for that.

[Lingy420]

The differences are rooted in nationality and the basis for this distinction is very much political. Chinese and Taiwanese are from the same racial stock even though race is arbitrary and the result of historical chance but that warrants another discussion. Anyhow, I know many Taiwanese would appreciate to be called Taiwanese instead of Chinese. That's just how it goes. I think cultural pride and the sense of cultural superiority factors in as well. Taiwanese revell in their supposed 'democratic' status and as far as their history is concerned, native-Taiwanese were pretty much a sub-race that was geographically confined to the island and spoke a distinct Chinese dialect 'tai wan hua'. Then Chiang Kai-Shek and his defeated comrades came into Taiwan with promises of building up a democratic, non-fascist nation but let a lot of the native Taiwanese down because of internal corruption and false promises. The irony is that the local Taiwanese WELCOMED them in the beginning. It was then that Mandarin became the official language and has been since.

I am not from China nor from Taiwan so if you asked me, this whole identity issue is pretty ridiculous because we are all ethnically similar. Goddamn labels!!

[jakinni]

I just find it strange that Taiwanese Chinese have to define themselves as Taiwanese, the nationality, whereas many overseas Chinese would classify themselves first and foremost as Chinese, and second as the nationality where they're a citizen of. Chinese heritage is something to be proud of, don't know where that got lost in Taiwan.

[pugsley]

isnt the taiwanese language the same as hokkien (fujian hua)? just slight variation. cos they are originally fujian people. so its just the chinese language anyway just another dialect.

[Vicluva]

Seiya, lemme talk to ur friend and i'll reeducate her in some simple matters that she should already know. im chinese and i am so sick of this 'we dont belong to china, we're japanese or whatever' business that some taiwan ppl seem to have gotten into their heads. face the facts, u DO belong to china and why should u be ashamed of it or try to deny it? u're no better than us (and im not saying we're better than u) and do u honestly think just because u speak a different 'language' (and it's called dialect, by the way, cause the characters r still spelt the same) u're different. what is chinese language? there r hundreds of dirrent dialects in china belonging to the differents groups of ppl and i dont hear them saying 'we're japanese!' if a taiwanese person learns to speak french, does that automatically mean he/she is french origin? i think not.
Seiya, ur friend should get it into her head that she's a chinese person, NOT a japanese person and she should b proud of it, because i am.

[macdawn]

Hi, can I join in this discussion? I am butting into the discussion, I know, so forgive me if I repeat things that had already been said before.... I guess I am too lazy to read thru all 6 pages of text
:blush:

I guess a lot of the arguement here is about people from Taiwan calling themselves 'Taiwanese' before 'Chinese'....

I am not siding with anyone on this matter, but I would like to speak up for the people of Taiwan. Somehow I feel that the matter of whether or not Taiwan should return to China, is a seperate matter from whether they called themselves "Taiwanese" or "Chinese".

I am a Chinese, my grandparents came from China, and I myself had returned to my grandparents' ancestral home in China several times. But if anyone asks me, I would say I am a Singaporean, before I say I am Chinese. That because I renounce my heritage, but just that I have accepted my nationality. I recognise that my roots came from China, but Singapore is where I grew up, and that here is where I belong. So, I would put "Singaporean" before "Chinese". Although, I can still say I am chinese, I wouldn't think of throwing everything I have here in Singapore to run to China's aid.

This is the same in the case of the people of Taiwan, they have grown up in Taiwan, why shouldn't they call themselves Taiwanese?

Now, the matter about the reconciliation of China and Taiwan, we first have to look into the history of the two countries. How was the 'country' of Taiwan formed?

Taiwan used to be a part of China, yes, during which there were original immigrants to the island, mostly from province of Fu-jian, working in the towns. (These people became what they called the "Ben Sheng Ren", "people from 'here'", and are those who usualy speak in mixture of Manadrin and Hokkien)

Also living on this island, were aborigines, who lived in the mountains, people now known as "Yuan Zhu Ming".

During the democratic revolution in China, by the Nationalist Party (Kuomintang) led by Dr Sun Yat-sen, in 1911, the revolutionary efforts were suppressed by the ruling Communist Party. In their bid to escape, the Nationalist Party took shelter in an island, Taiwan. The soldiers who followed the Nationalist Party become what is called as "Wai Sheng Ren", "people from outside of 'here'", most of these people don't speak Hokkien.

Due to the failed revolution in 1911, the Nationalist Party retreated to Taiwan, with the hope and dream of liberating the rest of China from the Communist. So, 1911, is the year of Taiwan's nation-building, hence their calculation of years start from this point, and the year 2004 is "Ming-guo 93". Although Dr Sun never did liberate Communist China, it was in the minds of the original Kuomintang people that they will eventually free China.

With that dream in mind, the Kuomintang built up Taiwan, as a basis of what China would be, when they were 'freed' from Communist rule. Although the many years that had passed had diluted the dreams of the Kuomintang, it was recognised by the "Ben Sheng Ren" that Taiwan is not part of Communist China. That is why most of the people of Taiwan would not want to go back to China.

Since 1911, the Taiwanese had built their country in a manner they hope would one day be replicated in China. That's why most Taiwanese denounce is the current state of government in China. It is not that they denounce their heritage as a Chinese, just that they kept in mind the main reason why Taiwan was formed in the first place.

I guess there are many reasons why China and Taiwan should reunite, but there are also reason why they should remain seperate. I've learnt a lot about Taiwan the last time I went there, especially on the history part. I guess I do accept them for what they are, and if they choose to remain seperate from China, I am fine with it. It does not mean they do not recognise that their ancestors come f

rom China, but just like Singapore, it has built up a national identity, and so it would be very difficult for the Taiwanese to abandon their national identity and call themselves a citizen of People's Republic of China.

Sorry for this extremely long post, but I guess I can't really say these things in a shorter matter..... The reconciliation of Taiwan and China is not an easy matter to debate, as there are many different views to the picture. The main thing is, we have to try and see it from as many angles possible and then judge objectively.

Just my $0.02 worth.....

-MacDawn

[Vicluva]

Wow Macdawn! :excited: well done on that post! i admit i was a little angry when i read this topic so i may have gotten carried away with my post, but reading ur calm, reasonable, fact-filled post/lecture really calmed me down. i guess i can see it from Taiwan's point of view, though i dont nessecarily agree with how some ppl r showing their 'patriotism'. i was born in china and grew up in australia, and i do consider myself an australian like u consider urself singaporean, though my chinese background is still always very close to me. the reason i'm so mad at some taiwanese ppl is that they wont acknowledge themselves as having ANY relation to china, and that's what gets me off. :wstupid:
still, ur post really gave me some new insight on the taiwan-chinese topic, and i thank u for it.

[taiwanguonanhai]

Well..........
I am going to put in my -.02.

I am probably one of the few people here who recognizes themself as a Taiwanese. But this is not just a political-propaganda way, ethnically I am a Taiwanese as my familie's history traces back on Taiwan to even before Japanese occupation. And while I am part Cantonese, my father's parents were part of a small Cantonese group that moved to southern Taiwan sometime around Japanese occupation if i remember correctly. But yea, being part of three ethnicities that were rooted in Taiwan for so long I have come to associate as a Taiwanese.

Yes Cantonese is part of Chinese, but when does a sub-ethnicity really make itself separate from a place that it moved to? Especially when they are there for so long?

So maybe because of my heritage I see Taiwan as a semi-Singapore because its people are really a mix of ethnicities. There are the Mongolians who were the people who made up the aboriginee pop. and the small Chinese ethnicities that migrated over on their own and of course those Chinese that came with the Qing dynasty and the Wai Sheng Ren.

But the difference between the mix of races in Singapore and those in Taiwan is that, in Taiwan, the ethnicities have been mixed into one. In Singapore there is sections for Chinese, Indian, etc. But in Taiwan all of the people have developed into one culture together with small little towns still dedicated to Cantonese and Hakka and aboriginees etc. But in majority of everyday life, people have a unique Taiwanese culture and thus more people are calling themselves Taiwanese now.

Am I pro Taiwanese independance? Yes. And while I am not opposed to mainland China(never really been past HK though so I dont have an opinion of how life really is in China), I don't think that the CHinese people have a right to call Taiwan part of China. If Taiwan were a part of China then Taiwan would not be holding democratic election or have to buy defense systems to protect it from its 'owner'. China needs Taiwan like it needed Hong Kong imho. But thats a whole different topic that I dont know if we should get into in this thread.

And look at this: 400 years ago the British, French, Dutch, Swedish, and Spanish came to the Americas. And in that course of time the colonists were able to separate from their ethnic roots and merge into one country the USA, incorporating aspects of Quakerism, Anglicanism and all of that good stuff. And while it has only been 90 something years for Taiwan culture to merge with the one that the Ben Sheng Ren brought along, the society has already been able to evolve into a totally different one. Sort of like how in HK people still classify themselves as Heung Gang Yan and those from ShenZhen up as Dai Luk Yan. (Ok I dont know if there is a 'pin yin' type system for Cantonese so excuse me for the bad translation).
Ok that was long....sorry. -_-"

[Chun Li]

MacDawn, I fully agree with you.

I'm an ABC. My family is Taiwanese, and my grandparents and ancestors were born in China. We're Taiwanese because we moved there following the war.

I used to think that Taiwan should be a part of the mainland. I used to think that calling themselves Taiwanese was somewhat irrelevant.

However, now that I live in China, I completely retract all of those ideas. The two places are different. So different. The people, their ideas, their lifestyles, CULTURE even. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just saying that if they combine right now there will be major issues. I don't think any "merge" is acceptable until 20 years down the line, when China is more modernized.

I'm also speaking right now from a cultural point of view, let's not get into the economics for now.

[hisashiluv14]

I personally advocate eventual independence for Taiwan (I'm sure I mentioned this previously). My reason is simple: Taiwan is not China. I grew up in Taiwan, I have family in Taiwan, I see Taiwan as another home, and it is nothing like China. Yes, we all speak the same language and we all share the same skin colour and I do take pride in all of this, but the fact still remains that the Taiwanese way of life differs so much from the mainland Chinese's.

I think what we're arguing over here is a nationality issue and not an ethnic one. I don't think the Taiwanese people reject the fact that they are hua ren (ethnic Chinese). A lot of them do, however, reject reunification with China because that would be forcing them to accept a new identity, one which is alien and incongruous with their consciousness.

I can relate to that a lot. And I never thought that Taiwan should be a part of China. I've always seen Taiwan as a separate country, another Chinese state. What's wrong with that?

[~*Love Jay*~]

I don't want to offend any of you but........umm......
Well.........yes it is true........Taiwan has always known to be a part of China..........
I have several friends who are Taiwanese and they told me that they dun mind if they're thought of as a part of China and that some Taiwan people out there just don't want to admit they're a part of China. Thatz all I'm goin to say.

[tortilla_chips]

the taiwanese language is a combination of japanese and chinese? *snorts* give me a break. it's just plain old hokkien, which happens to be a dialect from the fujian province in china. some countries acknowledge taiwan as an independent republic, while others just see it as a part of china. they may not think of themselves as chinese nationals, but they're still chinese, no matter how hard some of them try to turn into americans or japanese. so there is no difference, as long as their race is concerned.

[taiwanguonanhai]

the taiwanese language is a combination of japanese and chinese? *snorts* give me a break. it's just plain old hokkien, which happens to be a dialect from the fujian province in china. some countries acknowledge taiwan as an independent republic, while others just see it as a part of china. they may not think of themselves as chinese nationals, but they're still chinese, no matter how hard some of them try to turn into americans or japanese. so there is no difference, as long as their race is concerned.

Then shouldnt a lot of the Americans call themselves British or Irish or Dutch or Swedish or French or one of the many different races that came here?

Taiwans the same way, yes Taiwanese is a chinese dialect, but Anglo-English is considered by many a dialect of British English. And guess what, only some 15% of the people in Taiwan are full Chinese(i.e parents are both mainlanders). Most everyone else is a mixture of malay-polynesian race that were considered the aboriginees and people who immigrated from China. Which would constitute the Taiwanese race, just like how people from England and France had children together later on in colonial days and the other races having kids together, thus creating Americans.
Sorry, AP history really sticks to ya...... :blush:

[scarletwillow]

No, apparently AP history did nothing for you.
Tell me, do your parents have aboriginee blood? What about your grandparents?

If no, then you're wrong.
BTW, just in case you're too ignorant to know this, but China is composed of many, many ethnic groups. And guess what bia? We're all Chinese!

[taiwanguonanhai]

Yea my mom is part aborigine part japanese. And her grandparents are both aborigine.

And where does my US history reference not make sense?

We're having a nice discussion here so dont call me bia.

Also, yes China is made up of Mongolians, whatever many Manchus are left, and lord knows how many others. But, wasnt it something like 95% of the population in China is Han? Dunno if thats right or not, I just remember hearing something like that.....But if thats so, then wouldnt it mean that most of them are pure CHinese?

Thats not the case in Taiwan, where most people are a mix of aboriginee and one of the many different Chinese races that immigrated there.

I dunno though, there's very little point in really debating this. I dont even know if this thread is about Taiwanese as a nationality or race. And most of this would just be propaganda that our parents and elders have passed onto us.

[scarletwillow]

Well, slap my ass and call me Susan.
NM about the AP thing, didn't read your post well enough.

You seem like an exception to me. I know MANY MANY Taiwanese, and not a single one of them has anything but mainland Chinese blood.

[taiwanguonanhai]

Well, slap my ass and call me Susan.
NM about the AP thing, didn't read your post well enough.

You seem like an exception to me. I know MANY MANY Taiwanese, and not a single one of them has anything but mainland Chinese blood.
haha :laughing: that has to be one of the oddest lines I've ever heard someone say/write bleh....

Anyways.....thats on an individual level with the people you know. But fact is, most of Taiwan is technically mixture of Taiwanese and aboriginee. Most of them are concentrated in the south, the best place of course :yeah: cause thats where Im from haha.

[scarletwillow]

I'm from the dirty south, what'da ya expect :P
I love grits.

I still dunno. You're honestly the first Taiwanese I've come into contact with who's got origins other than 100% mainland.

I've always considered the aboriginee Taiwanese to be Chinese anyways (by Chinese I meant us as a people, not as a nation). I mean, the ethnic groups of China/Taiwan/Tibet/Mongolia have been together for so long I just consider them all more or less Chinese. Thais, too.

[hisashiluv14]

According to my dad who majored in Chinese history in the university, the aboriginal people of Taiwan have connections to the Malay heritage.

The Taiwanese, aka the ones who speak Hokkien/Taiwanese/whatever one wants to call it but it's essentially the same goddamn thing, migrated to Taiwan from China. For what reason or purpose, I don't know.

And of course we have the mass movement of the KMTians from China to Taiwan as led by Chiang Kai-shek. Those are the ones dubbed 'wai shen ren'.

My dad's Taiwanese and he's 100% Chinese. And I have just lost my original point. BLOODY HELL.

[JianDan[Ai]]

i think this is a very confusing and complicated point...

right now u have taiwan full of people who do have "aboriginal blood" and "wai shen ren"

i dont know the numbers, but im sure there has been plenty of mixing of blood, and may i add, the mass immigrantion from china to taiwan led by Chiang Kai-shek was not the first time chinese went to taiwan. But anyways, what im saying, is that now there is a huge mix up of who is who. Im sure there are lots of younger generations, whose parents are all from china, or grandparents from china, but FEEL they are "taiwanese." It is the people who have clear cut blood from china, but refuse to say they are chinese, and call themselves "taiwanese" that i think are the ones I have a bit of a problem with.

I remember talking about this before, but there is a clear cut different between Nationality, and Ethnicity. If I lived in Taiwan, and had a Taiwanese Passport, and was a Taiwanese Citizen, by saying my nationality is Taiwanese, that is fine. But I am clearly Chinese, and i know it, that is my ethnicity. When people deny their ethnicity, to be "free" or "independent"...thats just lame.

I personally agree with SW, that taiwan has enough blood lines to china, that it should be reunited with China. However, not under either of the current government.

ok now that i think about it, that was really disorganized and i dun even know what i wanted to say with that, but oh well...im 2 lazy to change it...at least that last paragraph basically says my thoughts on it.

--

Now as for the Taiwan/China strife, i think that there are many reasons for it. I bring this up because i think that chinese and taiwanese people should not be so aggresive towards each other, esp since they are neighbors.

I think that the main reasons for the strife are these. America, Japan, and the People of Taiwan, both chinese and taiwanese's simple ignorance to the matter.

First off ill skip america, as i think they are one of the larger reasons. Japan, they had control of Taiwan for over 50 years, and in that time they gained quite a bit of Japanese support in Taiwan. Even the last president, was proud that he could speak Japanese. Now everyone knows china and japan are not the best of friends, but for dipolamtic reasons they beg to differ. Anyhow, basically Japan has a foot in Taiwan, which in turn has a Foot up China's ass...China doesnt want to see Japanese influence continue to grow around them, nor does it want to see it in Taiwan.

As for America, i must say for once they are smart, and for once, presidents like bush can actually be good at something. See from americas point of vew, they have control of china and taiwan. How? Ok. We all know Taiwan and America have decent relationships, arguably better than that of china and the US. Taiwan to that effect, wants to emulate america and become democratic. (which on the side, someone should tell those idiots that by just haing people vote, doesnt make it democratic, esp if the results are rigged, there are a lot of other things involved in being a democracy) but anyways, america does have control over taiwanese politics, as taiwan needs america to "protect" it, as a valueable trade partner, and of course as a model for democracy. For this reason Taiwan follows America. Not to mention the last few presidents have all studied in America and have learned american ways. (another thing to the side, what kinda stupid congress is taiwan running? my friends dad is a senator in taiwan, but he lives here in america, and i see him here all the time, although im sure he has a house there and flies back and forth often, i see him here WAY too much...how the hell do u represent the people in congress if u dont even LIVE there half the time -_-) so the presidents of late just are the cherry on the cake...they are obident little idiots following americas lead...(not to mention wasting million eac

h year on old american crap...aka as weapons)

anyways, america has a control on china. hard to believe? well first off america has taiwan as a bargaining chip. It can tell taiwan what to do and...obviously has something china wants. China cannot win a war with america, hence it wont do anything to taiwan obviously (yet taiwan still wastes money on weapons...why? they wanna rub it in china's face....when u think about it...those things will never be used)in a report a little while before the election, it stated that president bush had urged shui bien not to propose ...i forgot what it was exactly, but bien has proposed things that would be a further move for independence...(bad wording, but i cant think of anything better at 6:30 in the morning) ...of course America doesnt care, its one of those things america says to let china know, they arent supporting taiwan in this and are not to be blamed if taiwan does go farther and farther astray from china. (that article was an american article, look in any taiwanese source and i guarentee u will not find it, cuz thats probably not what bush said, if anything)

so basically, this is good for america. We have a little country that wants to buy our crap (weapons) which will never be used again and the US has a big bargaining chip on another emerging world power

well..ignorance of the people...its pretty obvious...i dunno what to say here...they are like the soccer ball in a soccer game, get kicked around, but it never complains and goes along happily in whatever direction u wanna kick it to.

ok im not expert on the topic. I dont claim to know everything. and i know there may be holes in my argument that i dont see because of things i dont know about. But thats what i see.

so as a restatement of how i feel...taiwan is controlled by the US, in turn China is controlled by the US (to a degree) taiwan, aside from a poor governmental system, should join up with china i believe, but DEFINETLY not under either of the current governments...taiwan's being even weaker and less organized than china's but still, neither would work. As for one's ethnicity, the problem is caused by those who claim their nationality and ethnicity is the same when there is truly a clear difference.

ok im tired...i hope i dun confuse u...cuz i think if i read it...i would be =/

[scarletwillow]

Read of all my dear bro's words. Well said.

Long live our people.
Death to our politics.
Death to the invaders.

[Phil]

In my opinion about the situation, Taiwan people regard themselves as Taiwanese for their nationality and i totally respect that. Legally, they are 2 different countries, but their language is the same. It's like... Canadians and Americans share the same language, but you would never tell a Canadian that they are American... does anyone agree with me?

[Calcifer10000]

Yeah, go reasoning and logic, JianDan[Ai]! That was a most excellent post.

As to Americans and Canadians, Phil, I know what you're talking about; I have a classmate from Canada and she's damn proud of it. But there's a difference between comparing Canadians and Americans; there isn't a question of control involved. Canada doesn't have much that the US covets, and so they couldn't care less either way. However, I'm sure if there isn't the complicated political mess as JianDan[Ai] was explaining about, if Taiwan was just some rural, non-money-making little island, there wouldn't be a question of calling yourself Taiwanese, because no one would care.

[scarletwillow]

Canadians are of British and French descent.
Americans (most) are of British and German descent.

In fact, when they were deciding the primary language for America, German almost beat out English. Imagine what would've happened during WWII if that happened.

[cync.jay]

well..taiwanese ran out from china..but that's boring stuff...now i wanna speak my mind..hey taiwanese don't be offended..i think this young generation of taiwanese are erm like not really gonna mature... i watch tv prog...and it always feature them as erm...star struck, brand craze,and yes japan craze,just fooling around..well again..i m sure it's only like a little percentage kua..so taiwanese...prove me wrong

[Lain Lang]

hum...for some reason i have the same kind of felling as cync.jay...
i'm not exactly taiwanese since i wasnt born there...
but i have gone there a lot, and my cousins give me that impression sometimes, the tv progs and the teen points in general...
ow...and i dont feel offended if someone call me chinese...it's just gets annoying if someone wants to know about the china and i say 'Hum...i dont know about china that much...but i know about taiwan' and they said...'taiwan? hum... AH! i remember!'....yeah..things like that happens a lot..

[scarletwillow]

well..taiwanese ran out from china..but that's boring stuff...now i wanna speak my mind..hey taiwanese don't be offended..i think this young generation of taiwanese are erm like not really gonna mature... i watch tv prog...and it always feature them as erm...star struck, brand craze,and yes japan craze,just fooling around..well again..i m sure it's only like a little percentage kua..so taiwanese...prove me wrong

That's my general impression as well... of the Taiwanese that live here in the US, anyways. Of course, not meant to be discriminatory in any way... just my general observations.

Puppet Taiwan, puppeteer USA.

[kewlpiggy88]

well, i don't think watching tv is a really good way to get an idea of what the young ppl are like. i mean, if you watch popular american shows....like friends, will&grace, o.c., lizzie mcguire (for those tweens out there), ER, blahblahblah...our lives aren't like that at all. i read somewhere that some country in the middle east watches those shows and then they think all americans are like that and then they dont' likethat...you really can't judge by the shows that are put out.

also, this is just my opinion. there are a lot of different things between china and taiwan. like the way ppl talk (seriously, i can barely understand the 'jruan se' of people from beijing), style of dress, and a lot of ppl speak taiwanese, which is tooooooooooooootally diff then mandarin. i mean, u can argue that a lotta ppl from taiwan came from china..but then, they did leave china for a reason, right? they've developed a unique identity. and what about japanese, korean? aren't they from china too? but they're obviously their own country.

now about the semi-recent presidential election. all "fake" shootings aside, all no votes of 300,000 military ppl aside, ppl still voted for the guy who wants independence from taiwan. i don't know much about politics and i know people who don't think tw should be independent may be all "RAWR" at me, but still...even if the shooting hadn't happened and he allowed those military ppl to vote, a really large percentage of ppl still want to be independent. and i think u really gotta listen to the public.

the topic here is pretty hot...i live in a densely populated azn community. i'd say 40-50% of my school is asian, and it's mostly "chinese". i say "chinese" because a lot of the people are taiwanese immigrants, and some kids consider themselves taiwanese. this one kid even wore an "a-bian" hat to school two days ago. on those standardized tests, they put other for their ethnicity cuz they don't consider themselves chinese - they consider themselves taiwanese. i've argued with this guy in chemistry with another girl. i mean...people even look different. u can tell if someone's from china or if they're from taiwan.

so if u guys say that the young generation doesn't care..well...i have to disagree cuz there are at least people at my school who do care. and they're ppl on the other side too....we're well-informed. there was even an article in the school newspaper cuz some parents went back to vote, and i saw this parent yelling at our adviser cuz she thought it was biased.

neway, i was born here to two parents who were born in taiwanese. so i guess i'm ABC, but as i've grown older, i'm a bit more partial to ABT.

[Chun Li]

I think what mainly separates us claiming ABT or ABC is just the MODERN cultural differences between the two "countries."

[hisashiluv14]

well..taiwanese ran out from china..but that's boring stuff...now i wanna speak my mind..hey taiwanese don't be offended..i think this young generation of taiwanese are erm like not really gonna mature... i watch tv prog...and it always feature them as erm...star struck, brand craze,and yes japan craze,just fooling around..well again..i m sure it's only like a little percentage kua..so taiwanese...prove me wrong

That's something that can be applied to teenagers from all over the world. You have people in this forum itself saying that they want to be Taiwanese just so that they can attend "those autograph sessions" and whatnot. Why single out Taiwan? I'm seeing it in Singapore. You see it on TV in Japan. So what makes Taiwan so special? I'm sorry but that is just a completely unfair generalisation.

When there is young people, there is star-struck people. Believe me, *I* was star-struck too last night when I had the honour of seeing Lee Kang-Sheng in person.

(You don't know who he is, I know. He's an actor in Taiwanese arthouse films. Recently directed his own film which I watched yesterday which completely blew me away.)

Will type more when I actually have the time to read through the long posts.

[scarletwillow]

Hey hey hey! It's the path to war!
Cha cha cha! Gotta slay em all...

Ze road map to peace includes ze rest stop of var!

[hisashiluv14]

On the topic of the elections. It wasn't democracy because it was an unfair election. The shooting incident itself influenced voters to lean towards Chen Shui-bian. That, and so many other factors, got him his victory. I won't even say that it's the will of the people. How can it be the will of the people when 1) there people voting out of freaking SYMPATHY, not a political judgement; 2) there were more invalid votes than the margin which Chen won by; and 3) a large proportion of the people were barred from voting? Is this a full democracy? Hardly.

I am for Taiwanese independence, but I don't think he's the one to fight for it. My whole family is pan-blue. I don't know where I'm going with this but I was pretty ticked off by the election results.

Ah, whatever.

[JianDan[Ai]]

I saw this ad in Time Magazine basically announcing Taiwan's Election (this was a while back)...i was kinda ticked off cuz the in particular used a woman in the ad that DIDN'T look full chinese...obviously they were trying to say "we are different than china" ....but basically the gist of the ad was..."we are having a election, therefore we are a democracy"

Someone should tell them voting does NOT equal democracy. There is a lot more to it.....

[scarletwillow]

Yeah, you have to have uncensored porn and niche markets for teenage girls willing to bare it all, too.

[hisashiluv14]

Really Alby? There was an ad? Weird, I missed it.

So like Ah Chen Qian Bian is like giving his like inaugural like speech like AGAIN this month?

Will tune in then. He's sure to make me laugh my ass off.

[JianDan[Ai]]

Really Alby? There was an ad? Weird, I missed it.



yea ive been looking everywhere online for a scan of it, but i cant find it..if my parents saved that TIME magazine, ill try to scan it in and show u guys...

i also remember seeing another ad in a much older TIME magazine, which im sure i dun have anymore, which was boasting the completion of the Tapei 101 or whatever that building is called, the world's tallest building now, but only for a few years =P

i saw it in real life, its a awesome building...but a complete waste...Taiwan is just trying to make its claim to fame, which will be lost in a few years...it might boost commerce a bit...but i think there could have been a lot of better investments that could have been made =/

[destined]

Oh yeah since ur taking about tawainese people heard that these taiwanese men were selling some women on ebay...
can't believe do such a thing

[scarletwillow]

Until I see a link, I won't believe that.
It's illegal to sell people, obviously. It's probably a joke. If Ebay finds out, they'll just cancel the auctions.

Well, if someone does find a link...
Eh, I'll bid.

[kewlpiggy88]

oh, i saw that time ad too. at the time i was relaly confused on what it was advertising. i was like....is there some political affiliation attached? but my guess was that they wanted the world to know what was happening?

[hisashiluv14]

']

i saw it in real life, its a awesome building...but a complete waste...Taiwan is just trying to make its claim to fame, which will be lost in a few years...it might boost commerce a bit...but i think there could have been a lot of better investments that could have been made =/

Do you take Economics Alby? I'd think that you did, as you made 2cool4u sprout all that Economics bullcrap during his 15 minutes of fame... :laughing:

But anyway, can I use that as an example of how a government can waste resources in future Economics essays?

[JianDan[Ai]]

haha yea sure. And i only took one economics class this year as a breadth requirement...haha i dont claim to know much about the topic... =P

If u wanna use it as an example tho, u hafta make sure u mention clearly the type of economic difficulties Taiwan is in at the moment =P

[KaiLien]

OMG I have some friends like that too. I really hate it when we get into the whole chinese-taiwanese thing. They get sooo offended when people ask if they are chinese people or from mainland China. They're like no, I'm taiwanese and only taiwanese. Then, we talk about what I am. I am an abc but they keep calling me an american person! I'm clearly chinese and I tell them to at least call me a chinese-american or something but they won't budge! Anyways, they just do and say some stuff that are really prejudice and I really don't approve of. I tell them mildly to stop being so racist but they don't care. I really hate it.

[raerei]

yup..i am a "Wai Sheng Ren"...so what! who cares!
well...when i was growing up in taiwan, the elementary school push that every one speaks mandarian and not taiwanese, now days, they said the true taiwanese culture is existing and now they are pushing ppl to speak taiwanese...its pretty funny actually...manadrian, taiwanese, cantonese, hakken, etc are just different dialect of chinese...its not big deal....like me, i dont speak taiwanese(tai-yue), but i can understand a bit...

Yeah!! Seriously!! Everyone speaks Mandarin there!! You don't really need Taiwanese to talk. But, I think that sometimes, Taiwanese and Chinese are differennt in a way............... but people shouldn't get so aggravated.

[scarletwillow]

Being called Chinese-American is a freaking insult.
Hi b*tches. I'm from China.
Damn proud of it too.

I'm Chinese. My blood is Chinese.
Am I a Chinese-American? Hell no. My blood came from across the ocean.
Better dig damn far into the Earth if you want more.

Hell, it's as bad as "African American".
F*ck politically correct. Black people here ain't ever been to Africa. They're black.

[taiwanguonanhai]

also, this is just my opinion. there are a lot of different things between china and taiwan. like the way ppl talk (seriously, i can barely understand the 'jruan se' of people from beijing), style of dress, and a lot of ppl speak taiwanese, which is tooooooooooooootally diff then mandarin. i mean, u can argue that a lotta ppl from taiwan came from china..but then, they did leave china for a reason, right? they've developed a unique identity. and what about japanese, korean? aren't they from china too? but they're obviously their own country.

now about the semi-recent presidential election. all "fake" shootings aside, all no votes of 300,000 military ppl aside, ppl still voted for the guy who wants independence from taiwan. i don't know much about politics and i know people who don't think tw should be independent may be all "RAWR" at me, but still...even if the shooting hadn't happened and he allowed those military ppl to vote, a really large percentage of ppl still want to be independent. and i think u really gotta listen to the public.

the topic here is pretty hot...i live in a densely populated azn community. i'd say 40-50% of my school is asian, and it's mostly "chinese". i say "chinese" because a lot of the people are taiwanese immigrants, and some kids consider themselves taiwanese. this one kid even wore an "a-bian" hat to school two days ago. on those standardized tests, they put other for their ethnicity cuz they don't consider themselves chinese - they consider themselves taiwanese. i've argued with this guy in chemistry with another girl. i mean...people even look different. u can tell if someone's from china or if they're from taiwan.

so if u guys say that the young generation doesn't care..well...i have to disagree cuz there are at least people at my school who do care. and they're ppl on the other side too....we're well-informed. there was even an article in the school newspaper cuz some parents went back to vote, and i saw this parent yelling at our adviser cuz she thought it was biased.

neway, i was born here to two parents who were born in taiwanese. so i guess i'm ABC, but as i've grown older, i'm a bit more partial to ABT.

Ok....must make more simple and clear.

From what I have observed and been told by plenty of elders about Asian history makes me think that Taiwan is sort of a radical in terms of asian society. If you look at the history, asian people and countries has alawys been dominated by some power. Whether it was colonial European one or an Asian one, it always had some major force in it. And for the most part these were empires that ruled over their specific ethnic group. Just look at Korea. Many Koreans want the two koreas to become one as they share the same heritage and it seems inevitable that they will. Sort of like how Macau and HK got returned to China. it just seems inevitable. But now we have Taiwan and China.

Taiwan does have plenty of Han Chinese in it but majority is Taiwanese(meaning mix of aboriginee and immigrant). This is where that whole 'taiwan identity crisis' comes into play. Going back to Asian history, the thing that unifies the countries has always been race(Koreans in Korea, Japanese in Japan, etc.). Here China has convinced itself that Taiwan is filled with Chinese just dying to get back to China. Thus it would seem to be the norm for Taiwan to rejoin with its ethnic home. But the problem is, Taiwanese people have become the majority, yet they are still faced with the propaganda and polarization of being in a country where you either want independence or reunification with no real middle ground. This is that identity crisis. Ethnicity is such a big part of Asian politics that its what must be played upon in the case of taiwan's status quo. And there's the little details that must be applied as well. China finds it legitimate to say Taiwan and its people are Chinese and part of China as we use Han characters and speak a fairly modified but essentially same Han yu. For this I have to say that singapore, korea, japan and vietnam use Han characters as well so why should they complain about Taiwan's use of it?

Basically China has no real basis to say that Taiwan is a part of China.

I dont know how to make sense of what I want to say completely so if you're confused or something ask.

[venusjay]

It IS an elitist attitude. It's just like the Shanghainese looking down at the rest of the mainland Chinese, or the HKers thinking they're "better." It's all politics.

If China was the more economically superior country (which they have high potential to be) would Taiwan still want so badly to be seen as seperate island country? Heh. People always look down on others when they're doing better. But what goes around comes around, and if someday in the future Taiwan's economy goes through the tubes, they'll run to China with their tail between their legs looking for investment. Other than China, what other country would give a shit? The smarter Taiwanese have already realized this and dump all their savings and investments in China. Overseas Chinese (especially Taiwanese) are one of the biggest funding groups of the current economic developments in China. Only the idiots in Taiwan are sitting on their political thrones claiming their independence. Moreover, they've tried to brainwash the populace into thinking that it's an entire "race" issue and that they're really not Chinese. Whatever. When the money flows from China in the future, I predict a big change in attitude.

As for the "real" Taiwanese dialect... the Hakka dialect came from Fujian. Fujian is a province in China. End of story.

you are absolutely right..taiwan is a part of China. It's unchangeable truth..No socalled 'taiwanese' at all..they are only ppl living in Taiwan province...they are Chinese...

although some of u taiwan ppl deny this ..

[taiwanguonanhai]

you are absolutely right..taiwan is a part of China. It's unchangeable truth..No socalled 'taiwanese' at all..they are only ppl living in Taiwan province...they are Chinese...

although some of u taiwan ppl deny this ..

yea ok.... :rolleyes: Im not taiwanese at all and neither is my family. No one on Taiwan is Taiwanese...not even the aboriginees(which I am btw)but no we're still Chinese even though we're descendants of malay-polynesians. So please, tell me my family is Chinese not Taiwanese.

Give me one thing that says Taiwan is any way part of China. Just saying Taiwan is part of China and its unchangeable truth is not enough to prove anything....despite what you and the Chinese PRC gov't. think.

[the one]

taiwanese, cantonese and chinese are all different ppl.
but china just wants to rule them all.
i don't agree though. if hong kong and taiwan want
to be democratic, then why not just leave them alone?
*sigh* this is a never-ending case that hasn't been
settled yet.. how long will this go on? i don't know..

[JianDan[Ai]]

its not so much a question of goernment, democracy vs communism, but a question of cultural identity i think

how chinese people look at taiwanese people differently from other chinese and visa versa, and how that affects how the 2 countiries interact.

but i wanna just say again, that it is true they are different, but we are all also the same. Our nationalities are different. For example I am an American, but that doesnt mean i am white, or necessarily speak english. My nationality as an American is only because i live here. Ethnically, I am chinese. My heritage is chinese. I believe that ethnically "taiwanese" and "mainland chinese" are the same, yet because of currently politics, both sides are pushing each other away.

[mitsui]

it's basically the same language, but they've got some terms that aren't the same as mainland mandarin.
:oops:
i got so annoyed when my friends all saying that china sucks and taiwan is so much better
hey~ i got nothing to complaint that taiwan is better maybe at technical stuffs and living standard blah blah blah
but china is cool man~ :crazy: what do they think they are by saying all the more "superioty" of taiwaness
i mean, being hearing about china-is-crap stuffs from other countries like america or something is already enough
but hearing it from taiwan is just....argh!~

excuse me for screaming` :tongue:

']its not so much a question of goernment, democracy vs communism, but a question of cultural identity i think

how chinese people look at taiwanese people differently from other chinese and visa versa, and how that affects how the 2 countiries interact.

but i wanna just say again, that it is true they are different, but we are all also the same. Our nationalities are different. For example I am an American, but that doesnt mean i am white, or necessarily speak english. My nationality as an American is only because i live here. Ethnically, I am chinese. My heritage is chinese. I believe that ethnically "taiwanese" and "mainland chinese" are the same, yet because of currently politics, both sides are pushing each other away.

again... *cough*
sorry to offend anyone during my long speech

the reason that the two places fight is not only for government policies

it is mainly because taiwan *mostly* looks down at mainland people, i mean even in australia, if u tell people u r taiwaness, it sounds better than to say u r chinese

taiwan rather be controll by japan than china :dry:

[ftlouiea]

taiwanese, cantonese and chinese are all different ppl.
but china just wants to rule them all.
i don't agree though. if hong kong and taiwan want
to be democratic, then why not just leave them alone?
*sigh* this is a never-ending case that hasn't been
settled yet.. how long will this go on? i don't know..


I agree that you say they are different, but like JianDan[AI] said, we are all the same in heritage, and we are derived from the same roots.

Also agree that HongKong and Taiwan should be given democracy, but this DOES NOT mean they leave the Republic of China.
I'm not China-ese by saying this, even I'm hk, and i believe this, even though i hate this communism in China.

[mitsui]

i agree that hk, taiwan and china are all the same type of people
it is just that some people are ashamed to be called "chinese" apparently

and yes, it is stupid to unit all of them if they don't want to
but i think china is probably going to give up
seeing that USA will help taiwan if there is a war

[Vicluva]

I'm not China-ese by saying this, even I'm hk, and i believe this, even though i hate this communism in China.

Im Chinese and I hate communism as well, but it really shouldnt affect people's judgement of what a 'chinese person' is like, or chinese as a general word. it's not the ppl's fault they're in a communist country, they were mostly likely born there and dont have much of a choice of the polictical situation anyway.
For instance I live in australia and it's not the australian's fault our Prime Minister is an idiot who follows everything George Bush says even though it's total crap

it is mainly because taiwan *mostly* looks down at mainland people, i mean even in australia, if u tell people u r taiwaness, it sounds better than to say u r chinese


Now whenever i hear something like that it just makes me feel sick. Why the hell would you be ashamed to chinese?! I AM DAMN PROUD OF BEING CHINESE and there's NO reason why they shouldnt b!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! honestly, its like saying that ur ashamed of ur mother. :-x
as to USA helping taiwan in a war? well, its George Bush :dry:

[JianDan[Ai]]

the reason that the two places fight is not only for government policies

it is mainly because taiwan *mostly* looks down at mainland people, i mean even in australia, if u tell people u r taiwaness, it sounds better than to say u r chinese

taiwan rather be controll by japan than china :dry:


You know, in taiwan, they look down on Mainland chinese too. There is a reason "Wai Shen Ren" have their own title. So it doesn't make the Taiwanese any better, they are both "hating" on each other.

And if Taiwan was controlled by Japan, there would be a real war. Some part of Taiwan's problems with China are because they were controlled by Japan. If they were to become part of Japan, things would get very messy. I do not support that. I would much rather have the communists come in and take over Taiwan than have Japanese rule over them.

Taiwan right now, u might as well say is controlled by the US. Which isn't exactly good either. Read my post here (http://jay-chou.net/forums/showpost.php?p=145563&postcount=102). Its long, but if you have patience, you will see why Taiwan is but a tool for the US to keep tabs on China and how Taiwan thinks they are "gaining their freedom" by following the US's leadership. Let me make clear, that holding a election DOES NOT MAKE YOU A DEMOCRACY. There is a lot more that needs to done. Simply holding an election can be just a way to manipulate people into thinking they have a say, when in reality it may not be true, which I believe was the fact this time. The fact that no one has been able to pressure the current president about the stunning facts of how false his attempted murder and his 51.1% to 49.9% winning votes only proves the lack of democracy there is in Taiwan right now.

Yes i think Taiwan should be democractic, dont think im arguing for communism. However there is overwhelming evidence that Taiwan is not ready for it. They current government has a terribly agenda, poor plans for an economy which has in the last few years receded greatly. While i do not support communism (which is an idealistic government which in theory should work, can never really work in practice) currently china is doing much better economically than taiwan regardless of the size/human work force difference.

So if you are wondering what my opinion is, China and Taiwan SHOULD be re-unifed. However I do no want them to be reunifed under either of the current governments.

However more importantly i want to address the difference of "Ethnicity and Nationality." Nationality is how you associate yourself. If I lived in Taiwan, and had a Taiwanese Passport, and was a Taiwanese Citizen, then it would be an accurate statement to say my nationality is Taiwanese. No one would argue with that. However my ethnicity, is dependent on my heritage and has NOTHING what so ever to do with my nationality. I am a chinese. SO no matter where i live, grow up, who i marry, where i die, i am STILL a chinese. I cannot (nor do i wish to) escape this. Taiwanese people ARE for the most part chinese (read that post that i gave a link to above for my argument). For the "taiwanese" people to CLEARLY state they are not, and do not want to be associated or called "chinese" is denial of their heritage and is just as much a crime as say treason, prehaps worse. It is almost comparable to the cultural revolution in china (communist revolution to destroy the traditional chinese identity to create a new china of worker classes).

[amdawn]

I'm thinking of lee hom's version of 'descendants of the dragon' lyrics which tells of a past where there is a dragon named 'china' and in the same place there were 'descendants of the dragon'. These descendants had black eyes, black hair and yellow skin and forever 'descendants of the dragon'. Even though being raised in other lands, one is still a descendant of the dragon. It is unbelievable to that those from taiwan do not call themselves chinese. I don't see why they choose to hail to differences and choose to divide people who are knitted together culturally. There are variances but no need to spew hatred over it.
If Taiwan does not want to become a part of China, then let it be. Though they may not be linked by government, there is no doubt they will continue to exchange with other because they are more alike than they admit to it. Especially with a economic revolution that is occuring in China now and in many years to come. Mainland China may not been deemed as stylish or wealthy now but watch out. The dragon is gonna re-emerge.

[ftlouiea]

^ Seconded.

Also, Though Taiwan believe they have the support of USA, USA are using Taiwan to buy military armaments off them. I can't remember the actual sum, but the total sum of the armaments USA were offering to Taiwan was huge. Maybe $85billion dollars of stuff? (Forgive me if that figure is wrong, it is just a random number that suddenly shown out in my head!) Shows that USA are only doing this for profits.

[sauerkraut]

*sighs* this is such a difficult topic. i really do think that people on both sides should be more tolerant, rather than insulting each other. why are people always making things so difficult? argh. it's quite obvious to me that the political situation and problems can not (and should not IMO) be changed and solved in the foreseeable future, so why fussing about things that one can't change?

besides, i've been pondering this question for a couple of years now, also by asking myself how i would see myself - chinese or taiwanese? the answer is... i have no idea.

let me explain... how could i be "truly" chinese, when i've never been to mainland china and knowing little to nothing about daily life (i'm not talking about politics, sightseeing or anything that can be looked up in a dictionary or some other book)? furthermore, it is quite inevitable that after such a long period of isolation on both sides taiwan and mainland china (and their people of course) have in some ways moved into different directions.

on the other hand, i don't see myself as a "true" taiwanese either. there are so many things in daily life, culture and everything else in taiwan that are distinctly chinese, not to mention the daily exposure and usage of mandarin. and even "taiwanese" i.e. hokkien and hakka are chinese dialects, so denying the chinese heritage of taiwan would be quite irrational and futile IMO. and like many other people, i certainly don't want either japanese or americans to rule taiwan. nor do i wish to see taiwan formally declaring independence from china at this stage and esp. not under the current government. AND so do a lot of other people living in taiwan, i should add, i.e. it's not as if everyone was supporting the current policy.

as for democracy... do you really think that it'd work in such a large country as the PRC at this stage? i think it'd be more likely that mainland china would crumble into lots of tiny souvereign states like russia / USSR. and who'd be in the position to provide a credible definition of a "good" and "right" democracy? the us government? george w. bush? europe? i don't think so.

so as you can see, i don't see the point in arguing about such matters, since there's clearly nothing to be done about the current situation. instead we should simply focus on what we have in common, try to cooperate (peacefully) and work harder until one day we might just be able to live our lives the way we want to and none of this will be an issue anymore. :wink2:

(i doubt that anyone's going to read this, but i had to say it anyway :shifty: )

[mitsui]

i agreed that there is noting we can really do about it
it is just such an annoying thing to hear most people say about how chinese people are like lower-class or something
sometimes i feel like punching them!

[natzo]

i'm just gonna butt in here. i've read all 14 pages though.

i was born in taiwan and i consider myself taiwanese. BUT, i wouldn't deny having chinese ancestors or chinese blood. if someone asks me what nationality/ethnicity i am, i would say taiwanese. but if they asked me if i'm chinese, i wouldn't deny it because that's just retarded. i might add that i'm taiwanese though.

i think it was chen shui bian who said that taiwan will join china only when it becomes as advanced as taiwan. places like beijing and shanghai are already as advanced or even more advanced, but the rest of the country's like living in poverty. i think he's a moron, but i actually agree with him this one time.

here's an article from timeasia:
By blocking Taiwan's entry into almost every international organization and isolating the island diplomatically, all the while threatening it with military action if it goes its own way, China allows itself to be painted as a neighborhood bully by Taiwan politicians looking to garner support from disaffected voters. For many on the island, the final straw was the SARS crisis early last year, when China blocked World Health Organization (WHO) officials from touching down in Taiwan. The upshot was that in the early days of the outbreak, hospital administrators had to rely on the Internet to find effective measures to control the spread of the virus on the island.
i just want to say that some people say that taiwan and china are the same. that we're "brothers". would you treat your brother like this?

thing is...i see people from hong kong calling themselves "cantonese" yet no one's complaining. i don't really want taiwan to completely break free from china because obvious taiwanese people have chinese roots. i think things are okay like this. if only china would allow taiwan to enter competitions as "taiwan" not "republic of taiwan".

[Lizzy]

i agree that hk, taiwan and china are all the same type of people
it is just that some people are ashamed to be called "chinese" apparently

and yes, it is stupid to unit all of them if they don't want to
but i think china is probably going to give up
seeing that USA will help taiwan if there is a war

I personally dont think China will give up!
In this newspaper i read said that China is even willing to give up the 2008 Olympics to fight and unite Taiwan back with China.
I also believe there is really no difference between being taiwanese and chinese, from the history i learnt taiwanese pple and chinese pple come from the same ancestors.
Also with the Taiwanese having a different language its might just be something like a dialect.
I am originally from Fujian province and in fujian they have different languages from mandrin
and we stil call ourselves chinese
Also Ming Nan a place in Fujian Province has the same language that the taiwanese speak and the people from Ming Nan call themselves Chinese.
The people who are not Asian are already confused about Asians being chinese,taiwanese... Why cant we just make their lives simpler?
Really I dont see a difference In Chinese pple and Taiwanese pple?
maybe by the difference in the culture but there are many different cultures in China and thoses pple still call themselves Chinese
We all have Black hair, Brown Eyes, Yellowish Skin, why cant we just unite?

[kewlpiggy88]

i'm not trying to be mean, but i think your argument about china and taiwan being the same people is kind of :oops: :

-then how about japanese and koreans? a lot of them came from china too, and you could say that they have black hair, brown eyes, yellowish skin, blahblahblah.

-and what about all the colonists who came from america? most all were from europe so maybe we could just make everyone's lives easier and call americans and europeans just europeans. it'll make it so much simpler.

just because people look the same and to make it simpler on non-asians is not a legitimate reason at all. i mean, maybe if china wasn't always threatening taiwan, then people who are citizens of taiwan would look favorably toward them, but since they're always restricting them and threatening them, obviously taiwan's not gonna be like, "okok, you win, we consent". they're gonna "fight" back and maybe this is just their form of fighting back.


and i really don't think taiwanese people are "renouncing" their heritage. they're only concerned about issues 100 years ago until now. my mom is pro-independence, but she loves watching those history dramas about china. so for all of those who say they dislike the fact that tw people reject their ancestry, that's really not the case.

[JianDan[Ai]]

There is a big difference. Japanese, Koreans and Chinese are all connected yes, but thats back thosands and thousands of years...from before there was ever a "china" or a "japan." The colonists in America and Europeans as well are a different story. They did not argue and say they were not english, they simply we're escaping persecution of religious/economical pressures and instability. And even so that was over 200 years ago.

In the case of Taiwan however, it is very different. Taiwan's connection to China is very clear, and most of its population moved to Taiwan from China within the last century or 2. The number of truly "aboriginal" people's on the island are in reality extremely small as compared to those whom have traceable links to china.

Taiwan itself is trying to distance itself from China, for economic, and polical reasons, as well as its own desire for independence. I do not feel Taiwan as a country should be denied these things, however its government now is not one which would be able to handle independence. As I've said may times before, just because a country holds an election, does not make it a democracy, much less if it is an election with so much corruption doubt hanging over it.

Politics aside, the other large problem are the people of Taiwan whom disregard their ethnicity. It is not a question of the color of your skin, eyes or hair as "Lizzy" mentioned. (Why don't all the people of the world unite then since we are the only species with 2 arms, 2 legs and walk upright?) I want to emphasize something very important about ethnicity. Nationality and Ethnicity are two different things. Nationality is where you are from. My nationality makes me an american. That does not mean I am blond, fat, arrogant, stupid, or rich as perhaps some of the american stereotpyes go. My Ethnicity however IS chinese.

This is the problem with Taiwan's culture as "Natzo" showed up above. The Taiwanese people claim
"Taiwanese" as both their Nationality and Ethnicity. Unless you are one of those few aboriginals, you cannot call yourself ethnically taiwanese. By creating this "new" ethnicity and denying their own past, that is what the mainlanders and others such as myself have a problem with.

My parents are from Taiwan, and I love the place, but that does not mean I can forget where we came from. If you moved away to another country for the rest of your life, does that change your ethnicity? Does it change where your parents came from? Would you start calling yourself something other than what you really are and disgrace your ancestors?

-edit-
keep in mind, just because you ethnically are chinese doesnt tie you to the chinese governement. It is childish to think that your ethnic association makes you a "commy" -_-

[babyxv]

Oh yeah since ur taking about tawainese people heard that these taiwanese men were selling some women on ebay...
can't believe do such a thing

this is actually pretty irrelevant from the rest of the posts here, but i kind of believe it. i went back to taiwan this summer and i saw a big advertisement posted on a tall building that had a picture of a pretty young woman, and it said something along the lines of "cute girls from *some.. country.. japan or something?* marry one and take her home today!". it was just so shocking.


i never really thought about if i wanted taiwan and china to unite.. and after reading one of chun li's posts, i realized i REALLY DON'T. they're just way too different.. trying to compromise if they DO unite would cause even more problems, i think.

[kewlpiggy88]

you know, i was thinking...

on the box for jay's qi li xiang album, he talks about not wanting to go to war. at first i thought it was very general and directed to all of mankind. but he could also be talking about a war between china and taiwan? just a thought; what do you guys think?

[JianDan[Ai]]

Jay has always been very proud of his heritage. I dont know as to if he calls himself "chinese" or "taiwanese" for his nationality, but he always in general is proud to be a "hua ren" and at his "the one" concerts i have a video clip of him saying things like "since we are all hua ren, lets stick together, and keep this time for ourselves" or something like that. So I think it would make sense that this is what Jay believes. I mean he works throughtout taiwan and china as well as other parts of asia doing his mvs, giving concerts, making guest appearances etc, so I think he will definetly be able to appreciate all hua ren and see how despite our "differences" as mainlanders, and people that live on the island, we are all hua ren.

[wonnage]

China and taiwan are irrevocably linked because Taiwan is a center of electronics manufacturing. I would know, the place i work at the warehouse is filled with boxes labeled "made in taiwan". Open them up though, and where are all the parts made? Everything under $3.00 is made in china, exported to taiwan, and put together on circuit boards. OK, maybe it's a bit of a generalization, but pretty much any industry that depends on cheap parts is going to get them from china. You can bet that if taiwan ever gained independence against china's wishes then they'd have to find some other place to import stuff from that isn't across a tiny channel of water.

It's not going to happen, it's bad for business, people just like to complain. I think for the forseeable future it's going to stay like this, taiwan making periodic speeches about independence and china trying to quash them.

[JianDan[Ai]]

The economic situation I think will play a very small role in this at all. Either way, China and Taiwan need each other economically. Taiwan more than China, but still, they will most likely despite whatever happens will not throw away their economic relations.

So while, yes it ties them together, but then isnt every country that has economic relations to another tied to them as well? I dont wanna be harsh, but its "fei hua" to say they are tied due to their economic dependency on each other. =/

[wonnage]

There you go, if they need each other economically why split in the first place? China is loosening, capitalism is gaining a firm hold. One main problem is the amount of corruption, having friends in high places is required for any large business. You can see the light at the end of the tunnel, so why turn around?

[JianDan[Ai]]

Haha, you would think they would stay together for that reason, but people's pride and sometimes ignorance can be a very strong driving force. For example, a similiar, yet very different case is going on in Israel. Its more of control over "holy land" and so all sorts of ethnic groups and killing and murdering each other for that cause. When you think about it though, that plot of land is the same as any other plot of land, so why are they arguing? Its not like there is gold or oil in that land.

Because that lands means something special to them. Just like to the Mainlanders, they feel that Taiwan is Chinese land, and that people are chinese people, so they see no reason for a separation. The value Taiwan very much. As for Taiwan, they value independence. They want that more than anything else, and they want to distance themselves from the "commies" -_-;; To them, independence is worth more than anything else (apparently since their governement can't seem to do anything right except make idiots of themselves and waste money trying to prove they are different than china -_-;;;)

[kewlpiggy88]

just a sort of random question that somewhat relates to the issue. are south korea and north korea considered two separate countries? or are they one?

[JianDan[Ai]]

They are 2 separate countries and no one desputes that. The north is one of the few communist countries left in the world. There is a lot of tension between them, and in general the north doesnt like the south, and the south doesnt like the north =/

[sourhotsoup]

there is a difference between a whole different language...and dialect. the taiwanese dialect (mi nan yu) is a DIALECT. just as cantonese is also a dialect. The only actual natives of taiwan are what they call the 'yuan zhu ming'. they are of pacific islander/melanesian decent. The taiwanese claim they are the original people because they were there before the KMT fled there. It's sort of like the White people claiming they are the original and first people of America...pushing the NATIVE Americans aside, and making everyone else that came after feel like outsiders...foreigners. We are all Chinese. Heritage. Imagine your ancestors turning in their graves somewhere in mainland china because you deny that your fathers' fathers once upon a time lived there. If you want to claim independence that's one thing...denying your heritage is just ignorant.

sorry...i don't really have anyone in mind when i'm saying 'you'. just sounding off.

i'm not trying to be mean, but i think your argument about china and taiwan being the same people is kind of :oops: :

-then how about japanese and koreans? a lot of them came from china too, and you could say that they have black hair, brown eyes, yellowish skin, blahblahblah.

-and what about all the colonists who came from america? most all were from europe so maybe we could just make everyone's lives easier and call americans and europeans just europeans. it'll make it so much simpler.

as a matter of fact...americans do tell of their origins. don't you hear people who say..i'm part irish, part spanish? Or Italian-German. If you ask them, they'll tell you where their ancestors came from.

[vicks]

ok silly me.. i didn't read through all 16 pages... but i plan to stay away from all political and religious topics for obvious reasons anyway. i'm gonna ask an educational question. my friend did a research paper on the taiwanese language (or dialect.. whichever you prefer to call it) and in tracing the history, she said china as a country is actually made up of a lot of different types of people.. so it's not really one unified race. anyone know anything about that.. or if if it's already been discussed, point me to a post #?

and just as side question, .. so is this suppose to be about whether taiwan can be independent from china or is this about race and ethnicity issues.. cuz i think they're very different discussions. and why is china making such a big deal about taiwan being independent? it's a tiny little island!

[kewlpiggy88]

there is a difference between a whole different language...and dialect. the taiwanese dialect (mi nan yu) is a DIALECT. just as cantonese is also a dialect. The only actual natives of taiwan are what they call the 'yuan zhu ming'. they are of pacific islander/melanesian decent. The taiwanese claim they are the original people because they were there before the KMT fled there. It's sort of like the White people claiming they are the original and first people of America...pushing the NATIVE Americans aside, and making everyone else that came after feel like outsiders...foreigners. We are all Chinese. Heritage. Imagine your ancestors turning in their graves somewhere in mainland china because you deny that your fathers' fathers once upon a time lived there. If you want to claim independence that's one thing...denying your heritage is just ignorant.

sorry...i don't really have anyone in mind when i'm saying 'you'. just sounding off.


as a matter of fact...americans do tell of their origins. don't you hear people who say..i'm part irish, part spanish? Or Italian-German. If you ask them, they'll tell you where their ancestors came from.

i was just saying how she was kind of being a lil general and i made a general statement back to show how it wasn't a very correct statement.

and as i said in the same post, i REALLY don't think they're denying their heritage. i really really really do not think this is the case. i think right now they're talking about nationality. i mean, saying "i'm taiwanese" doesn't mean you're rejecting your background. saying you're taiwanese just specifies that you live in the country of taiwan (or a dominion of china for those who might complain) or your parents are from there or grandparents, etc. as macdawn said earlier, she will say she's singaporean, even though her heritage/ethnicity is chinese. it's the same with the people who say they're taiwanese. i don't know anyone who calls themselves taiwanese and is rejecting their chinese heritage. unless you give me a specific example. i just don't see what's wrong by calling yourself taiwanese? or taiwanese chinese?

okie, forgive me for my ignorance and lack of education, but north korea is communist, south korea is a republic and they're two separate countries. i'm assuming they have the same culture, language, and food. all i remember from world history is that they got split or something and then there was a war in the 1950s with china helping north koreans.

china is communist, tw is a republic/democracy (laugh all you want). they have same language, similar foods, same culture. so then why can't china and tw be two countries?

this is probably a very ignorant question with my uneducated eyes, so please no bashing.

[SimpleBlackHumor89]

like some ppl say that taiwanese ppl came from china, that is true, but if u think about it, everyone came from africa, cos thats' where the first humans originated from.. so like in terms of ethnicity, yes, there should be a difference.. cos what seperates russia from german ppl. etc.. they both kinda look the same. but they hav their own language and cultures.

i think china should just leave taiwan alone, cos both are doin fine without each other. china, doesnt even act like it owns taiwan. it let taiwan gain it's independence.. so... that's china's fault

[JianDan[Ai]]

Actually, the only reason china cant take any military action is because of the US. The US would love an opportunity like that to get their military into china, and possibly take down the the last major communist county in the world (they arent even that "communiust" anymore, they have adapted to many democratic and capitalist ideals)

As for language and culture, that isnt the only thing that separates countries. I mean then how are Texas and Hawaii in the same country? Their accents are not the same and their culture is COMPLETLY different. Or how about canada? The offical languages are French and English, but that doesnt divide them. Taiwanese again is just a dialect of Chinese. It uses chinese characters, chinese grammar, and is derived from chinese. It is no different than cantonese, or shanghai-ese or any other chinese dialect. Culture wise, Taiwan has been greatly affect by Japanese occupation as well as other foreign cultures such as the US. However, that should not separate them from China. California is greatly affect by mexican and its large hispanic population in ways that people on the east coast of the US could never imagine.

So keep in mind countries are not split by languages and culture.

[kewlpiggy88]

so what about north and south korea? can anyone answer my question? are they trying to reunify? i know they're trying to be more friendly but there doesn't seen to be a lotta news over reunification over one korea...at least not recently.

[linny]

so what about north and south korea? can anyone answer my question? are they trying to reunify? i know they're trying to be more friendly but there doesn't seen to be a lotta news over reunification over one korea...at least not recently.
It's pretty much always up in the air about North and South Korea. It's been that way for fifty years, and I don't think the situation will be changing any time too soon. Certainly, it would make sense if the two countries were trying to work together; they do need each other, even if only for business and economic purposes. Otherwise, there's never a lot of news.

okie, forgive me for my ignorance and lack of education, but north korea is communist, south korea is a republic and they're two separate countries. i'm assuming they have the same culture, language, and food. all i remember from world history is that they got split or something and then there was a war in the 1950s with china helping north koreans.

china is communist, tw is a republic/democracy (laugh all you want). they have same language, similar foods, same culture. so then why can't china and tw be two countries?

It's not purely about culture, language and food. Politics, government, and businesses also have a big role in why a countries would split. As my limited understanding would have it, North and South Korea have differences in mainly economics (and how their ideal of a government to a lesser degree).

And it wouldn't be good to bring up North and South Korea as separate countries since they're still technically at war with each other and while they are two separate countries now, no one can be sure what will happen in the future. North and South could work to reunify in the future. Who knows?

As for why Taiwan and China can't be separate countries, I guess you'd have to look back 15 pages of so to find your own answer.

[amdawn]

how are people dealing with the national pride when it comes to the olympics.? are people dividing their devotion among the chinese or taiwanese teams . or even those in the u.s, are they dividing their loyalty between the u.s. and chinese teams if they happen to face each other in competition? i like to see the chinese more represented in sports excellence. at least it erases the inferiority complex that asians are below par in physical activity.

[scarletwillow]

North and South Korea will reunite in 100 years.
After the death of Kim Jong Il, due to there being no immediate successor, the regime will crumble.

Besides, most South Koreans want to reunite.
In fact, I suspect that many South Korean government officials want to reunite.

Why?
Because the North will soon have nuclear capability.
And if they reunite, the South will have that power too. Simple as that.


As for China and Taiwan, it's inevitable.
As Alby (JDA) said, the only reason Taiwan still exists is because of the USA. And the USA plays Taiwan like a puppet. I could see that even if China does perform a fullscale invasion, the USA would not wage war on China, but would instead have a huge diplomatic battle and perhaps place sanctions.

In any case, I'm not comfortable with Taiwan being independent. The pure idea of it is ridiculous-- Taiwan's roots are in shadow, and I'm not fond of that. It's grown into something much better over the years, but nationalists who love its "past" are just stupid. Not only were the Kuo Min Tang absolute traitors to the Chinese people, but they were corrupt beyond all belief.

As I said, long live the Chinese Republic. Rest in peace, Sun Yat Sen.
Burn in fucking hell, Chiang Kai Shek. He was China's Stalin before Mao was even here.

[JianDan[Ai]]

Personally, Taiwan being independent doesnt bother me as much as them trying to distance themselves from their true roots. Insisting on being "Taiwanese" over "Chinese." The only thing I have against their independence is that they have proven they can't handle it yet. With a shady election and all...it doesnt give me any peace at mind that they will be able to take care of themselves for long.

[iphei]

how are people dealing with the national pride when it comes to the olympics.? are people dividing their devotion among the chinese or taiwanese teams . or even those in the u.s, are they dividing their loyalty between the u.s. and chinese teams if they happen to face each other in competition? i like to see the chinese more represented in sports excellence. at least it erases the inferiority complex that asians are below par in physical activity.

It's kinda hard? But I'm finding more and more often that I want China to win instead of the US 'cause I'm sorry, but our nation is def. getting too cocky. I mean, we've gotten rid of all our allies (except Britain, but that's only 'cause Tony Blair is the Prime Minister, the people don't actually support the war). :rolleyes: However, I'm not really split between the different Chinese teams, yay if any of them medal, gold's even better! :)

The whole idea of Taiwan splitting from China has always made me iffy. I've never understood why they are allowed to have a President if they are under China's rule. Futhermore, it also baffles me why HK was separate from China in the Olympics? (Even though HK has no intentions of splitting from China and whatnot). I guess I'm just not all that great on this politics stuff. =\

[scarletwillow]

China allows HK to keep their Olympic team. I don't know why HK does it, cuz China's team is good :P

We're not the mules of the world anymore.

[pterodactyl]

i'm uncomfortable with both notions.. reunion because china seems greedy and they're still on the communist system.. and independence because it would make taiwan vulnerable to a lot of economic and political risks. america takes advantage of the sticky relations between taiwan and china. and it seems taiwan is geographically at a disadvantage.

[amdawn]

in the last few months, there were several non-violent street protests in hong kong calling for democracy and voice in election of their local officials. there were denouncements that china was restricting hong kong constitutional development. i'm wondering where these people were when they were under british control? did hong kong have any representation under britian? did they did call for democracy while under 156 years of colonial rule of britain? it does not appear that until 1994 that hong kong was permitted to hold its first full democratic for legislative bodies. why is china fully demonized for witholding democracy? if anyone has more information on this, i would like to know.

[scarletwillow]

in the last few months, there were several non-violent street protests in hong kong calling for democracy and voice in election of their local officials. there were denouncements that china was restricting hong kong constitutional development. i'm wondering where these people were when they were under british control? did hong kong have any representation under britian? did they did call for democracy while under 156 years of colonial rule of britain? it does not appear that until 1994 that hong kong was permitted to hold its first full democratic for legislative bodies. why is china fully demonized for witholding democracy? if anyone has more information on this, i would like to know.

Because the world is a pool of bias and stupidity.
Great Britain should be ashamed for keeping Hong Kong after WWII, even after it entered the modern age. It's all a load of bullshit.

A country getting its independence isn't just an application process.
I'd like to see what Americans would say if suddenly one day a bunch of states decided to secede, or something equally crazy. Oh, I know... a Civil War. And the United States would take back the territory and screw the traitorous states over.

The same goes to China and Taiwan. Bad child needs a spanking.

[Shay]

Being "taiwanese" or "chinese" is all a label and a name. Who can say what defines you to be either one of them? If you wanna be called one of them (or both), I personally dont think someone else has any right to disagree with that.

Im was born in Taiwan..so i call myself Taiwanese! I've lived in Australia for a huge chunk of my life...so i call myself Australian! Is there anything wrong with that? Like a lot of people, I'm not saying that I deny that I have ancestors from China at all.

People have to understand that Taiwan has not exactly had a peaceful relationship with China in the past... And if you look at it, it's not exactly easy for a lot of people just to "let go" of that history. It doesn't make it any better with the current threat against Taiwan from the Chinese government either. I personally feel that if there is a referendum in Taiwan and it shows that a large population of people wish for the country to be declared independent, the Chinese government does not have a right to deny that. Taiwan's destiny can only be decided by the millions of people living on the island.

By the way, I've seen a few posts hating on taiwan or china and i'm sure a lot of people find it offensive and just rude, especially when it comes to generalisations or info that isnt' properly researched. I'm just showing my opinions...it's been very interesting reading those of others. (By the way, I've tried to do the best with the info i know. Feel free to disagree or point out anything i've said wrong.) Take care

[scarletwillow]

Being "taiwanese" or "chinese" is all a label and a name. Who can say what defines you to be either one of them? If you wanna be called one of them (or both), I personally dont think someone else has any right to disagree with that.

Im was born in Taiwan..so i call myself Taiwanese! I've lived in Australia for a huge chunk of my life...so i call myself Australian! Is there anything wrong with that? Like a lot of people, I'm not saying that I deny that I have ancestors from China at all.

People have to understand that Taiwan has not exactly had a peaceful relationship with China in the past... And if you look at it, it's not exactly easy for a lot of people just to "let go" of that history. It doesn't make it any better with the current threat against Taiwan from the Chinese government either. I personally feel that if there is a referendum in Taiwan and it shows that a large population of people wish for the country to be declared independent, the Chinese government does not have a right to deny that. Taiwan's destiny can only be decided by the millions of people living on the island.

By the way, I've seen a few posts hating on taiwan or china and i'm sure a lot of people find it offensive and just rude, especially when it comes to generalisations or info that isnt' properly researched. I'm just showing my opinions...it's been very interesting reading those of others. (By the way, I've tried to do the best with the info i know. Feel free to disagree or point out anything i've said wrong.) Take care

I respect your views, but I disagree completely.
China has the absolute authority to disapprove of Taiwanese independence, and even take military action if needed.

As I mentioned, for examples, just look at...
1. The United States Civil War
2. The Kurds

Would you give up a large portion of your land to some people who want to form their own country? I sure wouldn't. I'd fight to get it back.

I state again:
The only reason China is viewed as the "bad guys" is because they're "communist". A people do not have the right to simply declare independence.
The second the communists took over, China was the People's Republic of China. Without looking too far into the future, that was what the people wanted at the time, and that was what they got. Chiang Kai-Shek was a traitor to our people.

To tell the truth, I wouldn't be fazed at the possibility of a war. Hell, I'd go fight in it.

[amdawn]

wow, scarletwillow, you sound like my father sitting nightly in front of the television, with furor in his voice as he denounces taiwan and their ideas for independence. in a way his anger is amplified over mild taiwanese assimilation with japanese culture. he remembers the massacre and pillage of chinese people by japanese invaders. so taiwanese association and fascination with japan is extremely upsettting. i doubt he will be able to forgive nor forget because the hatred is so deep and invasive in him.
i try to put that aside because generations of people of a country are different from those of the preceddessors who committed the crime. somehow one must move on and forge new relationships. of course, it is disappointing that the japanese government have refused to apologize or provided reparations for their war crimes. it is a sore point.
i have taiwanese friends; unfortunately i would never discuss political sensitive material with them. it is true that china is villianized because they are 'communist' even though really their system is evolving into a capitalistic state. china will continue to evolve; they are still working out kinks in their system. in way i think china is just an overprotective parents who clamps too tightly on their children freedom; they don't understand that loosening their reins is better for everyone's growth.

[taiwanguonanhai]

Honestly....I dont think that all of us butting heads on this topic is worthwhile. This is such a no shades of gray topic. Either we see independence or we see reuinification. The points being made are just being recycled as well.

Taiwan has been China's sore spot for 50 years and things are starting to get painful between them. However, this doesnt mean that the issue will be resolved any time soon. Sure 2020 is 'the time' but that's just like those campaign posters saying 'free the mainland'. Just empty words.

No matter what we do we will not be able to affect the outcome unless we are A)serving in the TW or PRC armies or B)become politicians of those nations.

I think however, if China wants Taiwan, they better act quick because the life on Taiwan is becoming more Taiwanized(i.e mix of the taiwan culture and ancient chinese one). If China waits too long, the people of Taiwan will become more immersed in this life and Taiwan gov't. will have more chance to make changes towards becoming ever so slightly more sovereign.

Honestly though, I think that those of you who argue that the new 'Taiwanese identity' is completely denying Chinese ancestry do not know Taiwan very well. In school, Ancient China history is still taught and traditional Han customs are still followed in life, just now there is the addition of a Taiwanese culture as well. I think you see the promotion of 'Taiwanese identity' as total denial of Chinese identity in Taiwan which is far from true.

[azn_babii_gurl]

i think china should just leave taiwan alone, cos both are doin fine without each other. china, doesnt even act like it owns taiwan. it let taiwan gain it's independence.. so... that's china's fault

i totalli agree!!

wow.. pretty hectic stuff here.. i coodnt bring myself to read all the replies coz i know i would get angry at reading them :glug:

what ticks me off is how people ARE ALWAYS ALWAYS COMPARING the chinese and the taiwanese.. it gets so hella irritating.

i was born in taiwan and i consider myself taiwanese. taiwanese ppl originated from china..can never deny that. i suppose chinese and taiwanese speak the same language but there are some terms thats different or the taiwanese dont use.

this "bitterness" between the chinese and the taiwanese gets so overaggerated (how ever u spell it.) its been going on ever since mankind, literally.

i guess taiwan is never gonna be considered an independent country by everyone. but whatever ive got tw pride.. dats all that matters aint it? :wave:

i dunno. this is turning out to b a pretty useless post but yeh lol :dry:

[Shay]

Haha, well, it's still good to see other ppl's point of view and stuff...and to see that i'm not alone in wanting taiwan's independence!!

Taiwan is ALREADY independent in making its own decisions... But few countries recognize Taiwan and it's unable to join world organizations (WHO, UN) as well as still being officially known as "ROC".. And at the olympics, we were "chinese taipei"...what the?

But I don't want war between the two countries! And I don't know if war is worth it... most countries are afraid to support Taiwan too. I heard China said they are willing to give up their economy and the 2008 olympics to keep the 'motherland' united. How possible do u guys think the war is?

[stargirl]

Shay Beijing is taking this very seriously and mainland is being very aggressive. I think there is no way china is going to give up on Taiwan. Unless Taiwan just gives in which could be smart I think the chances of china taking serious action are very high.
Personally I feel that everyone deserves to have their say and if the people of Taiwan don’t want to reunify with china than... well I just don’t think it's fair that china the bigger and stronger is bullying Taiwan into it.... but do they have much choice. And I don’t think Taiwan will have much of a chance with further development for a while if Taiwan is under Beijing rule... china is a developing country yes but boy it has a long way to go... I live here trust me! With a communist government running a capitalist country they publicly declare that china is headed for democracy, which Taiwan already has and will lose if reunification goes ahead... it’s like taking a step back.
I don’t think im in much of a position to say this being neither Chinese nor Taiwanese but it is something I am interested and concerned about.
I really don’t know what to think, for example I am Australian and if south Australia *which has been part of Australia since the beginning suddenly wanted to split and become their own country... well I guess I would feel kind of angry about it.
As for calling the citizens of Taiwan Taiwanese or Chinese well it’s difficult. Can’t people just call themselves what they like? It’s like my ancestors sailed over from England 200 years ago and I eat the same food and look the same as British people but I don’t call myself British. Im Australian because I was born and have grown up in Australia.
But as i said before im in the position where yes i can have an unbiased opinion but i probably have no place to comment!

[ropgurl]

wwoah..u've got a pretty gay friend there...what does she mean by different lanuage?! we speak the same thing..mandrain...go borrow some books for her man...sry im really agasint ppl who are like that...

there is a chinese dialect called taiwanese. mandarin is just another chinese dialect, one more widely spread and known. in fact, there are so many different chinese dialects it's hard to keep track of them all.
i was born in taiwan. but not raised there so i dont know too much about taiwanese and all. but i see taiwanese people as chinese people. and i see taiwan as a separate country from china. thats just my view. a view of someone who doesnt know the politics of taiwan and all. heh. -_-||

[kewlpiggy88]

i got this from my sister...

Republicans back Taiwan

POLICY STATEMENT: Despite having several nice things to say about Beijing, the party adopted a platform that affirms the US' pledge to defend Taiwan if it is attacked
By Charles Snyder
STAFF REPORTER IN WASHINGTON
Wednesday, Sep 01, 2004, Page 1

The US Republican Party on Monday adopted a platform that delivered a strong endorsement of close relations between Washington and Taipei, and reiterated its pledge of four years ago to come to Taiwan's aid "in accordance with the Taiwan Relations Act" if Taiwan is attacked by China.

The platform, which was approved on Monday by the party presidential nominating convention in New York, recognized that the US maintains a "one-China" policy, and endorsed the Bush administration policy of opposition to any moves to change the status quo in the Taiwan Strait.

The platform contains an extended commitment to support of and friendship with Taiwan.

"Republicans applaud President [George W.] Bush and the Republican Congress for honoring our nation's promises to the people of Taiwan, a longstanding friend of the United States and a genuine democracy," the platform says.

"Taiwan deserves America's strong support, including the timely sale of defensive arms to enhance Taiwan's security," it adds.

The document noted that the US government policy is "that there is one China, as reflected in the three communiques and the Taiwan Relations Act. America opposes any unilateral decision by either China or Taiwan to change the status quo."

It also recognizes that US policy is based on the principle that "there must be no use for force by China against Taiwan. We deny the right of Beijing to impose its rule on the free Taiwanese people."

The party demanded that all cross-strait issues "must be resolved peacefully and must be agreeable to the people of Taiwan."

If China attacks, "then the United States will respond appropriately in accordance with the Taiwan Relations Act. America will help Taiwan defend itself," the platform says.

With the exception of the admonition against changes in the status quo, much of the wording of the document copies directly the text of the party's 2000 platform.

That might have been at the root of confusion in Washington over the weekend, when e-mails reached many Taiwan correspondents presenting the 2000 platform as the draft of this year's policy document, after the new document was approved by the party's platform committee.

Stories about the "new" platform were published in several Chinese-language Taiwanese newspapers before the error was discovered. The source of the error appeared to be the party's official convention Web site, which retained the old document in its platform page without dating the document. Platforms are not binding but remain party policy until changed.

The GOP policy statement is in sharp contrast to the Democratic Party platform adopted in late July, which contained only a passing reference to Taiwan.

[SimpleBlackHumor89]

that's the only good thing about bush, he's willing to help taiwan , because it believes that taiwan should be an independent country. and it should..

but wasnt everything going fine between those two for a couple of years?? why does china all of a suddent want taiwan back. is it runnin outa space for its' 1.3 billion population??

[stargirl]

Well I don’t really think they are going to be able to exactly move half of Chinas population over to Taiwan in any case simpleblackhumour :rolleyes: Economically it would be beneficial for china to have control over Taiwan but America has money invested in Taiwan so they of course will stick up for Taiwan. Also as Taiwan use to officially be part of china and the Chinese people still say that its part of china they think Taiwan should be or rather is rightfully part of china. In fact I get reprimanded when if I say Jay is Taiwanese because he is CHINESE apparently though I usually just mean that he was born and raised in Taiwan. I cannot say that Mt Everest is in Tibet because it's in CHINA and Tibet is just another part of China, which it is now I guess but it didn’t use to be like that.
I can’t imagine how the people of Taiwan who want to keep democracy feel. China is such a huge force against such a small country. I’m sure it’s reassuring for them that America is willing to help them. Hmm that makes me wonder... in some places of Indonesia the top part of Australia is marked on their maps as Indonesian territory and they teach that it is part of Indonesia in Indonesian schools. That’s kind of scary really, I wonder if America would step in for Australia if Indonesia decided to take back what they think is rightfully theirs. Oh the world.... oh the world

[timeless]

No one replied in this thread for a few days, but I'm going to add my two cents.

I've always been born with the idea that Taiwan is independent, and that it isn't a part of China. I've always supported this. I think China wants to keep Taiwan because China needs Taiwan economically. China has a strong military to keep Taiwan fearful if they ever become independent.

I believe that China should let go of Taiwan, because when you go to Taiwan, you would see big differences between there and China. The way they speak Mandarin in the two places are different. People in China also speak Cantonese, Taiwanese people speak Taiwanese.

I think it's also ridiculous that China wouldn't let Taiwan go into the Olympics as Taiwan, instead Chinese Taipei. They wouldn't even let them use their own flags, or use their own official anthem when they won medals. Taiwan and China are as different as the US and Canada, and believe me, there's actually a big difference once you look closely or when you visit the places.

[jAYcHOus#1 fAN]

i dont really get why taiwanese ppl dont want to be chinese...they are chinese like really...and china is so strong and big and all...so iono why...but i guess they hav rights too

[taiwanguonanhai]

i dont really get why taiwanese ppl dont want to be chinese...they are chinese like really...and china is so strong and big and all...so iono why...but i guess they hav rights too

I think people get carried away with the whole Taiwanese people dont want to be Chinese thing. When people hear Taiwanese identity, they think Taiwanese as an ethnicity. Sure there are people who can actually claim Taiwanese ethnicity(im one of them), but for the most part, they mean a Taiwanese culture/society/nationality. What is it?
A mix of the Chinese Fujian heritage, aboriginal customs, and the "Ri Ben Feng".

Well....and people in Taiwan are bothered that CHina forces Taiwan into corners and tries to beat the crap out of it politically. That's why they aren't so adament about joining back up.

Its a complicated situation.....hows that? hheh :wink2:

[iphei]

I believe that China should let go of Taiwan, because when you go to Taiwan, you would see big differences between there and China. The way they speak Mandarin in the two places are different. People in China also speak Cantonese, Taiwanese people speak Taiwanese.
And yes, people in China also speak Cantonese, are you saying that Canton should break away from China now?! And for that matter, there's also a million different Chinese dialects that exist in China. So would it be right for EVERYONE to just break away just because their culture is different from like Beijing or Shanghai (Shanghai also has it's own dialect!).

I think it's also ridiculous that China wouldn't let Taiwan go into the Olympics as Taiwan, instead Chinese Taipei. They wouldn't even let them use their own flags, or use their own official anthem when they won medals. Taiwan and China are as different as the US and Canada, and believe me, there's actually a big difference once you look closely or when you visit the places.
Well, in an effort to create more nationalism China tried. China isn't ready to just let Taiwan free as it is still Chinese territory. If they let Taiwan go on this matter than it's like saying "Okay, I give up. You may establish your independence without opposition from us [China]."

[timeless]

And yes, people in China also speak Cantonese, are you saying that Canton should break away from China now?! And for that matter, there's also a million different Chinese dialects that exist in China. So would it be right for EVERYONE to just break away just because their culture is different from like Beijing or Shanghai (Shanghai also has it's own dialect!).
Sorry if it seemed that I thought that every place with it's own dialect should go away from China. I was just saying the different dialects were an example of the different cultures China and Taiwan have.

I think letting Taiwan seperate from China would be a benefit to not only the Taiwanese people, but to Chinese as well. Taiwanese people have been an annoyance to the Chinese, because they have always had disputes about leaving China and gaining independence. If they let go of Taiwan, there wouldn't be the disputes anymore, and they wouldn't have to watch each other 24/7. There would be less bloodshed, like the 228 Incident, that would cause Taiwan to be more outraged. If China would let go of Taiwan, maybe it could start a more peaceful age for all of them to live as allies, and not enemies.

[jjfgirl]

Also as Taiwan use to officially be part of china and the Chinese people still say that its part of china they think Taiwan should be or rather is rightfully part of china. In fact I get reprimanded when if I say Jay is Taiwanese because he is CHINESE apparently though I usually just mean that he was born and raised in Taiwan.

alright. number 1, taiwan was never "officially" part of china. i would love to read whatever book you read that out of/person who told you that. because that is WRONG. what happened is, Chiang Kai-Shek's Nationalist Party lost to Mao's Communist party in a civil war in china. Chiang and his army FLED to Taiwan. And then pretty much took it over and declared themselves the "official" China, recognized in the world as the Taiwan, Republic of China until the 1970s (i forget the exact year). Then all FORMAL ties with Taiwan, Republic of China were cut and mainland China, or THe People's Republic of China were recognized by the U.S. and the world. That is the real story. Prior to this, China didn't really give a damn about Taiwan. Now that Taiwan is economically wealthy and I'm not even going to go into discrepencies socially and educationally, China wants to claim it. In reality, I think Taiwan in general has a very sad history. Always somebody wanting to claim it and control it. [Like the Dutch and Japanese]. It is absolutely ridiculous that China thinks they have any claim to Taiwan. The dispute now is that the Nationalist Party [known as the KMT or KuoMingTang] wants eventual unification with China. The DPP, or the Democratic Progressive Party that the current president belongs to is pro-independence. Those are the two major political parties of Taiwan. Since Chen [the current president] recently got elected to a second term, the mainland is freaking out because they are certain that Chen will revise the constitution towards independence before 2008. And China has to behave itself before then, as the Olympics are to be held there.

Sorry if this bored you people to death [hopefully if you really don't care, you didn't bother reading it].. i just feel that the facts need to be set straight.

Taiwanese is both an ethnicity and a nationality. I am ethnically Chinese. But I have no ties to teh mainland/don't care to and I love Taiwan. In my opinion, this means that the best thing for Taiwan is to remain separate. I consider myself Taiwanese-American. THus, you are right when you call Jay Taiwanese because THAT IS WHAT HE IS. Thank you very much :D

Stargirl, I'm not attacking anything you said because you are pretty knowledgable and perceptive! Just thought you made a few points i wanted to go off of :wink2:

[kewlpiggy88]

jjfgirl - i'm totally with you, and those are pretty much the facts. besides, didn't china give up taiwan to the japanese at one point? i don't understand why they can't just leave that tiny little island alone. okok, i'm going to get major flames for that, but this is all online. whoopee! i love online debates for this very reason.

[taiwanguonanhai]

Let's add some kerosine to those flames shall we? :-)

When Japan was given Taiwan, it was give Taiwan indefinitely. Now, when Japan lost WW2, it had to give back all lands taken from China. However, Taiwan, legally, was no longer part of China, and when Japan signed some other treaty...I forget the name....it renounced claim of Taiwan without declaring who would get it. Legally speaking, Taiwan is not a part of China. Actually....I think at one point, the government offered to work things out in the Hague(?Spelling?) with China, but CHina refused knowing that it had no legal claims to Taiwan.

So yes, legally Taiwan is as free from China as Korea. But, since Taiwan was considered a part of China in history at very spaced out and random times, and the CCP was the successor government of China, it believes that it has all rights to Taiwan. They see it as, since Taiwan is operated by the ROC government, and the CCP is the true government of China, we, as the successors of China, should have Taiwan.

But then.....since when has legality ever run global politics? :rolleyes: Especially China's?

[freebird_brown]

ok, i agree with many of you who say that taiwan and china are very different. my family is taiwanese, but my parents live in china, and believe me, there are some huge differences between the two nations. history, language, religion and appearances may be very similar; but just walking down the streets of taiwan and china, anyone can tell that the culture is different.
second, i also agree that taiwan is very much its own country. it has been independent for decades. whether its "unofficially" china's or not, i think the fact that taiwan has been independent for so long should prove that it is very much independent.
third, i don't like the method that china is using to get taiwan back. forcing with military power isn't the way to unify anything. certainly there aren't many other things that china can do, but i don't think china should be such a baby to threaten when it wants something. grow up, china.
despite my views, i do not know whether taiwan should unify with china. maybe not this year or the next, but in the future, i think that maybe it would be better for both to unify. i cannot say because i don't know what will happen in this decade.

[visualize246]

China probably wants Taiwan because they're more modernized, have/HAD a good economy, etc. Taiwan most likely doesn't want to go back because they're afraid everything will be stymied by the authoritarian communists in China. Another reason is probably because many parts of China is still considered third world. Why would a "modernized" country want to be part of something underdeveloped? Personally, I don't think China will stay that way forever and I feel that if their economy booms and their development catches up (read: SHANGHAI) Taiwan will kiss some ass. (Like the Taiwanese companies already do in Shanghai).

This thread is getting to be REALLY controversial and everything, and I'm sure everyone is entitled to their opinion, as I am going to state my own opinion. Why does this whole thing have to be, YES I SIDE WITH CHINA and YES I SIDE WITH TAIWAN? I mean, people are always going to be debating on the issue and it really just pisses me off sometimes...its like a never ending thing. In reply to the quoted user's post, you can't assume Taiwan is going to probably "kiss some ass". That's pretty insulting to a lot of people who want Taiwan to be independent. But yes, its true that reports say China's economy is getting better. But still, do we have to keep arguing about this? I think this has gone way out of line from the original question asked.

Thanks for letting me voice my opinion :wave:

[xinerz]

alright. number 1, taiwan was never "officially" part of china. i would love to read whatever book you read that out of/person who told you that. because that is WRONG. what happened is, Chiang Kai-Shek's Nationalist Party lost to Mao's Communist party in a civil war in china. Chiang and his army FLED to Taiwan. And then pretty much took it over and declared themselves the "official" China, recognized in the world as the Taiwan, Republic of China until the 1970s (i forget the exact year). Then all FORMAL ties with Taiwan, Republic of China were cut and mainland China, or THe People's Republic of China were recognized by the U.S. and the world. That is the real story. Prior to this, China didn't really give a damn about Taiwan. Now that Taiwan is economically wealthy and I'm not even going to go into discrepencies socially and educationally, China wants to claim it. In reality, I think Taiwan in general has a very sad history. Always somebody wanting to claim it and control it. [Like the Dutch and Japanese]. It is absolutely ridiculous that China thinks they have any claim to Taiwan. The dispute now is that the Nationalist Party [known as the KMT or KuoMingTang] wants eventual unification with China. The DPP, or the Democratic Progressive Party that the current president belongs to is pro-independence. Those are the two major political parties of Taiwan. Since Chen [the current president] recently got elected to a second term, the mainland is freaking out because they are certain that Chen will revise the constitution towards independence before 2008. And China has to behave itself before then, as the Olympics are to be held there.

Sorry if this bored you people to death [hopefully if you really don't care, you didn't bother reading it].. i just feel that the facts need to be set straight.

Taiwanese is both an ethnicity and a nationality. I am ethnically Chinese. But I have no ties to teh mainland/don't care to and I love Taiwan. In my opinion, this means that the best thing for Taiwan is to remain separate. I consider myself Taiwanese-American. THus, you are right when you call Jay Taiwanese because THAT IS WHAT HE IS. Thank you very much :D

Stargirl, I'm not attacking anything you said because you are pretty knowledgable and perceptive! Just thought you made a few points i wanted to go off of :wink2:


wow, FLAMES FLAMES FLAMMMMMESSSS :rifle:

but i do agree with jjf~taiwan is it's own separate country and has it's own ethnicity and nationality. yeah, even tho i am 1/4 mainland, i'm still tied to island and consider myself Taiwanese-American (American Born Taiwanese~or American Born Island) taiwan even has it's own little dialect and languages~i think we should be entitled to independence along side of Chen and the DDP.

i get into alotta trouble at home with my mom cuz well, the 1/4 of me (which would be 1/2 of her, oo boy, my math izz awesome yo :tongue: ) well, her dad's from china. he followed chiang kai-shek over to taiwan as a medical doctor (yeah, he's old as crap). my mother's for the KMT~which as jjf pointed out is for total united Mainland together. my father on the other hand, is DDP because (as he says) he's educated and the fact that he's a professor, well, yeah.


but along with visualize, this thread really is getting kinda controversial. everyone is entitled to their own opinions and i'm sure they have backup to their allegations and stuff like that too. just like everyone else, thnx for letting me express my own opinions

[kewlpiggy88]

hey xinerz, you're kinda like me, because my dad was born in taiwan, but his parents fled china. but my mom's side is ben shen ren.

[Chun Li]

I've lived in Taiwan half my life and now I'm in China.

All I have to say that, the history now is mostly irrelevant. The main point that should justify the separation is that the cultures are now completely different. It's almost not like one people at all.
Major riots would happen if they were pushed together -- its like making the French live with Americans... mutually can't stand each other.

[kewlpiggy88]

can u elaborate chun li? because i've never been to china and i can't exactly justify my reasons for thinking that the two are different if i've never even been there.

[jjfgirl]

can u elaborate chun li? because i've never been to china and i can't exactly justify my reasons for thinking that the two are different if i've never even been there.

i was tempted to say something really biased and mean in reply to that, but i think i have to restrain myself :D but yes, this thread is getting extremely controversial. just reading some of it makes me upset. but i'm glad to have some of you girls agreeing/understanding where i'm coming from :wink2: ok. i'm biting my tongue before i say more things.

[Hanzo]

Okay after reading 5 pages of this thread. I feel I really want to express my opinion on this issue as well.

First of all, I'm a chinese-Canadian. Born in Fujian China, but have lived in Canada for the past
12 years. So I have only vague memories of Fuzhou, which i've visited 4 times.
Currently I'm doing my internship for computer engineering in Taiwan. So after staying here
for 1 month. I want to make some points clear. But I might be bias at times.

Here is a little history I know. The main dialect people speak here is Min nan hua ("Min" is shorten for fujian province, "nan" is south, therefore Min Nan hua refers to dialect in southern fujian.) Min nan hua being their primary dialect because a lot of the population in taiwan immigrated there from Min nan during the end of the Ming Dynasty when the Manchu people took over china and forced many of the Ming loyalists to flee to Taiwan. Hundreds of thousands fled. Ever heard of Zheng Chen Gong retrieving Taiwan from the Spanish I think...? well yeah many Fujian ppl went migrated to Taiwan during that era which was 600 years ago, therefore bringing with them the Min nan hua they spoke. Yes there are aborginals in Taiwan. They are not the "Han" people. They are of different race, you know how there is 50+ races in China, "Han" being the biggest one which is like 95% of the people. So yes, the current population in Taiwan is mainly still originated from mainland China. Another huge wave of migration came after the defeat of the nationalists in 1949. Many high end nationalists officials went to Taiwan along with their family and some soldiers. Like someone already said, Taiwan polictians are 70% from the decendents of the nationalists that went to taiwan in 1949. I'm pretty sure my company, UMC, which is the 2nd biggest high tech company in Taiwan, the three head CEO, and executives are "wai sheng ren" meaning foreign province people. The ones that came to taiwan in 1949 era. These people and their descendents live mainly in Taipei and control majority of the wealth in Taiwan with their huge land holdings and businesses. As oppose to people in Tainan which have been there for generations and are mainly farmers. K, nuff history.

Now about how Taiwanese people see themselves and see mainland china. Yes I do get a feeling that Taiwanese people consider themselves superior to those of mainland chinese people. Some may even say they'd rather be part of Japan than to unite with Mainland China. Why? probably they believe that they live a better life style but I dont think that's entirely true. I've been to Taipei, Shanghai and Beijing. Beijing just last month with my girlfriend. And I believe the modern beijing has nothing to lose when compared to Taipei. Beijing is fucking awesome, if you are rich, that place is just plain sweet, lots of shopping, high class restaurants, clubs, malls, theatres, historical places, you name it Beijing has it. And with the rise of the YAP(young asian professionals) in beijing, there are many middle class young people that dress nice, party hard, living the life that i have in Canada. Taipei is has a lot of that too but the thing is Taipei is so damn cramed everything is so packed, it can't expand anymore... So I dont get why people in taiwan look down on mainland chiense people. People in beijing and shanghai and many other coastal cities are just as "hip" as people living in Taiwan. I think that many sterotypical taiwanese still think all mainland people are ghetto and old school but you know, there are richer ppl in mainland than in Taiwan now. I saw on Taiwan news
that some rich wife spent a few hundred thousand US dollars in the new LV store in Shanghai, seriously mainland is totally cool nowaday, at least the cities i visited.

I believe in status quo, right now is good btw the two sides. Both with their own government. Taiwanese are allowed to invest money into China. WHich benifits both sides. I mean we ARE all
CHINESE here, why fight with each other? Most Taiwanese people I've encountered are nice. And I think artists here like musicians or movies stars are very open on this topic. Singers like Jay, Yan cheng xu, S.H.E respect all their fans in mainland, hong kong, taiwan, singapor, malaysia... we are all mandarin speaking, we may consider ourselves to be, cantonese, taiwanese, ABCs, CBCs, but in the end we are all still Chinese. Have pride in that, cauz I know I do!

lol damn this is a long post, thx for reading

oh yeah another thing, to the person that said Taiwan was never officially part of china,
Taiwan has been part of China since the Ming Dynasty, it was part of China in the Ching
Dynasty. (about 1000 year span) When nationalist took over in 1911, it was still part of china. But it was under Japanese occupation for a while, and only after 1949 can Taiwan be considered not part
of China because it has it's own government

jjfgirl - i'm totally with you, and those are pretty much the facts. besides, didn't china give up taiwan to the japanese at one point? i don't understand why they can't just leave that tiny little island alone. okok, i'm going to get major flames for that, but this is all online. whoopee! i love online debates for this very reason.

haha yeah China did give up taiwan to the japanese, guess who did that,
the Nationalist government of Taiwan, well, use to be Nationalist of Mainland
but they got driven out of Mainland and then fled to taiwan after commies beat them.
(after 1945 japan returned taiwan to china)

[judes]

I've been avoiding this topic because I know I'm going to get pissed off at rant about it, so I'm going to try and respond to this in a calmed down manner and in a restrained time period so I won't bitch. *breathes*

I don't think the point that people are getting at is Taiwan people are superior to Chinese people. I do know that a lot of Chinese think that Taiwan thinks of mainland as suppressed and backwards, but I know that the rapid expansion of the economy has really changed the big city. But I don't want Taiwan to go to China not for the reason that it's going to be "hipper" to be part of Japan (since we're under so much Japanese influence) or that China is not "cool enough" for Taiwan. The problem is - the government.

It is obvious through the last two elections that the Taiwanese people are ready for change. They do not like the way that Kuomingtan are ruling the island, and that's why the majority of the population voted the Democratic Progressive Party in.

The reason that Taiwanese people do not like "Outsiders" or "Wai Sheng Ren" is because many of the Taiwanese can remember what happened to Taiwan when the Chinese government from the mainland attempted to...well, the crudest form I can say it is to beat down on the political opposition within Taiwan of their rule. There's a museum in Taipei (228 museum) that lists all of the people who have died or have been sent to prison because of this.

I am proud of my country because I am able to speak out about the government now without fear of persecution. Without fear of getting beaten, or thrown into jail, or kicked out of the country, or killed like many of the people who were alive during 228. My grandfather speaks about this issue not against the concept of "outsiders" but about the terror that he experienced with his family during 228. He has nothing against people from mainland China moving in, but he says that they can take their political ideologies and reunification and stick it up where it belongs.

I doubt that China's promises will come true if Taiwan reunites with the mainland, because of the situation currently in Hong Kong now with the supposed "voting". I doubt that the Taiwanese will enjoy the freedom of press, of choosing their own governments, and the freedom to speak out about that government if Taiwan "returns" to China. I do have friends who have immigrated to Canada from China, and they have absolutely no interest in their government, and their apathy to their social status, to the politics in their country, is horrifying to me, a person who has spent half of her life in Taiwan and half of her life in Canada, two countries that embrace democracy and the freedom to speak.

I have nothing against communists. I believe that it is the people of China's own choice to bring the communists into power. But I believe that it is not right to force it upon the Taiwanese.

I'm not going to comment on the China and Taiwan and ownership issue because I am not informed about this, but I will become informed about it. And you can bet all you want on it that I am going to excercise my freedom of speech to speak out about this when I have more knowledge of the matter.

Any arguments? Bring it.

[nycgirls]

Hanzo's and judes' posts are basically the two typical arguments brought up by this issue, which is like Booker T. Washington vs. W.B. DuBois...(NOT the topic of it, but the basic polar points of an argument.) Good reads... and they are right on top of each other... great position.

Historical pt- I will laugh my belly off if ppl neglected the history before 1949, even before the modern history era (Before 1848)... By saying that Taiwan never have any historical or cultural connection with China is like saying Madagascar is not part of Africa... nonsense. 58 years since the major alteration of politics in Taiwan and the mainland is too weak to erase the history bonds between them. So "historically different", bleh, is not a point for this argument.

sorry i neglected the basis of the question

yer its pretty gay, most of the famous Taiwanese people aren't really Taiwanese

its kind of like that whole "ABC" and "fag" thing here in the US

older Taiwanese citizens make fun of newer, what they call "Wai Sheng Ren", or basically foreign Taiwanese...the only difference is that the people who call themselves true "Taiwanese" migrated to Taiwan before the communist takeover, and those who went after the takeover are labeled foreign

funny, because over 70% of the government in Taiwan is runned by the "foreign" Taiwanese people

to me, we're just Taiwanese, we were born there and raised in Taiwan, there is no difference who came first or who came later...but in the end, we're all Chinese, we eat the same kind of food, talk in similar languages, and all have Chinese blood running throughout or bodies.

Here here! Love your words... simple and strong! Hope that freakin' Lu Xiu Lian will notice about her ugly makeup before making stupid statements... honestly, she doesn't even argue on the points... completely off-topic. I will pay more respects to a TW leader who is arguing for their independence with dignity.

It's so hard to let the world know what is really going on, but I hope everyone will find out solid facts before expressing their views. :wink2: Peace!

[judes]

I find it so hilarious that the Communist party has changed their economic viewpoint to the "socialist market economy" and THAT is why their country is growing, because of the capitalists who invest in the market within China. The very thing that the communists detest is now being embraced because they want to become more modern and a great world power. I can stand believing in an ideology and putting it into work within a country, I can respect that belief, but to be hypocritical and warp your ideology into what you profess to dislike...That's just ridiculous.

Taiwan did provide terms for reunification with China, but China has declined those terms. And what I found the most freaking ironic part of this situation is that after the events of Tiananmen, Taiwan was the country who poured the money into China in investments because of the world recoil in cooperating with China because of that event. To that I say, golly gee whiz, that's sure nice.

You want facts? I'll give you facts. Heh.

While historically different may not be a point for Taiwanese independence, but I do believe that modern differences are. Like people stated, a lot of the Taiwanese population did come after the Nationalist Party was defeated in China, and therefore the political environment within Taiwan is drastically different from China.

I am not saying that Chiang Kai-shek is the greatest political leader ever, and he did execute many people who promoted "Taiwan for the Taiwanese", still, his rule was essential in the development of the system we have today. It is ironic that "Young Chiang" was the one who changed the one-party to the creation of the mainly two-party system with the creation of the DPP.

And to whoever said above that the government is run by "foreign" chinese people. I would like to say that is not true. The Taiwanese belief is of course, people who live in Taiwan, and are not mainlanders. I believe the term mainlander can extend to second or even third generation, but actual Taiwanese, and not people from the mainland sent by the government, are in the Kuomintang party. My point is...whether independence is in the future for Taiwan or not, there is no doubt that the Taiwanese people are against direct reunification with China. Further clarification on the term 'mainlander': A mainlander, in the strictest sense, are people who came over from the mainland because of the Kuomintang losing to the Communist. As in, they were not in Taiwan when it was either underneath Japanese rule, or still acknowledged as a true province of China.

I do agree with you that VP Lu should watch her mouth sometimes and be careful of her support base, but under the mainland government, would any Taiwanese be able to mouth off about the party and leaders in power? Would anybody be able to protest the words that come out of her mouth? Would there be the array of political shows that are on TV criticizing the government? Free press. That is what I am getting at. Historically, the communist, fascist and socialist governments that have come into power take out free press first, or at least put it in their priorities. Without an area to speak out about the political system, and the subsequent suppression from the government, I believe you basically have nothing.

major edit: After discussing with my father and consulting books about this issue beforehand, and although my father is not the major guru of Taiwanese history, my family does have more than seven generations of Taiwanese heritage at our backs...I have seen that there are three groups of people in Taiwan that are against reunification.

1) The people who lived in Taiwan before the Nationalist party fled there, and saw the mainland government as an insensitive uncaring government who did nothing for the people in the province of Taiwan. This was further shown by giving the island to the Japanese, and through Japanese taking over Taiwan and the differences between the governing of two countries, and the subsequent return of Taiwan to China, the Taiwanese could see that in choosing between two evils, they would rather choose Japan. This is because of the 228 incident, where Kuomintang overtook Taiwan and subjected the Taiwanese under its rule and made it seem like the Japanese were benevolent in comparison.

2) The Nationalist Party, Kuomintang, who came to Taiwan in 1949 or so after defeat in the Civil war in China when the communists took over. They are the people who believe that the mainland belongs to the true government, which is the Nationalist Party. So they essentially believe that China belongs to them.

3) The children of either of the groups, and/or especially foreign investors/business owners who have great interest in keeping Taiwan's independence because of its economic ability (I won't say strength, because it's simply not true these days.) and because of their interest with keeping Taiwan separate from China. The children of the above two groups have a slightly different view of the situation, and these are the most common viewpoints you hear: the political, freedom of speech viewpoint that they have gotten accustomed to throughout their lifetime, and the stereotype of mainlanders as backwards and communists who will suppress them with their ideologies, and simply, that the two cultures (Yes, I do believe in calling Chinese and Taiwanese culture different, if you want to hear me rant about that, ask) have evolved to such a point that they cannot simply come back together without violence.

You know why I think China is so keen on getting Taiwan back?
Because communism is NOT WORKING. and they need a way to boost national morale, so with the implied threat of force used if Taiwanese do declare independence, they will have a focus that's directed away from their flawed government. But that's just me.

[Hanzo]

Yes, I'd like china and every non-democratic country to enjoy democracy. I dont know about other countries, but i know that in china at this stage. Democracy is near impossible to implement. Although there has been mass urbanization, there is still many people in rural areas. With a population of over 1 billion, elections takes weeks if not month, combined with possible miscounts
or plain fraud on the election(which we've seen with florida, a bian geting shot 1 day before the election). Don't get me wrong, I think democracy is the best, that's why I'm in Canada, but it does have its dark side as well.

US going to war with Iraq without UN approval, to seek out the weapons of mass destruction which were never found. At the cost of all those innocent people, This is "democracy", now onto Taiwan. Ah bian obviously knew that the votes were going to be tight, and everyone knows the shooting had a huge effect on teh votes, whether it was planned or pure coincidence that he got shot ONE day before the election, we dont know... the whole "6108" event in Taiwan right now, about spending 600+ billion NT = 24 billion US on buying patriot missiles. Lots of people rallied against it, yet no use, a bian is going through with it no matter what. This is "democracy".

About foreign investment into China. I'm sure it is two-sided. I mean foreigners or taiwanese they are not there to invest money in china because it helps the people, they are there to make money. If investing in China wasn't profitable, they wouldn't give a f***. So China has nothing to thank Taiwan for its investments because it is beneficial to both sides.

Like I said before, I'd like status-quo. I mean it's perfect right now. Taiwan is running it's own government, both side is allowed to do business with each other, singers/actors performing and cooperating, there is peace and prosperarity for both sides. but that's what I want... China wants eventual unification, more than 50% of people in Taiwan wants seperation. At this rate, war is immenant. That just plain sucks, i got relatives in taiwan, people in taiwan has relatives in mainland, why do we have to fight each other? We are the same race, same people. okay maybe saying we are all Chinese may offend some, so i'll use we are all Hua Ren, we aren't like Palastineans vs. Isrealis, russians vs. chechians, we are the same race, we have the same language, same religion, just different government, and maybe pop culture is somewhat different.

Now onto taiwanese politics, former president Lee, former head of guomingdan obviously caused many seperations between the party. With people leaving guomingdan to form Xindan and Qingmingdan, which weakend the party a lot and also the votes were now dispersed. This was perfect for mingjindan therefore they took power. The newest election i've mentioned, it was very very tight, combined with the shooting, it created huge disputes. And right now in Taiwan there is a very clear government divide between the north and south. With north supporting guomingdan and south supporting mingjingdan.

Actually i dont care about the government. All i care is that Taiwanese people realized that, yes, you are Taiwanese, but at the same time, you are also chinese, also a hua ren. Just like people from hongkong are cantonese but at the same time they are chinese. Just like people in Singapore we are all hua ren. There is a point in history where our ancestors fought together as friends or foes. why are we denying it? Why are some ashamed when they are called a chinese? China is the 7th in GDP this year, by the year 2050, it'll be 2nd and enough to rival the US or EU. Military wise, it is 3rd, under US and russia. Be proud. Let there be peace. and hope JAY will keep making music for decades to come so all of us mandarin speaking friends can enjoy it.

no hard feelings towards anyone
Peace ^_^V





2) The Nationalist Party, Kuomintang, who came to Taiwan in 1949 or so after defeat in the Civil war in China when the communists took over. They are the people who believe that the mainland belongs to the true government, which is the Nationalist Party. So they essentially believe that China belongs to them.


I think the nationalist party is the one that is less eager to seperate compared to the Progressive party stance towards seperation.


3) The children of either of the groups, and/or especially foreign investors/business owners who have great interest in keeping Taiwan's independence because of its economic ability (I won't say strength, because it's simply not true these days.) and because of their interest with keeping Taiwan separate from China. The children of the above two groups have a slightly different view of the situation, and these are the most common viewpoints you hear: the political, freedom of speech viewpoint that they have gotten accustomed to throughout their lifetime, and the stereotype of mainlanders as backwards and communists who will suppress them with their ideologies, and simply, that the two cultures (Yes, I do believe in calling Chinese and Taiwanese culture different, if you want to hear me rant about that, ask) have evolved to such a point that they cannot simply come back together without violence.


If seperation means war with china, i believe those rich busniess owners would be the least to support seperation. I mean they have the most to lose here. Their business and their land holding, their stocks, would all be demolished if war broke out. The whole Asian economy would be screwed up, thats why singapore, japan, and korea all fear this war.

Young people of middle to upper class families from large modernized cities like Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou share the same lifestyle as young people from taipei. They buy the same fashion magazines, fashion with japanese twist, share the same type of hairstyle, listen to the same music, watch the same movies, spending money like crazy, only difference is the way mandarin is spoken and used. But that's probably only 5% of all kids in china, living the hipper and more high class life.

[judes]

Yes, I'd like china and every non-democratic country to enjoy democracy. I dont know about other countries, but i know that in china at this stage. Democracy is near impossible to implement. Although there has been mass urbanization, there is still many people in rural areas. With a population of over 1 billion, elections takes weeks if not month, combined with possible miscounts
or plain fraud on the election(which we've seen with florida, a bian geting shot 1 day before the election). Don't get me wrong, I think democracy is the best, that's why I'm in Canada, but it does have its dark side as well.

US going to war with Iraq without UN approval, to seek out the weapons of mass destruction which were never found. At the cost of all those innocent people, This is "democracy", now onto Taiwan. Ah bian obviously knew that the votes were going to be tight, and everyone knows the shooting had a huge effect on teh votes, whether it was planned or pure coincidence that he got shot ONE day before the election, we dont know... the whole "6108" event in Taiwan right now, about spending 600+ billion NT = 24 billion US on buying patriot missiles. Lots of people rallied against it, yet no use, a bian is going through with it no matter what. This is "democracy".

I believe the benefits of democracy greatly outweigh the benefits of communism.
There is no perfect government. And I doubt that President Chen is going to go through with that if there is zero support. There are going to be opposing people to everything he brings up, so as a leader, he has to make decisions for the country, that is the price of choosing democracy, but at least the people have a voice, instead of none at all.

So if democracy is impossible to implement, it is the best decision to leave a country of 1 billion people in the hands of a government that is not doing anything to feed the people? Anybody can talk to me about the fast growth of the economy, the way things are going great, but when I see so many people hungry and starving under their government plans, and the way history has shown that people who are placed into power want to stay in power through any means...I would say, democracy is worth it.

A statement from a textbook of mine says that most third world countries who are under democracies tend to improve economically faster than third world countries under dictatorships. Now, I don't have facts to back that up, but I would definitely research that in the future.

About foreign investment into China. I'm sure it is two-sided. I mean foreigners or taiwanese they are not there to invest money in china because it helps the people, they are there to make money. If investing in China wasn't profitable, they wouldn't give a f***. So China has nothing to thank Taiwan for its investments because it is beneficial to both sides.

That's capitalism for you.
But you have to have investors, or else your economy gets nowhere.
At that time, two thirds of the investments going into China were from Hong Kong and Taiwan. So I'm not asking for China to bow down and worship Taiwan in praise, but China should appreciate Taiwan for the money that it funneled into its economy.

Like I said before, I'd like status-quo. I mean it's perfect right now. Taiwan is running it's own government, both side is allowed to do business with each other, singers/actors performing and cooperating, there is peace and prosperarity for both sides. but that's what I want... China wants eventual unification, more than 50% of people in Taiwan wants seperation. At this rate, war is immenant. That just plain sucks, i got relatives in taiwan, people in taiwan has relatives in mainland, why do we have to fight each other? We are the same race, same people. okay maybe saying we are all Chinese may offend some, so i'll use we are all Hua Ren, we aren't like Palastineans vs. Isrealis, russians vs. chechians, we are the same race, we have the same language, same religion, just different government, and maybe pop culture is somewhat different.

I'm not happy with status quo. Taiwan trying to headbutt its way into the U.N., China using its veto power, and threats coming across the Strait. I'm saying hell yeah I'm going to defend my homeland using those missiles that President Chen might purchase if it comes to it.

I know we all came from the same ancestors, but I will say straight out that I do not believe Taiwanese and Chinese people are the same. We have the same language, true, but we do not have the same religion. There is freedom of religion in Taiwan, and that freedom is not present in China. Pop culture is EXTREMELY different. The news, entertainment that I see on tv in Taiwan is different from the broadcasts in China where propaganda and news about the politician's meetings are prevalent everywhere. Oh, and language - I can barely understand a lot of the people who speak Chinese and come from China. The culture is also a lot different, because the Taiwanese are more open in their way of dress (although that is narrowing, but there are still significant differences), more outspoken in situations that relate to government, and once again, that wonderful thing I love - free press.

Now onto taiwanese politics, former president Lee, former head of guomingdan obviously caused many seperations between the party. With people leaving guomingdan to form Xindan and Qingmingdan, which weakend the party a lot and also the votes were now dispersed. This was perfect for mingjindan therefore they took power. The newest election i've mentioned, it was very very tight, combined with the shooting, it created huge disputes. And right now in Taiwan there is a very clear government divide between the north and south. With north supporting guomingdan and south supporting mingjingdan.

Actually i dont care about the government. All i care is that Taiwanese people realized that, yes, you are Taiwanese, but at the same time, you are also chinese, also a hua ren. Just like people from hongkong are cantonese but at the same time they are chinese. Just like people in Singapore we are all hua ren. There is a point in history where our ancestors fought together as friends or foes. why are we denying it? Why are some ashamed when they are called a chinese? China is the 7th in GDP this year, by the year 2050, it'll be 2nd and enough to rival the US or EU. Military wise, it is 3rd, under US and russia. Be proud. Let there be peace. and hope JAY will keep making music for decades to come so all of us mandarin speaking friends can enjoy it.

Once again, that's democracy. The multi-party system is an excellent development in Taiwanese politics. It makes everything more fair, and more points of views get represented. People used to support Kuomintang because they had no choice. They had to vote for that party because of the place they work, I know my parents did. The two largest TV stations were owned by Kuomintang, and their points of views get broadcasted way more than any people who disagreed.

Why am I ashamed of being Chinese? I'm not. I look in the mirror every day and see my skin color, and I'm proud of that. But I am prouder of being a Taiwanese. I am prouder of being associated with this people, because we have democracy. It might not be a perfect system, but we're improving upon it. I do not agree with Communism, because I do not believe in works, therefore I would not like to subject my homeland to the eventual failure.

I think the nationalist party is the one that is less eager to seperate compared to the Progressive party stance towards seperation.

You mentioned the divide within the Kuomintang party.
That's why I listed them as another group, because there are factions within the party that wish for separation, or more clear divides in between China and Taiwan. But maybe the Nationalist Party isn't the best name since it's basically an out of date term that died when Chiang Kai-Shek died and they realized that they weren't going to retake the mainland. So these are the less extreme people that want Taiwanese separation, perhaps not straightout independence.

If seperation means war with china, i believe those rich busniess owners would be the least to support seperation. I mean they have the most to lose here. Their business and their land holding, their stocks, would all be demolished if war broke out. The whole Asian economy would be screwed up, thats why singapore, japan, and korea all fear this war.

Young people of middle to upper class families from large modernized cities like Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou share the same lifestyle as young people from taipei. They buy the same fashion magazines, fashion with japanese twist, share the same type of hairstyle, listen to the same music, watch the same movies, spending money like crazy, only difference is the way mandarin is spoken and used. But that's probably only 5% of all kids in china, living the hipper and more high class life.

Foreign investors, such as the ones in the U.S. would be more inclined to support Taiwan separation because of the stance their government would have and the risk of war. And the main thing that they are looking for: "democracy" versus Communism, which still has pretty strong holds since McCarthyism. I know what you're getting at though, but I doubt they would support reunification due to the restrictions that the Chinese government are placing on people who invest in their country. Some of them are looking at Taiwan as a foothold into China, and that would make it better for them to maintain what we have currently. This was a bad example, I apologize, because there are a lot of ways you can look at this.

Middle and upper class families are not the predominant group of Chinese, like you mentioned at the end. They might be influenced by the same media, but the way they think is different from Taiwanese youth. And while most Taiwanese youth have similar lifestyles, the differences throughout the entire country of China make it difficult for me to remotely support the stance that Taiwanese and Chinese youth are the same. Language is not the only thing that is different here. My association with immigrants that have come directly from China only strengthen my belief of that...and I don't go to your average Caucasian school. My school is about 40-50% Asian, with a great number of that Chinese and Korean. Their work ethic, personal beliefs, and basic drive in their lives are different. I found it way easier to relate to Caucasians than to Chinese immigrants, and Mandarin is my mother tongue…

One last thing: we have same language, same religion.
Canadians. Americans. Same language, same religion, same TV. But man do their opinions clash. I don't call myself American, do you?

[Hanzo]

I believe the benefits of democracy greatly outweigh the benefits of communism.
There is no perfect government. And I doubt that President Chen is going to go through with that if there is zero support. There are going to be opposing people to everything he brings up, so as a leader, he has to make decisions for the country, that is the price of choosing democracy, but at least the people have a voice, instead of none at all.

So if democracy is impossible to implement, it is the best decision to leave a country of 1 billion people in the hands of a government that is not doing anything to feed the people? Anybody can talk to me about the fast growth of the economy, the way things are going great, but when I see so many people hungry and starving under their government plans, and the way history has shown that people who are placed into power want to stay in power through any means...I would say, democracy is worth it.

A statement from a textbook of mine says that most third world countries who are under democracies tend to improve economically faster than third world countries under dictatorships. Now, I don't have facts to back that up, but I would definitely research that in the future.


I'm pretty sure china is not starving right now. Or maybe i'm wrong because I dont
goto rural areas, i know in the cities most people are well fed, but then again, the relatives i have are all pretty well off in china. And about communism in china, I believe it is the best form of government for mainland china. I mean sure there are corruption and misuse of power. But I dont think any democratic country in the world can just execute or jail a few hundred corrupt government official within the matter of weeks. If it was democracy these rich corrupt government official would all be able to use their wealth to buy them ways of escaping china.

India is somewhat democracy, well they claim to be, and their growth rate is not as fast as that of China's. Side note, China can no longer be considered as a 3rd world country. 7th largest GDP in the world, are you saying the other 200 countries below are all 3rd world countries?


But you have to have investors, or else your economy gets nowhere.
At that time, two thirds of the investments going into China were from Hong Kong and Taiwan. So I'm not asking for China to bow down and worship Taiwan in praise, but China should appreciate Taiwan for the money that it funneled into its economy.


Once again, this is 2 sided, no need to appreciate anyone. If Taiwan does not wish to invest, people else where would, because everyone wants a bite of china right now. For example, LV opened up its biggest shop just recently in Shanghai, why because they know they can make money. Singers and hosts of Taiwan rather perform in Shanghai during mid autumn festival this year than in Taiwan. Majority of Jay's albums sales come from China. Everyone wants a bite, europeans, north americans, asians, everyone knows that if just 0.0001% of the people in china are semi interested in what they have to sell or offer, they'll make a profit.

Taiwan is an island, where do you think its primarily resources come from? yep China.
All im saying is, it is mutual, nobody owes nobody.


I'm not happy with status quo. Taiwan trying to headbutt its way into the U.N., China using its veto power, and threats coming across the Strait. I'm saying hell yeah I'm going to defend my homeland using those missiles that President Chen might purchase if it comes to it.


Most people's main argument against this is that, domestically a lot of people in taiwan need aim money from floods and earthquakes. yet government is spending billions on some overpriced weapon that may or may not be able to intercept incoming chinese ICBMs. This ain't cold war, the military strength gap is just too vast between the two. Buying patriot missiles does not mean it can prevent an invasion. Why not spend the money on the people. I saw on tv that many started drinking bubble tea because one politician said if we all stop drinking bubble tea we'll have the money, i like that about
taiwan, people get to do whatever they feel like doing.


I know we all came from the same ancestors, but I will say straight out that I do not believe Taiwanese and Chinese people are the same. We have the same language, true, but we do not have the same religion. There is freedom of religion in Taiwan, and that freedom is not present in China. Pop culture is EXTREMELY different. The news, entertainment that I see on tv in Taiwan is different from the broadcasts in China where propaganda and news about the politician's meetings are prevalent everywhere. Oh, and language - I can barely understand a lot of the people who speak Chinese and come from China. The culture is also a lot different, because the Taiwanese are more open in their way of dress (although that is narrowing, but there are still significant differences), more outspoken in situations that relate to government, and once again, that wonderful thing I love - free press.

Once again, that's democracy. The multi-party system is an excellent development in Taiwanese politics. It makes everything more fair, and more points of views get represented. People used to support Kuomintang because they had no choice. They had to vote for that party because of the place they work, I know my parents did. The two largest TV stations were owned by Kuomintang, and their points of views get broadcasted way more than any people who disagreed.

Hmm, i thought majority of chinese are buddists.... about culture. When was the last time you visited taiwan and the last time u've been to mainland? I just visited Beijing and Taipei in the past month. sure, there might be more regulations about political stuff in mainland. But the food, the festivals, the entertainment, all the same. One thing if you got the money u can do pretty much anything(non-political related) in Beijing that you can do in Taipei. Mandarin is spoken differently in every province in China, not just China vs Taiwan mandarin. Because every province has like their own dialects. And about the way Mainlanders dress, u're right majority of the young ppl are still rather ghetto on the stuff they wear. But the ppl I was with in beijing pretty much wore the same style as me, a bannana fob.

Yeah democracy is good, but I still believe the shooting of prez Chen was very contraversial.

I believe the white house made a clear statment that, they will not support Taiwan if Taiwan declares independence straight out. And with the whole Iraqi and terrrorist situation they have to deal with. What the american's least wanted would be a conflict with China which could be catastrophic for the whole world. Economics and everything else aside, nobody wants war, but if president chen declares Taiwan's independence without any further negotiation with mainland, mainland will invade no matter what. That has already been made clear to the world. It's not a threat, but a fact.



Middle and upper class families are not the predominant group of Chinese, like you mentioned at the end. They might be influenced by the same media, but the way they think is different from Taiwanese youth. And while most Taiwanese youth have similar lifestyles, the differences throughout the entire country of China make it difficult for me to remotely support the stance that Taiwanese and Chinese youth are the same. Language is not the only thing that is different here. My association with immigrants that have come directly from China only strengthen my belief of that...and I don't go to your average Caucasian school. My school is about 40-50% Asian, with a great number of that Chinese and Korean. Their work ethic, personal beliefs, and basic drive in their lives are different. I found it way easier to relate to Caucasians than to Chinese immigrants, and Mandarin is my mother tongue…

One last thing: we have same language, same religion.
Canadians. Americans. Same language, same religion, same TV. But man do their opinions clash. I don't call myself American, do you?

Funny how I actually went to the exact same school as you. Sir Winston Churchill right? wow so weird, like creepy haha :glug: Anyways, i dont know what type of FOBs you are referring to when u said chinese immagrants... but I got cantonese friends, taiwanese friends, mainland friends, I dont see the differences, sure we may say mandarin differently, but we still party together, go clubbing together, hangout together like we're all chinese. I dont feel im being left out because im a mainlander. Or is that cauz i've been in canada for 12+ years that im already a semi-CBC?

yeah i guess I can't base my arguement on language and religion.... But I dont think any country would want to see a province of their for centuries to just disappear off its maps. LIke russian in chechnia, clashes between britain and ireland liberation army, the bottom line is, taiwanese is stil chinese, but just chinese from taiwan, ethnic wise.

[scarletwillow]

Hanzo, just by glancing at your post, I have to point out a few things.
Let me say first, that I'm a mainland Chinese (from Beijing).

1. China IS starving, and pretty badly
2. China's GDP may be large, but remember: China also has the most people. Gross domestic product is the aggregate spending/income of everyone in China... what that means is, that's the amount of money circulating in China that year. It also means that even though it has the largest population, the amount of money circulating there is only the 7th largest amount. That means China is poor.
3. I won't talk about foreign investors much, because I hate them and want to kill every single one of them. Starbucks set up a shop at the Forbidden City once... I want to kill them SOOOO BAD.
4. Most Chinese are atheists.

Now, let me say this.
The root of the differences between Chinese and Taiwanese is not the political system... neither is it religion. Those two things are transient, and can be changed at will. What cannot be changed is our blood, and how we are intertwined, and how we are the same people. The barrier that remains is our attitudes towards one another. We can either try to fix it peacefully, and come back together, or stray apart, and fight a war.

I personally don't care whether there's a peaceful end or a violent end. As long as we are united, I'm happy. But I'm ready to go right back to China to fight for my country should there be a war.

[judes]

If it was democracy these rich corrupt government official would all be able to use their wealth to buy them ways of escaping china.

One second...if they're rich and corrupt government officials...then why would they want to escape China? If I were living off other people's money, then I would stay where I am until the money's gone. Like you said, in the big cities, lifestyle is pretty good in comparison, and I would imagine they would get the best...so...yeah.

India is somewhat democracy, well they claim to be, and their growth rate is not as fast as that of China's. Side note, China can no longer be considered as a 3rd world country. 7th largest GDP in the world, are you saying the other 200 countries below are all 3rd world countries?

While China is not a 3rd world country, some of the rural areas in China are still living as a 3rd world country if basic sanitation, electricity, etc. is mentioned.

Once again, this is 2 sided, no need to appreciate anyone. If Taiwan does not wish to invest, people else where would, because everyone wants a bite of china right now.
I agree completely. Right now, China doesn't need Taiwan's support, but I was referring to the time when Americans and a lot of the world were all anti-Communism. They changed their policies now that China is open to foreign investment. Taiwan was backed by the hopes that if they invest, China will relent politically. Unfortunately, that didn't work out too well, is my point.

Buying patriot missiles does not mean it can prevent an invasion. Why not spend the money on the people. I saw on tv that many started drinking bubble tea because one politician said if we all stop drinking bubble tea we'll have the money, i like that about
taiwan, people get to do whatever they feel like doing.

I believe that's exactly what the government is doing against China, no? They're saying they can buy missiles to defend themselves, and who cares about whatever country is telling them they can't. And I did hear about that. Stupid comment, but whatever.

I just visited Beijing and Taipei in the past month. sure, there might be more regulations about political stuff in mainland...

The thing is. I don't care if people in China dress the same as I do when I go back to Taiwan. I've actually only been to Hong Kong, I think, and the people there dress the same as I do, even trendier actually. The biggest thing with me is the regulation of politics on the mainland.

Yeah democracy is good, but I still believe the shooting of prez Chen was very contraversial.

I believe the white house made a clear statment that, they will not support Taiwan if Taiwan declares independence straight out. And with the whole Iraqi and terrrorist situation they have to deal with. What the american's least wanted would be a conflict with China which could be catastrophic for the whole world. Economics and everything else aside, nobody wants war, but if president chen declares Taiwan's independence without any further negotiation with mainland, mainland will invade no matter what. That has already been made clear to the world. It's not a threat, but a fact.

yeah i guess I can't base my arguement on language and religion.... But I dont think any country would want to see a province of their for centuries to just disappear off its maps. LIke russian in chechnia, clashes between britain and ireland liberation army, the bottom line is, taiwanese is stil chinese, but just chinese from taiwan, ethnic wise.

I do agree with you and scarletwillow. Chinese people are linked by blood. It would be better if we all got along, and what I want to say is - I will not oppose reunification with China if their government changes. I am a big believer in democracy and capitalism. I don't believe for one second that the Communist government will be able to refrain from controlling Taiwan. The political system may be transient, but it is essential to the well being of any country / province. If there is a war, I can't make any statement saying that I will go back to my country and fight for it, but I will go back and speak for change.

[Hanzo]

Hanzo, just by glancing at your post, I have to point out a few things.
Let me say first, that I'm a mainland Chinese (from Beijing).

1. China IS starving, and pretty badly
2. China's GDP may be large, but remember: China also has the most people. Gross domestic product is the aggregate spending/income of everyone in China... what that means is, that's the amount of money circulating in China that year. It also means that even though it has the largest population, the amount of money circulating there is only the 7th largest amount. That means China is poor.
3. I won't talk about foreign investors much, because I hate them and want to kill every single one of them. Starbucks set up a shop at the Forbidden City once... I want to kill them SOOOO BAD.
4. Most Chinese are atheists.

Now, let me say this.
The root of the differences between Chinese and Taiwanese is not the political system... neither is it religion. Those two things are transient, and can be changed at will. What cannot be changed is our blood, and how we are intertwined, and how we are the same people. The barrier that remains is our attitudes towards one another. We can either try to fix it peacefully, and come back together, or stray apart, and fight a war.

I personally don't care whether there's a peaceful end or a violent end. As long as we are united, I'm happy. But I'm ready to go right back to China to fight for my country should there be a war.

1.Yeah i probably didn't see the whole picture... Cauz when im back there. I spend money like crazy, shop, eat, party... and ppl i see are all well off, except for a few bums on the streets. But i guess many rural areas are facing starvation.

2. Ofcourse on a per capita bases, china is poor, avg income is low, but as a nation altogether, regardless of population, we are a world power now. 7th now but in a few decades we'll be able to rival US and EU. look at india, their population is going to surpass us in 10 20 years and yet their GDP is nowhere near ours.

3. investors are there to make money and meantime they are helping china as well. As for starbucks, yeah they are gonna take over the world. I saw the one in forbidden city last month, made me angry too! starbucks in china is like seven-eleven in taiwan.

4. yeah im aethist too... i guess most of the younger generations nowadays are aethist.

Well said man, I think if war broke out, I have to contribute to my homeland some how. But i still prefer a peaceful solution. I dont want to see Iraq repeated in Taiwan.

[scarletwillow]

I used to be pacifist Buddhist, but now I love war, he he he.

But anyways, I agree--China's current government is a load of bullshit, but I have to say, so is Taiwan's.
I want a China for the Chinese people.
Mmm, I sound like Hitler.

He he he.

[rosiean86]

Taiwanese is both an ethnicity and a nationality. I am ethnically Chinese.

You just contradicted yourself. You can't be ethnically Taiwanese if your ancestors immigrated there from China.

I'm not going to go very deep into this issue, first of all b/c this issue is very controversial and I'm not very knowledgeable about it, and second of all because I'm procrastinating on studying for my test :bleh:

I'm fine with Taiwan and China staying separate-the two have different cultures and I don't believe it's right for China to claim Taiwan as its own, especially after Taiwan has already structured its own independent government and has been functioning on its own for so long. However, the thing that does bother me is, like many people mentioned, the fact that a lot of Taiwanese people look down on mainland Chinese people as being backwards. I've faced a lot of it myself. Taiwanese people think they're so much "hipper" or whatever, because they're following Japanese culture so closely. My other problem with this is when Taiwanese people claim they're "ethnically" Taiwanese. WTF? OK people, time to bust out the dictionary here.

eth·nic·i·ty-

1. Ethnic character, background, or affiliation.
2. An ethnic group.

eth·nic

1 a. Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.
b. Being a member of a particular ethnic group, especially belonging to a national group by heritage or culture but residing outside its national boundaries: ethnic Hungarians living in northern Serbia.
c. Of, relating to, or distinctive of members of such a group: ethnic restaurants; ethnic art

Face it-Taiwanese people speak Chinese. They share a cultural heritage with the Chinese people. They are ethnically Chinese but of Taiwanese nationality. Get it right.

The only way that I would ever support Chinese take-over of Taiwan is if

1. China majorly cleaned up its govt. and started to actually take care of the people's needs.
2. Taiwan agrees to it.

These are both very unlikely events.

Otherwise, I see no point to it, and China's just making too much of a fuss over it. It's history, and it's over.

[judes]

wait a sec. sorry, I don't follow you there.
You said that China and Taiwan shouldn't come together because they are different culturally, but then in your dictionary statement:
Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.
If you take out that part of your dictionary statement, then yes, you can be ethnically Taiwanese.
So that does not make any sense at all.

Ethnicity, is a term coined to describe racial or cultural ties, since race wasn't really included within the definition until...I'm not quite sure of this since my memory of this is rusty, but until maybe late 19th century, especially with the whole Germany thing.

I know what you mean and ethnicity shouldn't be mentioned, since that's a blurry word.
I would support the words I am Taiwanese though, because, <--insert strong word here--> YES, I am, nationally, culturally. Sure Taiwanese people may look down on Chinese people sometimes, but I have met Chinese people who laugh in my face and tell me that Taiwan will be taken back to China soon, and that I better shut my mouth if I know what's good for me. So it is definitely not only a one-sided attitude.

[kewlpiggy88]

just last week, i went to volunteer for my city's street dance, and i was making these yo-yo balloons before the actual street dance, and this old man was asking everybody what we were, since it was a bunch of asians. and he was liike, "does anybody speak mandarin?" so i said yes, and then he asked me, "your parents from beijing?" and i said, "no, they're from taiwan" and then he just walked away. and he was really talkative before, like asking my last name and stuff...and he had a beijing accent or something close to it. so it's not only taiwan people looking down...i mean, i just had a real-life encounter!

[Hanzo]

seriously if taiwanese was an ethnicity, why dont you invent your own language? dont speak
mandarin, dont write chinese, oh yeah the so called "Tai Yu" that's Ming Nan Hua, you know that
millions across the Taiwan strait speak the exact same thing as you.

And the main reason why Taiwan is more advanced right now is because the Nationalists
retreated there in 1949. Prior to that, its main industry was fishing and farming. The nationalists
of Taiwan was considered China for 25 years. They were the ones at UN, at security counsil until
the mid 70s when mainland took over. Taiwan's nationalist government received numerous aid from
US and the rest of the world, while mainland china had nobody. Even the communist Russia had numerous disputes with China(difference in views btw Mao and Stalin), hence why Mongolia was seperated to decrease the border between the two nations. Much of the gold and silver reserves of China were also taken by the nationalist to Taiwan.

Seriously why do taiwanese look down on mainlanders? okay u can look down on our government for being communist and for not giving people rights. But our people? like wtf?
Most must think, oh china, people there are dirty, no electricity, no water, no food, live like bums, no tv, no air conditioning, dont shower, dont brush, dont have shoes to wear, always wear fake brands, willing to kil someone for a penny, stingy... whats with the sterotypes??

I never once thought taiwanese was better than us mainlanders. I thought of us as equals, thats why i have Taiwanese and mainland friends. But I can tell on the news and TV shows that people look down on mainlanders here in Taiwan.

[judes]

I can't speak for the rest of the country, but I can speak for my own family's history.
It's not that my family looks down on mainlanders, and everybody knows people are equal.
But mainlanders have not had a history of being good to the people of Taiwan.

China's government (edit: wait? government? ruling power, I mean.) gave Taiwan to Japan.
Suppression of people under Japanese rule.
It moved Taiwan along economically and encouraged growth, but not without costs.

Nationalist Party, mainlander.
Came to Taiwan and set up a dictator's government.
Killed a lot of Taiwanese.

Now China's threat of bombing Taiwan if they declare independence.

That's three governments. Many years of history. Taiwan's association with China has not been good. So please do not make it appear that the Taiwanese are at fault for thinking people from China are backwards, etc. The rest of the world also thinks China's living circumstances are backwards, why are you not mad at them? I don't think that's those are the purest reasons that Taiwan people dislike mainlanders. Thinking that the Taiwanese are a rebel people that need to be crushed is also not very respectful.

[scarletwillow]

When did China give Taiwan to Japan?
As far as I know, Taiwan is one of the few East Asian countries that actually has the least tension with Japan. And as far as I know, Taiwan welcomed Japanese occupation as a means to get away from the Communists in the mainland.

Although, if Taiwan wants independence, I support mass killing.
How would the USA react if a huge chunk decided to form their own country?
I'll tell you what...
The US Civil War, that's what.
And it WILL happen if Taiwan dares to declare independence.
And like I said, I will fight in that war.

And by the way, don't blame China for all its misfortunes.
The world is to blame for spreading famine throughout half the communist countries out there. Look at how the world treats China, Cuba, North Korea. They treat us like shit... how are we supposed to progress if they don't help?

They rebuilt post-war Japan, but not post-war China.
That is a great injustice.

[kewlpiggy88]

Seriously why do taiwanese look down on mainlanders? okay u can look down on our government for being communist and for not giving people rights. But our people? like wtf?
Most must think, oh china, people there are dirty, no electricity, no water, no food, live like bums, no tv, no air conditioning, dont shower, dont brush, dont have shoes to wear, always wear fake brands, willing to kil someone for a penny, stingy... whats with the sterotypes??

But I can tell on the news and TV shows that people look down on mainlanders here in Taiwan.

so....people in the middle east must think Americans all chew bubble gum and worry over what prom dress to buy and hide drugs over our room? that we all have a 90210 zip code? seriously...i read that people in the middle east watched beverly hills 90210 and they think that's what the american life is.

and the news. well, i guess america has a bunch of corrupt executives who pilfer money away from others and there's a bunch of depressed teenagers who either decide to shoot up the school or jump off a bridge. yeah, reaalllll accurate. have u ever met someone who looked down to you? you can't make a judgement from media.

ACCORDING TO LONELY PLANET GUIDE BOOK
"in 1894 a dispute over Korea led to the Sino-Japanese War...But when China was defeated in 1895 Taiwan became one of the spoils of war and was ceded to Japan. ALthough the Japanese brought law and order, they also brough harsh rule. Many of Taiwan's residents objected and rebelled against this rule, proclaiming Taiwan an independent republic later that year."

according to dictionary.com
ceded - To surrender possession of, especially by treaty

and i noticed that everyone who is arguing here, they're basically arguing basically on the side that they're from (taiwan = tw, china=china). and omgosh....don't start going, "OH BUT MOST TW PEOPLE ORIGINATED FROM CHINA". please...then we're all from africa. let's get some more OUTSIDER opinion. and btw, in 1949, 1.5 million chinese moved to Taiwan after communists captured the mainland. the original population of taiwan was 6 million. sooo, big percentage, but still not a majority.

at least we agree on one thing = we love jay! jay brings us all together. what a wonderful guy.

[judes]

When did China give Taiwan to Japan?
As far as I know, Taiwan is one of the few East Asian countries that actually has the least tension with Japan. And as far as I know, Taiwan welcomed Japanese occupation as a means to get away from the Communists in the mainland.

Although, if Taiwan wants independence, I support mass killing.
How would the USA react if a huge chunk decided to form their own country?
I'll tell you what...
The US Civil War, that's what.
And it WILL happen if Taiwan dares to declare independence.
And like I said, I will fight in that war.

And by the way, don't blame China for all its misfortunes.
The world is to blame for spreading famine throughout half the communist countries out there. Look at how the world treats China, Cuba, North Korea. They treat us like shit... how are we supposed to progress if they don't help?

They rebuilt post-war Japan, but not post-war China.
That is a great injustice.

Actually it wasn't the communists that gave Taiwan to Japan, it was the Nationalist Party that was ruling at the time. So basically that was the party which screwed Taiwanese over again and again. If it wasn't the Nationalist Party, it was whichever ruling power that was in charge at that time. I very much doubt, actually, I am 100% sure that the Taiwanese did not welcome Japanese occupation.

China is not to blame for Taiwan's misfortunes. I only said those examples as reasons of why Taiwanese people hate mainlanders...continuing on below to the Japanese.

There is A LOT of animosity to the Japanese from the older people in Taiwan who've actually experienced what it was like to live under Japanese rule. I know that currently the youth have embraced Japanese culture, but I don't think it's true that people in Taiwan actually have good relations with Japan.

There are many countries that need help in the world. Of course people in democratic countries are going to help people in democratic countries. I am not going to let my tax money (ok, to be honest, my parent's tax money, but will be my tax money once I start working and turn 18.) support a propaganda machine that are brainwashing its people (North Korea). While I am all for sending them those countries aid, there is no evidence that the help that is given is even reaching the people through the many levels of corruption that are in those governments. If any of those countries want money, then they should start ruling for their people, not ruling for themselves.

Now, as an alternative, if the Canadian government would like to send training and various other help so that the country can become self sufficient, I'm all for that.

[rosiean86]

I can't speak for the rest of the country, but I can speak for my own family's history.
It's not that my family looks down on mainlanders, and everybody knows people are equal.
But mainlanders have not had a history of being good to the people of Taiwan.

China's government (edit: wait? government? ruling power, I mean.) gave Taiwan to Japan.
Suppression of people under Japanese rule.
It moved Taiwan along economically and encouraged growth, but not without costs.

Nationalist Party, mainlander.
Came to Taiwan and set up a dictator's government.
Killed a lot of Taiwanese.

Now China's threat of bombing Taiwan if they declare independence.

That's three governments. Many years of history. Taiwan's association with China has not been good. So please do not make it appear that the Taiwanese are at fault for thinking people from China are backwards, etc. The rest of the world also thinks China's living circumstances are backwards, why are you not mad at them? I don't think that's those are the purest reasons that Taiwan people dislike mainlanders. Thinking that the Taiwanese are a rebel people that need to be crushed is also not very respectful.

The reasons that you listed are good for explaining why Taiwanese people hate Chinese people. But there is absolutely no logic in your argument in why Taiwanese people look down on mainland people and think that we're backwards.

Chinese people aren't as upset about the outside world thinking that they're backwards, because they aren't our own people. Trust me, we don't like it either-I think a lot of Korean and Japanese people look down on mainlanders as being sort of backwards. But it seriously hurts when Chinese people themselves turn their back on their history, and a part of who they are (no matter how much you try to deny it.)

Ethnicity combines all the elements of the definition I provided-sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage. While I said that their cultures are different, I don't mean that they are totally different-they still share a lot of common culture.

[Hanzo]

and i noticed that everyone who is arguing here, they're basically arguing basically on the side that they're from (taiwan = tw, china=china). and omgosh....don't start going, "OH BUT MOST TW PEOPLE ORIGINATED FROM CHINA". please...then we're all from africa. let's get some more OUTSIDER opinion. and btw, in 1949, 1.5 million chinese moved to Taiwan after communists captured the mainland. the original population of taiwan was 6 million. sooo, big percentage, but still not a majority.

at least we agree on one thing = we love jay! jay brings us all together. what a wonderful guy.

YEP! JAY is the best!!!

Now, people in taiwan did originate from mainland. I said it before, the dialect taiwanese is mingnan hua, from southern fujian province. Majority of the people in taiwan now are decendents of mainlanders that fled there near the end of Ming dynasty. Bringing with them traditions of chinese people. So ethnics wise, taiwanese is still chinese.

[laruku]

Now, people in taiwan did originate from mainland. I said it before, the dialect taiwanese is mingnan hua, from southern fujian province. Majority of the people in taiwan now are decendents of mainlanders that fled there near the end of Ming dynasty. Bringing with them traditions of chinese people. So ethnics wise, taiwanese is still chinese.
Sigh... In that case shouldn't all the chinese people be under the control/rule of China then? We ALL descended from China! Every single one of us! So China should conquer the world! :rolleyes:

[azndragon1987]

By that reasoning, Africa should rule the world. It is pretty much accepted that all humans originated from there :-) Shouldn't base 'who should control' on who came first. I'm half Taiwanese and half Chinese (Mainland China)

[scarletwillow]

Judes: The Nationalist Party can hardly be associated with mainland China. If anything, it's associated with Taiwan. If you're looking for who screwed up the people most before WWII, it was definitely the Nationalists. They were traitors to the Chinese people. They were no less brutal than any of China's later communist rulers. And I hate, hate, hate them. If you don't believe me, just open up any history book.
And yes, the Taiwanese did essentially welcome the Japanese. Taiwan needs to get its priorities straight. Think about it yourself. Indeed it's true that the youth have embraced it.
And that's what I hate. History cannot be forgotten... and you people are forgetting it. The blood is too fresh for me to look the other way.

Sigh... In that case shouldn't all the chinese people be under the control/rule of China then? We ALL descended from China! Every single one of us! So China should conquer the world! :rolleyes:
That's the way I see it, anyways. And perhaps it shall be that way.

Azndragon1987: In other words, you're Chinese.

[JianDan[Ai]]

I have not been in here for a while, but I'm here to support jlo in fighting the good fight. Those of you who say "well if everyone came from china, then we should have all come from africa." That can be true, although there is a huge lack of insight in that statement. Before 5000BCE when, if it was indeed true that all people came from Africa, there was an foundation of society as we define it today, and by which definition we are applying to this argument of ethnicity. The chinese culture and civilization as we know it did not start until about 4000 to 3500 BCE, which is before any other major civilization including the eygyptians, those living in mesoptamia, and the Indus valley civilizations, the 3 other largest ancient civilizations. (wow taking asian art history really helps =] ) Enough said; you wanna get technical about where everyone originated from then there you go.

I dont feel like arguing right now, so I am just going to define 2 important words, once again..., as many of you in the last few pages are misusing them and switching them interchangably.

Perhaps people just dont like to listen to me, so I will use dictionary.com to give me a hand.


Ethnicity
n : an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties

..

Nationality
n: The status of belonging to a particular nation by origin, birth, or naturalization


In other words, ethnicity is where your roots lie, culturally and ethnically. Nationality only has to do with which country you identify with according to your birth or current residence. So for me to say my nationality is american, is a true statement. American is NOT my ethnicity however. I am chinese. This is why they call us here in america, "Chinese American." Why do they call us this? It is because in such a diverse country, we are identifed by out nationality and our ethnicity. We DO NOT mix them up.

Nor should you. It doesnt not matter what language you speak, what flag you hail, or even where you were born. If you are living on the Island of Taiwan and you are not clearly and directly a descedent of the aboriginals there, you have no right to call yourself ethnically taiwanese. Well you can, but then I might as well call myself a redneck and go vote for president bush now and hope he nukes you guys since your close enough to north korea and might be working with them shouldnt I?

[scarletwillow]

w00t de w00tz0rz

']I have not been in here for a while, but I'm here to support jlo in fighting the good fight. Those of you who say "well if everyone came from china, then we should have all come from africa." That can be true, although there is a huge lack of insight in that statement. Before 5000BCE when, if it was indeed true that all people came from Africa, there was an foundation of society as we define it today, and by which definition we are applying to this argument of ethnicity. The chinese culture and civilization as we know it did not start until about 4000 to 3500 BCE, which is before any other major civilization including the eygyptians, those living in mesoptamia, and the Indus valley civilizations, the 3 other largest ancient civilizations. (wow taking asian art history really helps =] ) Enough said; you wanna get technical about where everyone originated from then there you go.

I dont feel like arguing right now, so I am just going to define 2 important words, once again..., as many of you in the last few pages are misusing them and switching them interchangably.

Perhaps people just dont like to listen to me, so I will use dictionary.com to give me a hand.



In other words, ethnicity is where your roots lie, culturally and ethnically. Nationality only has to do with which country you identify with according to your birth or current residence. So for me to say my nationality is american, is a true statement. American is NOT my ethnicity however. I am chinese. This is why they call us here in america, "Chinese American." Why do they call us this? It is because in such a diverse country, we are identifed by out nationality and our ethnicity. We DO NOT mix them up.

Nor should you. It doesnt not matter what language you speak, what flag you hail, or even where you were born. If you are living on the Island of Taiwan and you are not clearly and directly a descedent of the aboriginals there, you have no right to call yourself ethnically taiwanese. Well you can, but then I might as well call myself a redneck and go vote for president bush now and hope he nukes you guys since your close enough to north korea and might be working with them shouldnt I?

Y'all got served.

Unh-unh, uh-huh.

[judes]

JianDan[Ai] (and everybody else): We're still on the ethnicity thing?
You're absolutely right. I am not ethnically Taiwanese, but I do identify with Taiwan as my homeland, whether it's a province of China or a country in its own right. That is why I am Taiwanese. Like I can call myself a Canadian and an Albertan in Canada. I can be ethnically Chinese, but nationally Taiwanese. This will be explained in the response to the following:

Judes: The Nationalist Party can hardly be associated with mainland China. If anything, it's associated with Taiwan. If you're looking for who screwed up the people most before WWII, it was definitely the Nationalists. They were traitors to the Chinese people. They were no less brutal than any of China's later communist rulers. And I hate, hate, hate them. If you don't believe me, just open up any history book.
And yes, the Taiwanese did essentially welcome the Japanese. Taiwan needs to get its priorities straight. Think about it yourself. Indeed it's true that the youth have embraced it.
And that's what I hate. History cannot be forgotten... and you people are forgetting it. The blood is too fresh for me to look the other way.

----

Why do I support Taiwanese independence?
Why do I hate mainlanders?
Not because they're backwards, not because I'm "hipper" than them. Those are stupid reasons and shouldn't be supported. Do you want me to talk about history? I can talk about history. Do you want me to talk about blood? There are plenty of examples that can talk about blood.

Because China, through three system of government, all suppressed Taiwan. Please note that, this is my reason for hating mainlanders. Not for superifical prejudices that they're dirty or smelly or whatever. I can be civil to them, but I can completely understand why older people in Taiwan dislike "Wai Sheng Ren"

1) As an introduction, before Japanese rule, Taiwan's economy was based on rice. China's government didn't do anything for Taiwan, and there wasn't any real connection with the mainland. Then the imperial government ceded Taiwan to Japan for suppression under a foreign people. First strike against mainland government.

scarletwillow:
2) I have no idea where you got your assumption that Taiwanese welcomed Japanese rule. The Taiwanese did not support being taken over by the Japanese. They were ceded in 1895, but at that time (I was incorrect before), the imperial government was ruling. So the imperial government gave Taiwan to Japan. Taiwan did not welcome the Japanese, but declared itself independent in hopes that they would be recognized. Of course the Japanese government took care of that by sending the military. Taiwan was Japan's first colony, and a lot of brutal acts took place in order to force the Taiwanese to submit to Japanese rule. Anti-Japanese protests sprung up in the island, and in the first year more than 30 villages were burned, their inhabitants killed, because of rebellions.

There was much economic growth within Taiwan, but all for the glory of Japan. The benefits that came with this rule in the economy laid the foundation for the future of Taiwan, still, rebellions continued into the 1930's. There was also a lot of indoctrination going on at the time where the Taiwanese were forced to assimilate to Japanese culture. So I am not surprised that it carried on over to youth today. After more than four decades of Japanese force, no wonder there are strong Japanese influences on the island today.

3) I hate the Nationalist Party for what they did to Taiwan. You say that history cannot be forgotten? The blood that the Nationalist Party shed in Taiwan was more brutal than Japanese rule. Don't tell me to forget that. The Nationalist Party comprised of mainlanders who fled to Taiwan after the civil war. They're associated with Taiwan, but their origins, where they came from, was China. They did dick all for Taiwan during their rule and screwed up Taiwan after they came here. The key point here is: mainlanders. They set up a dictatorship and killed any political opponents. The 228 incident, like I said, and reprecussions of that continued well into the 80's. I hate them, but the economic growth under their rule, and the results of that: democratic elections, made the standard of living better in Taiwan.

4) Now the Communists. The Communists did terrible things to support their rise to power, same with the Nationalist Party in Taiwan. Now that we gained the ability to vote and to speak out for our people, we're not going to give it back to be ruled by some country that has none of our best interests in mind.

Every prejudice has a basis.
I'm trying to get over mine in Canada, but it's difficult, I believe I'm making some progress since I'm actually talking about this instead of simmering in pure rage.

rosiean86: I see what you mean, thanks for clarifying. I wasn't trying to attack your point, only that I didn't really quite understand what you meant. I'll repeat myself again. Yes, my ethnicity is Chinese, in case people didn't get that the first time. And truthfully, I see absolutely no reason that I should think of the Chinese people I meet as backwards. They're as intelligent, as 'hip' with pop culture, as interesting as anybody else I would meet. But what I'm trying to get at is...it's not only Taiwanese who think Chinese people are backwards. It's everybody in the world too, a lot of Americans, Canadians, etc. It's because of the lower standard of living for a lot of people in China compared to 'first world' countries. Chinese people are not backwards, I would never think that (but I can only speak for myself on this matter), because I've seen pictures of the cities, met people from the cities.

Still, in conclusion: I can't forget history either.

[JianDan[Ai]]

Judes, I agree with some points, but there are some other points I wanna point out. I have nothing against the Japanese people persay, but as far I my arguement is about to go, between Japan and China, they are by far the greater evil.

If you cant forget the events of 1947, then don't forget what Japan did to China a few years before. The halocaust of Nanking, (one of the many cities which was competely destroyed, and was the worst because it was the capital of china at the time) where even Nazi's were horrified by the things the Japanese did, and Hilter told his men there to just stay out of it. If you are going to hate the mainlanders for the things they did to the aboriginals of Taiwan, you should hate the Japanese 10 times more for what they did to the Chinese.

On the side, American influence and intervention is even worse than China's as Chen Shui-bian is simply America's little puppet to try and get their foot up China's ass, if you know what I mean.


Under Chiang Kai-shek's leadership, Taiwan began to modernize its economy, and the island became highly competitive in foreign trade. He also broadened his political base by including natives of Taiwan in his government. In the early 1970s Chiang's government suffered serious setbacks when both Japan and the United States began to improve relations with the Chinese Communist government.

Remember, you gotta look at the good and bad together. I cant justify the killing of approximetly 20,000 Taiwanese.

And as far as my feeling of where China and Taiwan are now, well neither is very well off. China's communism is changing a lot, and although it technically is still offically a "communism" governement, they have adapted many other ideas and are becoming more and more open. This still does not mean I like the government, but at least they are beginning to make changes. As for Taiwan, their government is very weak and will not be able to run on its own. There is obvious corruption and a poor agenda sitting at their president's and congress's laps. Speaking of the president, I have yet to meet anyone whom supports him, (perhaps there is only a small population of Chinese here in America I have meet) but still, even those who strongly argue for Taiwanese Independence dislike, some even hate Chen Shui-bian.

And as for the "Chinese being backwards," I'm not sure by what you mean as "backwards," I am assuming 'strange,' but face it, most of the Chinese in America and Canada are Taiwanese, as the Chinese governement did not allow their people to leave freely until recently. Not to mention America thinks everyone is just strange and much lower then our standards. -_-

[judes]

I know what you're saying, and I agree.
Maybe I sound bad or sarcastic or even flippant for the above comment, and people might not believe me for saying I agree. For that I apologize, because I do see the logic with what you're saying.

But I refuse to choose between two evils. One may be lesser, one may be greater, yet in the end, those are still two bad governments that have done the people of Taiwan a great injustice. I haven't even begun to touch upon the atrocities that Japanese commited to the people of Taiwan alone, much less expand on what it did to China. The posts before are only my explanations for why I oppose Chinese government, nothing more, nothing less. I won't accept a Japanese government either. I'm extremely disappointed in young people in Taiwan embracing Japanese culture.

No matter what people think about President Chen, I still believe that a Taiwan ruled, and maybe eventually run down to the ground by a Taiwanese, is better than foreign government far away who needs to be busy focusing on improving the lives of its people than sending astronauts to space or whatever next venture they're attempting to embark on.

I got the term "backwards" from people of before who think Taiwanese believe that mainlanders are backwards. I don't know what they really mean by backwards either, I think it means the way they live. Because many Caucasians I meet here in Canada think that in China they are all a bunch of rice or tea farmers who live in squalor and poverty.

Most of the Chinese in America and Canada are Taiwanese?
In my experience, Taiwanese are still the minority among the immigrants here (in Calgary). Most people here speak Cantonese, and if they are Mandarin speakers, they're usually young Chinese immigrant students, or at least a family of people from China. But that's just the people I've met.

I'm glad we're allowed to talk about this in a civil manner on this forum instead of a shouting match.
Thanks everyone. I'm really attempting to understand why my family has such a dislike of mainlanders, and trying to rid myself of that dislike as much as possible without putting it on people who don't deserve bad treatment from me.

[scarletwillow]

Exactly what ethnicity are you, Judes?
Most modern-day Taiwanese came over as mainlanders.

I don't think you have your history straight, either.
You say that China simply handed Taiwan over?
China handed Taiwan over to Japan after China lost the Sino-Japanese war. It's not like they WANTED to give it over.
Although yes, now that I realize you're talking about mainlanders in the sense of Chiang Kai-shek, etc, I can understand.

When I said the Taiwanese welcomed the Japanese, I was referring to the Nationalists.

Hehe, I guess the best solution is to kill them, then.

[judes]

I'm seventh or eighth generation Taiwanese.
Maybe even more, my father isn't too sure.
He said we might even be tenth generation.
My roots are from China though, I don't deny that.

I didn't mean that China simply handed Taiwan over to Japan. Of course there was war involved, but it wasn't like Taiwanese held parades to welcome the Japanese in. The Nationalist Party did have good relations with Japan though, which annoys me. Maybe we can push them back and forth between the two lands until they all fall into the strait. Heh.

[scarletwillow]

I'm all for a China for the Chinese.
I despise both the Nationalists and the Communists, so it's all good.

My only wish is that the Chinese people reunite under one flag and one name and resolve all the political bullshit that's happened.

[kewlpiggy88]

right now this issue seems to focus more on the reasons why taiwans is forcing its own identity and how taiwanese look down on chian but i want to know why you guys think taiwan shouldn't be left alone, and given complete independence. yes, they have cultural ties, historical ties, etc. but it's not like they receive aid from china (granted, they probably get money from US).

besides the one culture, the one people, the one history, what are other reasons? is it because you see too many similarities between the people culturally and historically that they might as well just be one country?

and the point of taiwanese looking down - i believe it's more of wishing china would stop bothering taiwan and threatening. and also, it goes both ways (read to my last post) - people from china look down to taiwan as well.

my mom is what they call "ben shen ren", my dad "wai shen ren". my grandpa really does not like affiliation with china, but my mom still married my dad, didn't she? and i know my dad's brother married a 客家人.

[JianDan[Ai]]

I personally think its not that we dont allow them to be independent, but the government have proven it is not capable of it. Right now it feeds a lot off the US, and the US used Taiwan as well.

I think that a China and Taiwan united state would be a much better state then to independent countries, both economically and politically. Im not saying that we hafta crush the Taiwanese cultural identity. People in Texas are very different than Hawaii, than in Maine, but they are all under the same government and the same flag. Im sure jLo will support me on this.

[kewlpiggy88]

mm, but how would it be better off in a communist governement setting?

i also have a question. when did simplified chinese start? like whoever thought of it and when? because i never knew there was such thing as simplified until the last two years. and i'm really confused who uses it. i know china and singapore use it. and i'm pretty sure hk, and i know tw uses traditional. is there a reason? this girl told me it's because that there's so many people so it's easier+quicker. but i dunno, that sounds weird.

[scarletwillow]

right now this issue seems to focus more on the reasons why taiwans is forcing its own identity and how taiwanese look down on chian but i want to know why you guys think taiwan shouldn't be left alone, and given complete independence. yes, they have cultural ties, historical ties, etc. but it's not like they receive aid from china (granted, they probably get money from US).

besides the one culture, the one people, the one history, what are other reasons? is it because you see too many similarities between the people culturally and historically that they might as well just be one country?

and the point of taiwanese looking down - i believe it's more of wishing china would stop bothering taiwan and threatening. and also, it goes both ways (read to my last post) - people from china look down to taiwan as well.

my mom is what they call "ben shen ren", my dad "wai shen ren". my grandpa really does not like affiliation with china, but my mom still married my dad, didn't she? and i know my dad's brother married a 客家人.

How would you like it if half of Taiwan broke off and wanted to form independence?
That's why.
It's simply not acceptable to just break up and gain independence.

Simplified Chinese I think, was set up by the Commies.
Remember, the Communist regime started out as a government for the people.
The vast majority of Chinese at the time were uneducated illiterates... simplified is just much easier.

[JianDan[Ai]]

I never suggested that Taiwan and China reunite under a communist regime. The Taiwanese government as well should go without saying.

I want to add that just because your country holds elections, it does not mean you are a democracy. Especially if those elections do not mean anything.

And as for Simplied Chinese was started by the communists so it would be easier for the masses of illierate and uneducated to learn.

[Squall]

I would say Respect the people decision.
If taiwanese want independence,just give them that..
what is the use of getting the land when the heart of the people are not with China..

East Timor gain independence after their people voted for it.The UN stopped the Indonesia from harming the people.
East Timor was part of Indonesia.This is like China and taiwan.If the people want independence,China should not stop it


The world should not be afraid of China..they should unite against such bullying act.

[Vicluva]

If you say 'Respect the people', then what about the 'people' of China? If you're just going to give Taiwan independence because the people say so, then you should technically keep Taiwan a part of China because the Chinese people say so. Are you saying the opinions of people in Taiwan means more than the opinions of people in China?

Indonesia occupied East Timor in the first place, East Timor was a Portuguese colony before that, so it's a different situation to Taiwan and China, since Taiwan land is originally Chinese land.

Why does Taiwan want Independence? They're ashamed of China, that's why. People who are ashamed of their own country when that countr hasn't done anything to them don't deserve rights. It is not a bullying act so much as a righteous slap in the face of ungratefulness.

[scarletwillow]

If you say 'Respect the people', then what about the 'people' of China? If you're just going to give Taiwan independence because the people say so, then you should technically keep Taiwan a part of China because the Chinese people say so. Are you saying the opinions of people in Taiwan means more than the opinions of people in China?

Indonesia occupied East Timor in the first place, East Timor was a Portuguese colony before that, so it's a different situation to Taiwan and China, since Taiwan land is originally Chinese land.

Why does Taiwan want Independence? They're ashamed of China, that's why. People who are ashamed of their own country when that countr hasn't done anything to them don't deserve rights. It is not a bullying act so much as a righteous slap in the face of ungratefulness.

I love you.

But no, Squall, your thinking is wrong.
Just because the people want independence... well, that sort of thinking never works.
What you fail to realize is that ultimately, government is not here to represent the people. It's there to make choices for the people.
Who is it really that wants independence from China?
Is it the politicians? Or the common people?
Do the people who want independence know what they're doing?
Do they know what's going to happen if they declare full independence?
I don't think they know, but I'd sure be happy to show them.

If I wanted to create my own country, I'm voting for myself.
I want it to be my piece of land. Why can't I do that? Because it's a stupid choice--because as soon as I set up my own sovereign government, I'll get my ass shot down. And that's EXACTLY what's going to happen to Taiwan if they make such a choice.

And Squall, who's the bully?
Hmm?
Is it China, who wants to reunite with its own blood?
Or Taiwan, who rides on USA's dick and destroys the peace process by declaring independence?
You decide.

[kewlpiggy88]

so by constantly threatening taiwan, china is keeping the peace? and it's not like taiwan just randomly wants independence.

[judes]

I want to add that just because your country holds elections, it does not mean you are a democracy. Especially if those elections do not mean anything.
Do not mean anything? Please elaborate. It's not like the communist government gives aid to Taiwan or helped it got to the place it is today by direct intention. The government in Taiwan now isn't great, but it isn't absolute crap. If you're talking about acknowledgement of Taiwan as a separate country, then to the world it may not mean much, but to the people of Taiwan, it is everything.

Why does Taiwan want Independence? They're ashamed of China, that's why. People who are ashamed of their own country when that countr hasn't done anything to them don't deserve rights. It is not a bullying act so much as a righteous slap in the face of ungratefulness.
Uh. Of course I'm ashamed by China. A place where the average income per year is around $1000. Haven't done anything to them? I believe I spent my last several posts explaining how China kicked Taiwan in the ass. Taiwan doesn't owe the Chinese government anything. I'm all for uniting for the people, but NOT for a government who supports (and PAID for) a Chinese Grand Prix for the rich of the nation to piss it off in some scheme to prove that they are just as much of a 'world power'.

I do not think that the communists are reuniting Taiwan with the mainland because it wants its own blood to return. I would rather have Taiwan feed off U.S. handouts than having to pay taxes to feed the poor in China without getting anything in return. That being said, I would rather be used by someone and getting protection, than be sucked dry by a government who is absolutely wasteful and preaches a stupid ideology.

...for a noble purpose such as uniting the Chinese people. That is so idealistic, and so unrealistic.

[JianDan[Ai]]

In no sense of anger towards you judes, but you would rather that Taiwan be the US's pawn in gettin its foot up China's ass than if they got back together?

I will admit that the chances of what me and jlo want, are terribly low, and will most likely never happen. However it doesnt hurt to work for a better relationship between the two.

And as for those elections you wanted me to clarify on, there is clearly a lot of doubt over the election, election process, as well as the election results. The absolute funniest thing I find in that election, was the "attempted" assination of the president. A bullet, that was going fast enough to rip thru his jacket and give him a nice bruise down the side, somehow was not fast enough to get out of the jacket. -_-;; (To be clearer, the bullet was found inside his jacket) Not to mention a cut and bruise with a diameter of at least 3-4 inches, yet he did not feel a thing until after the parade. Another interesting fact, all the pictures of that bruise, are only of the torso, never do you find a picture with the president's head and the bruise in the same picture. How do we even know thats his body? I also remember the % of votes being outrageously improbable, for any election. I also remember there were missing votes, like 10% of the ballots were "lost." -_-

Anyhow, there were lots of other screwy things about that election. So I'm just saying, democracy is not defined by holding elections. Elections are simply one step of the freedom and rights of the people, and their way of using their rights to choose their officals in the governement. But isn't the whole purpose of an election defeated if the incumbent uses his power to manipulate the results?

[Squall]

Who is it really that wants independence from China?
Is it the politicians? Or the common people?

They can always do a UN sanction referendum..
and it will be fair
then we will see if the common people want independence

[judes]

To tell you the truth, I don't like the situation that Taiwan is in. But it's once again choosing between two evils. My choice is based on history and also on the situation at the present time. I'm sure that in the future my stance might vary, such as in the instance of China scrapping its current government and getting a new one that's for the people.

You know, I had my doubts about that assassination too.
Still, there was a recount, and 10% of the "scrapped" votes you speak about? The majority of those were actually for President Chen when they recounted. There are a lot of people who dislike President Chen, and their voice is heard loud and clear, yet I don't think people remind themselves enough that they ARE heard because they're in a democracy. We don't hear about the greatness of President Chen and the propaganda of President Chen being the best thing to ever fall on earth from Heaven in order to rule Taiwan or something.

One step forward is better than none at all. I'm actually glad that people voice their disagreements with his government, it means that change will happen, governments will have to change their platforms and improve in order to stay in power.

And here's a question for everybody:
What would be the benefits of Taiwan's reunification with China? Besides Chinese people reuniting under a common flag?

[Squall]

And here's a question for everybody:
What would be the benefits of Taiwan's reunification with China? Besides Chinese people reuniting under a common flag?
Taiwan may enjoy the economic benefit because China economy is soaring now....
other than that i don't see other benefits.
Maybe we can look at Hong Kong and we will know what will happen to Taiwan

[kewlpiggy88]

even if the attempted assassination WAS fake, it's the people who changed their minds.

[Squall]

I beg to differ that the assassination is fake because the taiwan government did invite many expert from other countries and they conclude it is a real shooting..
and if it is really fake,the KMT people will still be rallying outside :D

[scarletwillow]

They can always do a UN sanction referendum..
and it will be fair
then we will see if the common people want independence

The UN is a sack of shit.
They are anything but fair--they suppress the poor nations of the world just as well as any powerful country does.
They are horribly corrupt, and anything overseen by the UN is anything but fair.

And here's a question for everybody:
What would be the benefits of Taiwan's reunification with China? Besides Chinese people reuniting under a common flag?
1. A bigger political presence in Asia
2. A bigger economic presence in Asia
3. Improved conditions for people in the mainland
4. Less stress between the peoples of China and Taiwan
5. Less negative foreign influence
6. Improved trade relations
7. Taiwan and China become a combined nuclear power
8. Taiwan gets protection from North Korea
9. A boost in both region's economies--China has the resources, Taiwan has the technique
10. No need to waste so much money on weapons anymore ^_~

[judes]

improved conditions for people in the mainland? please explain.

you actually think that if taiwan goes back to china, there will be less stress between the people? hmm. because i think it will take generations for the problems to lessen, and perhaps there might be even greater tension. actually...perhaps? i feel like the problems will get even worse.

protection from north korea? i've never heard this point before. what do you mean?

the economics part i cannot disagree with. but i see great restrictions coming from the government who knows nothing about how taiwan economy works and destroying the whole island for the future.

[scarletwillow]

improved conditions for people in the mainland? please explain.

you actually think that if taiwan goes back to china, there will be less stress between the people? hmm. because i think it will take generations for the problems to lessen, and perhaps there might be even greater tension. actually...perhaps? i feel like the problems will get even worse.

protection from north korea? i've never heard this point before. what do you mean?

the economics part i cannot disagree with. but i see great restrictions coming from the government who knows nothing about how taiwan economy works and destroying the whole island for the future.

First of all, I assume that if Taiwan joins the mainland, the two governments will fuse, not one taking over the other. Of course, best case scenario, an entirely new government takes over (not Nationalist, not Commie).

1. Improved Conditions: Normally, if higher society (Taiwan) and lower society (Mainland) combine, higher society's standards remain the same, while lower society's standards increase.
2. Improved Relations: Suppose the day China and Taiwan rejoin is designated as a national holiday. Wouldn't YOU feel obligated to celebrate this coming together as a great step forwards? Think about it. What will happen when North and South Korea join? Will they fire guns at each other? Or will parted families rejoice at seeing each other again?
3. Protection from North Korea: China is the only East Asian country immune from North Korean attack, should there be one. Japan is a prime target of nuclear missiles, if they ever launch any, because of the American bases there, and because of North Korea's extreme hatred for Japan. In fact, Japan is probably more at risk than South Korea. Anyhow... because China is the only country (in the world) that's at good terms with North Korea, the threat level to Taiwan would be significantly reduced.
4. A greater economy: Assuming that the Communist regime holds, I think that if Taiwan rejoins the Mainland, there is no way China could possibly damage it. The focus will be diplomacy and political issues, not economy. The only economic impact would be decreased trade with the US... and Taiwan just buys weapons from them, anyways.

[kewlpiggy88]

but what about hong kong? their economy went way down after the 1997 handover (i think it was 1997).

[scarletwillow]

Oh, and the rest of the world has been soaring high?

Don't look at one without looking at the rest.

EDIT:
Perhaps my tone went over-top.

[jjfgirl]

this debate will never end. honestly, all i want is for china to leave taiwan alone and let us do our own thing. let us join the united nations. don't prevent WHO from coming to us when we have SARS.

whoever said that people in the u.s. don't want taiwan to be separate is wrong. because i am from the u.s. and i hope that taiwan is free very soon.

p.s. jules is very cool. makes a lot of good points. :thumbsup:

also, i don't see taiwan "going back" to china. [it was never part of china.] because taiwan has been too free for too long. once you're a democracy, you can't go back. china would have to make some real changes. :-x

[tearstained7987]

personally i dont care that taiwan is independent. LET THEM BE INDEPENDENT. i just want the US to mind their own businness...

-amie

[scarletwillow]

The ONLY, and I repeat, the ONLY thing keeping China from using force is the USA, so Tearstained, you watch your mouth dearie :)

jjfgirl: No.

[JianDan[Ai]]

jjfgirl: No.

jjfgirl: Double No.

Some of you people need to chill. "LET THEM BE INDEPENDET!!!" - -;; The whole point of me and SW's arguements are to argue and convince otherwise. Why they should reunite with China for a mutual benefit. You can stop treating us as if we are threatening free speech and democracy and that we are 2 crazy commies. (Which now that I think about it, I rather be a commies than a pawn to screw over my own people for the US) Furthermore, our criticism of Taiwan is mostly directed at the governement, and their misleading of the people and the entire country, a government which is educated and paid for by your good ol USA. And this should go without saying, but the US only does whats best for itself, don't even pretend that the US cares about Taiwan or the Taiwanese people.

[xinerz]

']And this should go without saying, but the US only does whats best for itself, don't even pretend that the US cares about Taiwan or the Taiwanese people.

US doesn't not care about Taiwan or Taiwanese people. have you looked at Bush's policy lately? he's been doing a better job about taiwanese independence than kerry has. the dems really did pick the wrong guy this time. i find myself slowly and slowly drifting republican; they're taiwanese policy is just so much better than kerry's. bush and the reps don't want war with china, but they also don't want china to keep holding their commie hold on taiwan. china's not bad, they're just kinda 'backwards' in some of their thinkings like govermental policies. certainly the states' do care about Taiwan; they just do not want to see a war between china and Taiwan over independence. i personally think that if these tensions keep heating up, there will be a Formosa strait war soon.

tearstained, the US does mind our own business. we don't have our noses in china and Taiwan's fued; but we certainly do have our opinions. we haven't labeled china as an 'axis of evil', nor will we label Taiwan as an 'axis of evil'. you may criticize our policy of Iraq *i do too, i don't like bush's handling of the war, nor do i like the war itself* but we certanily will not march overseas and try to control these two countries.

[JianDan[Ai]]

Haha Thats a very sheltered look at it. I wish I could say "yes America cares about the world. We Americans care about how other are doing." Wow, I'm getting quite a good laugh.

No offense xinerz, but you are terribly mistaken. I don't know the specifics of Bush's plan towards Taiwan, nor Kerry's quite frankly cuz I don't care, they are close enough to the same for me, no matter what they are.

-edit-
after re-reading xinerz post up there, this thought came to mind
Being an American citizen, what you just said, should it be true, would only be another reason for Chinese and Taiwanese people to vote for Kerry. America is in a wreck. No question about it. The president to be (which by now is Bush -_-) SHOULD concentrate more on his own country than others. (I still don't know either of their plans for Taiwan and I STILL dont care, Im just going off what you are saying) The only reason bush is being nice and handing out cookies to everyone else is because he DESPERATELY needs support for his operations in Iraq, Afganistan and other parts of the middle east. You saw how during the debates, he emphasized how Poland was our ally. WTF? WHO THE HELL CARES ABOUT POLAND? They are not a world power, not even close, so (sadly i guess) their support in a international operation is completly worthless. Yet being one of America's 3 allies, Bush cannot let 33.3% of the reason why his fight against Iraq is the right thing to do be forgotten. Its really not that hard to see through their motives.
-end of edit

Allow me to explain why the US doesn't give rusted old outdated military ships about Taiwan. (They charge ~_^ ) China is the largest last communist country in the world. If you know anything about American history during the time after WWII, Americans have been, excuse my language, scared shitless that the commies will slowly take over the free world. Every single war that the US has participated in outside of the middle east has been over stopping communist growth. The Korean War, the vietnam war, even the cold war(which technically isnt a war depending on how you wanna define it). There have also been many scares with events such as the Cuban Missle Crisis which made the Americans quite literally pee in their pants.

Now, image the the most greatly populated country in the world, with growing technology and educated workforce being a communist country, lets call this country China :shifty:. Such a powerful, and steadily growing nation, is far too much for the American military. So how should America manipulate this country so that it can try to get a chip on the bargaining table should they ever feel China is out of line. That bargaining chip needs to be something that China values and that America can get its greasy hands on. Here's an idea, how about some chinese people! Wow, those crackheads in the white house are some piece of work aren't they?

So, now that I feel we are all on the same page, America noticed this opportunity to get a foothold in Taiwan early on, im not sure on the dates, but im sure by the 60's if not earlier. They supported Taiwan with only one purpose, to get the people's trust and admiration. Now Taiwan thinks its got its independence with the US backing it up, when really the US is using Taiwan to let China know, "We own Taiwan now, we call the shots of what President Chen does. " So basically America has this on china, so when it comes to things in the UN or other world organizations where China, like America is a permanent chair member, to vote on motions as America wants. It also prevents China from basically ever reuniting with Taiwan, as (1) the Taiwanese are basically for the most part, already won over, and (2) America wont allow it. A unifted China and Taiwan, weather communist or not will without a doubt become the world power (unless maybe japan, america, britain, and australia get together). America doesnt want that either, espically if it should be communist.

Look at it like this, America and China as too teenagers who got beef. China has a little brother, who China neglected for a while since another teenager Japan started making trouble in the Neighborhood. By the time China can attend to his little brother again, America used cheap candy to lure the little brother to his side and now uses him against his Big Brother. Now America uses little brother Taiwan to help him make China give up homework answers and vote for America as class president.

----

On the side I want emphasize that America does NOT have a record of helping other countries with nothing in return. EVERY international affair that america embarks on, is done so because America has much to gain from it, even if it may seem like they get nothing at first. America is often after money, selling its used old worthless crap (weapons) to other countries whom may or not need it. (ironically some of those pieces of crap come back to shoot america soldiers when the people they sold them to get out of hand). Sometimes it is after trust and admiration. (makes sense, America is full of cocky arrogant bastards -_-) This trust and admiration can also later on translate into votes at the UN or possibly other favor in return, as well as the gained respect of other world powers. But more likely than not, its to get one of America's many feet up someone else's ass.

[judes]

My criticism of China is of its government too.
I don't think the communist government does enough for its people.
Like I mentioned, the Chinese Grand Prix. That makes me sick.

President Chen's relation with U.S. has been shaky lately too though, due to the missile thing, and of course...Taiwanese independence, even when the Americans warned Taiwan not to do anything about that. There was also that referendum (even if not enough people participated), it was still a sign that President Chen is willing to forego what the international community thinks for Taiwanese independence. Which I admire greatly.

I also said before that politics is an important point that Taiwan should not reunite with the mainland. I have no faith that China will back up its promise of allowing Taiwan's government to remain the way it is. They will send more mainlanders over to control, to show propaganda. And with the Taiwanese people used to complaining, holding rallies, protests, it will get very ugly when that happens. A lot of people will die.

I know that if Taiwan does declare independence, people will die too when China fires missiles at the island. But I would rather die fighting for my nation, my cause, than to slowly submit to the rule of a terrible government. The people of the world have a right to be afraid of communist rule. Because in a capitalist/democratic society, at least we know that we're in it for self interest, and also, to achieve because of our own abilities.

I do not live for my neighbour, I do not expect my neighbour to live for me.
I will work for my family, and then offer help to my neighbour if he needs it, but for the entire country to carry the weight of everybody on their backs...Pity is the first thing to go when you have the ideal that we should all work for the collective, because the collective doesn't give a damn about you.