Progress in Chinese Capitalism

[scarletwillow]

If anyone has been following the news lately, they've likely heard of the US 18.5 billion bid by CNOOC, a Chinese oil company, for Unocal, an American company. Although Chevron originally won the auction at 16.7 billion, and it's fairly certain the deal will go to them, it's still made waves economically and politically--why? Because it's China, and it'll be the biggest Chinese buyout of an American company in history.

Let's face it, it's not the 1920's, and China isn't the world's toilet anymore.

Chinese compter maker Lenovo already bought out IBM.
And Haier, China's largest appliance company, which already has a huge presence in America, made a proposal to buy Maytag, producer of washing machines and the like.

Blind capitalism isn't all great though--South Korea may be in an economic boom, but it's in a social nightmare. Is China to follow? Chinese health officials claim that smoking is good for the body--a blatant lie, but all to increase sales of state-owned tobacco.

What are your thoughts? Happy that China is growing? Sad it's going so fast?

[lovingjay]

Interesting topic.

I think it was obvious that some day, China will become an industrious country. I mean, just look at Wal-Mart. Most of the stuff that is sold there is from China, thus the low prices they are able to give. And a lot of companies are outsourcing now because it's cheaper. And the population is HUGE! There are so many people living in China. But I also remember reading somewhere about how there might be an AIDS problem and how people sell their blood for money and the blood isn't checked for diseases.....
I guess it isn't bad that China is growing, it's just that I don't think they have a good enough foundation to flourish at such a pace. I think they are just growing a bit too fast with all the new buildings and companies. They need to take it slow and try to have a better governing body.

[scarletwillow]

Well, I think it's fairly unanimously agreed that communism is the best idea to come to political theory in the last few centuries, but also the worst, most unrealistic idea to be carried out in reality.

I agree that China is growing a bit too fast--blind consumerism leads to nothing but social and cultural poison.

I often point to Singpapore as a good model of business and government, although I do believe, and tell me if I'm wrong, that Singapore's government does tend to put business a little ahead of its other agendas.

Shanghai is very quickly becoming the new 1970's Manhattan, with property prices and development going way over the roof.

What I am worried about, a bit, is the amount of foreign influence on Shanghai development--I've read several articles in The Economist and other journals on the extent of foreign development in Shanghai--interestingly, villas in the style of German hamlets are even popping up, and at exorbitant prices.

Being a strict nationalist, I have serious problems with this. Not in the sense of style, but in the sense of culturalism.

[KendoTiger]

Despite the capitalistic action of CNOOC to buy out Unocal, you can't deny that there are possible political overtones to this bid. Unocal mainly provides oil to Southeast Asia, and with the PRC's actions to expand over the last few years, you have to question if it was endorsed by upper party members for that purpose. Either way, I believe that the purchase would have been beneficial for China ~ not only would it show the increasing capitalism within the country, but benefit both China and Unocal.

Unfortunately, Bush, Congress, and a few others would rather keep Unocal in American hands ~ claiming national security. So they interfere with business by passing regulations and special orders to stop the transaction; Hooray for Chevron ~ bet the politicians are getting a few kickbacks from it >_>.

It's true that when a country goes into an economic frenzy, the interaction with the international market is increased, and this leads to foreign ideas entering the country. Honestly, I really believe that some of these ideas are slowly destroying Chinese societal and cultural traditions. And yet, I don't believe that China should "bury it's head in the sand".

Looking to the past, during the imperial days of China, a decidedly isolationist attitude took hold ~ to prevent any european "poison". It was the reason they were set back so long, and only have recently (50yrs or so) have reached a comparable level.

Interaction allows for change for the better. Besides, if you really don't like the repression of Chinese culture, the Communists did have a 50 or so year cultural purge, in which even the Shaolin monks were destroyed. Yeah, only 6 survived. Anyways ~

What you have to do is balance the cultural influx and change it brings, with the ability to interact with the world.

[masterxkae]

My parents say that in about 10-15 years, China's economy will be better than the US. (?) I can actually understand if it does. Afterall, China does have a large population, and on top of that, Asians work HARD. Honestly, I don't think China is growing fast at all. And it's true that everything we own, it's produced/manufactured in china. The only problem is that a lot of the chinese population born after WWII are so uneducated and uncivilized!

I went to china in '04, hoping to buy some gundams... but the shop that is across from the Gundam store started yelling and threatening us because my cousin was about to sit on their chair (wth!!) And said all these nonesense and really dumb stuff. Also, people spit and pee everywhere.

[u154801]

laughs

basically i dont goto china just HONG KONG
but yeah i know what u mean about uncivilized bit .........
i think china has some city which is like a super city like hk and that of western cities
but becoz china is so big its bound to have a ton of those cities where its really bad like u said maybe even worst in some

But yeah china production is just gonna rule the world also u forgot that china has less laws about minimum pay and sweet shop productions etc....... which the USA was like shouting back out to china and trying to do all sorts to unsettle the china in the world trade organisations....... i mean in china the pay is so low its great for businesss if i was a business men i set nike to make shoes there rather then usa

[countess]

Sorry, this is a little off-topic but i was watching a doco on China's economic rise and industrial boom today. One of the problems that it it addressed was the amount of carbon emissions that China is producing due to the industial boom. There is no denial that China is producing tonnes of toxic emissions that will destroy our environment but they are doing exactly what the developed countries eg. USA, Japan, etc. did in the past. So i guess in a way it is unfair to force the Chinese government to stop just as it is developing.

The increase in cars in China is tremendous, and due to the size of its populations; pollution is everywhere. The government have tried to come up with plans to decrease carbon emissions but there is no end in sight. Hydrogen cars? Where do they get the hydrogen from? By burning coal it will create huge amounts of toxic gases to d thay anyways. If they take it from water, it will need more energy than ever and energy equals coal burning. So, i guess there is no way we can stop a growing country from polluting the earth.

Anyways, back to topic..

scarletwillow
What I am worried about, a bit, is the amount of foreign influence on Shanghai development--I've read several articles in The Economist and other journals on the extent of foreign development in Shanghai--interestingly, villas in the style of German hamlets are even popping up, and at exorbitant prices.

I agree, i go to Shanghai just about every year and the change is always so dramatic. Apparently over 100 skyscrapers are being built every day!! (no too sure on the credibility of that...so don't quote me). The new apartments are so over-priced people living in outside of China (like US, AUS,UK) can barely affort them even with the cool currency rate we have against China's. The ironic thing is, buildings which are barely 2 years old look like they've been there for decades...due to pollution levels. All these "new" buildings are grey and have crap all over them..its really sad as i always wonder why Shanghai still doesn't look nice after all it's make-overs...I don't know much about the cultural thing..i guess it's reasonable to have some French inspired housing due to Shanghai's history, but German?

u154801 Ahh Sweatshops... we can seriously start a whole debate on that. Basically there is no solution in sight...If you use sweatshops it is officially a violation of human rights, it's cruel to see people,even children working as slaves and get almost nothing in return. However, if you cut off all sweatshops then all thses people will probably die anyways and consumers will pay more for their stuff. So, in conclusion....WE LIVE IN A SCREWED UP WORLD!! (sorry if i sound cynical..)

[scarletwillow]

A quick mention on the housing projects I mentioned:
Here is what irks me; it's mainly not Chinese who are settling into these expensive apartments and villas.
It's foreigners.

What's being created is a caste of rich foreigners and poor or average Chinese in a very Chinese city. Neo Imperialism Lite, if you will.

I'll write more later. Just got back from work.

EDIT:
On the subject of sweatshops; at this point in time, in Asia, they are a necessity. China's growth as an economic powerhouse requires for its goods to be above the rest of the international market's.

As you may have heard, quality directly competes with quality.
Unless there is an external factor, like better technology, a superior sociopolitical situation, or the like, it is not possible for China to produce greater quality goods with its volume of people, China cannot afford to sell goods at any higher a price and still be such a major center of outsourcing.

No matter how cruel, it is necessary at this point.
Once China's politico has matured, then is the time to fight it.

[KendoTiger]

That's true - one of the reasons why smaller countries have had an easier time with industrialization is the size of the country. With a generally new and small country, the time it takes to create new technology, raise general education, and the like, is much shorter. If China did not have its sweatshops - regardless of how cruel they are - the country of China would not be able to compete on an international level with foreign companies, and it is likely that China would become even poorer.

For the foreign construction - it's most likely that due to the exchange rate, their money "goes farther", to where a small fortune in a western country, would be enough to wallow in when in China. They build styles they are comfortable with because they feel that China should accept them, not that they should accept China. *shrugs* just an opinion.

Hydrogen is actually one of the most plentiful elements in existance (even moreso than Carbon, I believe), so it isn't the "finding it" part that is hard, it's the refinement of it, and the technology needed to make it economically feasible (sp).

I do agree though that it is hypocritical for the US and other Western countries (Japan isn't western...) to critisize China for it's pollution, but there is a point to it. On one hand, you can't mandate which countries can or can't pollute as they expand, but you can't just let them get away with it. The best thing would be to produce limits that would allow for growth (scientifically selected?) while limiting the total amount of pollution. Right up, if we could stop bitching about stupid shit, and work together as a unified world ~ yeah, that'll be soon ~ then we could end poverty, pollution, lack of education, and raise the standard of living of everyone, etc. The only problem is that people are, by nature, very self-centered. Yeah, sucks :p

[will_zhng]

I dont really think the houses are small at all, nor do i think there's to much pollution......ill just stop here to not get carried away.

[masterxkae]

I dont really think the houses are small at all, nor do i think there's to much pollution......ill just stop here to not get carried away.

Don't stop there! I really want to hear what you have to say! Because I personally think the houses are small. Even the apartments in China that cost millions of dollar, they still don't compare to an apartment in the US. And the price of the apartments in hk is just ridiculous! My grandpa's brother (I don't know what to call him) lives in an apartment in SHAU KEI WAN in Hk and it's smaller than the size of my parent's bedroom... and it is worth over 6 million dollar! But yeah, that's kind of um off topic :bleh:

[scarletwillow]

I dont really think the houses are small at all, nor do i think there's to much pollution......ill just stop here to not get carried away.

Where the hell did you visit?
Houses not small?
Not much pollution?

There's an aviation joke amongst Chinese pilots.
If you're ever lost amongst the clouds high, search for the plume of smoke. That's Beijing,

[hisashiluv14]

That is just sad, the level of pollution in Beijing.

The only thing that I'm worried about with regard to China's rise as an economic powerhouse is the possibility of it being culturally-raped. Now, I don't know much about Chinese-ness but I'm damn proud of our legacy and history all the same. With brand proliferation and the rapid Americanisation that's happening in China, I'm not sure if it'd even BE China a few more years down the road. Nike raped kungfu with its insipid LeBron James ad, and that's just one example out of many which I don't even know of.

You have to give up something in order to gain something else, but giving up culture for economic progress is too heavy a price to pay in my opinion.

[will_zhng]

i lived in some place called nanjing, and because of my grandpa was a major during his days at war, we got to live in an abandoned japanese house after ww2, and its pretty big, and i dun think its that bad pollution wise

[scarletwillow]

i lived in some place called nanjing, and because of my grandpa was a major during his days at war, we got to live in an abandoned japanese house after ww2, and its pretty big, and i dun think its that bad pollution wise

Um, yeah.
As if the Japanese were modest in China.

[KendoTiger]

So he is a communist! -o-

Of course, communist leaders get big rewards, while farmers are left in the dirt. Spread the wealth? Never, that's not the point of communism!

Getting back, most of the pollution comes from the industrial parts of the cities, not the "nice and clean" area ~ it just happens that the smoke diffuses around.

China is either expensive or cheap depending on where you want to live.

[will_zhng]

Well, thats pretty obvious KendoTiger, or else why do u think im always backing up my country's motives?? Personally, what farmers do is their business, im not in the dirt, therefore i dont care. Seeing that u care bout life of farmers so much Maybe you are a farmer.

[KendoTiger]

*beats up wll zhng with a shovel*

huuuaaaahhh!

No, I just believe that if someone champions a cause they don't follow, they are hypocrites. I don't wish for economic equality ~ that's just stupid. I want economic equity. Something that China has been slowly moving towards. Noting that I am more in support of China's changing economy compaired to it's dawdling political change.

Since you don't care about anyone underneath you, "in the dirt", I'm wondering if you know about Mao's stress on the farmers, rather than Lenin's industrialites, as the support of the communist revolution.

Getting back to point, I'm wondering if anyone has any news on China's decision on the Yuan reevaluation. I believe they are keeping it set at what it was ~ but that doing so could actually hurt Chinese business by devaluing high-level goods in favor of cheap mass production. Any thoughts?

[kewlpiggy88]

I think they made the yuan like 2% higher a week or two ago...it's supposed to be good for foreigners because countries like the US were complaining that the exchange rate was unfair or something. anyway, a lot of people say that china is going to be like the next big thing because they just have a HUGE HUGE HUGE consumer market. and i think china's exports have already surpassed the US's. The sad thing is that the farmers are still in a very poor state while the rich are just getting richer and richer.

How much are apartments in Shanghai anyway? I think Shanghai has always been like the place where foreigners go. My dad went on a business trip a couple of years ago and said it was really pretty and clean.