The existence of God.

[twilighthush]

Since I've been kind of MIA due to massive amounts of schoolwork, I figured I'd return with a nice Big Bang of a debate. (Haha, pun intended.)

So, I've been doing a lot of thinking lately, and I figured it'd be interesting for me to broach on a subject that is constantly debated and has been debated before here in the past. But I wanted to talk -- not so much about whether or not God exists -- but everyone's personal philosophical views and logical reasoning behind why they believe God does or does not exist.

I'm really curious about everyone right now, and I'd like to start a bit of a debate.

But I just wanted to point out two key points before we go anywhere from here:

1.) A debate does not equal a hostile argument.
2.) A debate does not allow any room for insults.

With that said, I have a few questions!

- Do you believe that God (i.e. Judeo-Christian-Islamic Conception) exists? If so, how do you know that he exists? If not, why don't you believe that he exists?

- Do you believe in God? If you believe in God, why do you believe in God? If you don't believe in God, why don't you believe in God?

Discuss and debate at will! I'm very excited about what everyone's thoughts/conceptions/ideas are.

[KendoTiger]

Hmm, this is a hard topic, because there are so many counter arguments, and little of it is based on logic, but on faith and conviction ~

So, I'll just write about random things that come to my head, and hopefully put an opinion at the end of it. Most of the arguments and counters are made by moderate views ~ as only die hard fanatics, of either side, will demand that their view alone is certain truth. And don't ask me to provide examples and quotes ~ I'm only putting the views out there for you to think about.

Well, for a lot of people, their belief in God stems from the Holy Texts ~ such as the Bible, the Talmud, Quran, etc. Their view is based around the concept that this text represents the wish of God and how He wants you to live.

The only problem is that logically speaking, these Holy Texts are full of inaccuracies, contradictions, and human bias. Therefore, it becomes a debate of whether the Text represents His wishes, or is merely the word of man ~ most theologists can argue that it is man's impure interpretation of His wishes, etc.

Such contradictions include the Homer Simpson question, "If God is so powerful, could he make a burrito so hot, even He couldn't eat it". Yes, theologists will counter ~ "God goes beyond your understanding, so is there really even a burrito in the first place?" Or more serious things such as, "If God is all-loving and all-forgiving, why won't he let sinner's into heaven? Wouldn't he forgive them for their sins and for not believing in him?"

Inaccuracies such as Creationism can be countered with the "grand, complicated scheme" of God creating evolution; so, you end up having a large argument about the role God plays in your lives. Does he control all, or give you fate ~ which leads into is God good or evil.

Honestly, I believe that in ten people who preach the word of God, only one really wants, in the bottom of their heart, to help heal people. The other nine are in it for their own selfish reasons. From the Crusades to more modern times, its easily apparent. When people claim that they are only "perverting the word of God", well, probably - but if you look in the actual text, there are racial/religious views present.

Next, you have the people who say "I tried to speak to God, and He didn't answer ~ I really tried, but He didn't tell me anything. Therefore, He doesn't exist." Countered by those preaching "If you don't truely believe in him, than he won't answer you ~ the fact you gave up proves you don't love Him and believe in Him", etc.

There are like, so many more arguments ~ but they usually turn into one person quoting scripture, and the other laughing and calling him/her an idiot. Seen this happen too many times.

Well, I'll put forth my opinion.

On all concious(sp) levels, I believe that out of every religion, Buddhism/Hinduism make the most sense and have the most of my respect.

Because I was raised as a Catholic, on a spiritual level, I hope and pray that He exists. I'm not devout enough to completely give myself to him, at least not yet.

As an animal, I fear that when I die, all that is me will vanish ~ go go sex-drive from mgs* XD

*Metal Gear Solid: Snake is one of the few who does not base his life around the universal drive to reproduce.*

[dagamezmasta]

- Do you believe that God (i.e. Judeo-Christian-Islamic Conception) exists? If so, how do you know that he exists? If not, why don't you believe that he exists?

- Do you believe in God? If you believe in God, why do you believe in God? If you don't believe in God, why don't you believe in God?


i do not believe that God exists. why not? there are so many contradictions, inaccuracies, and such in the bibles of the three major monothiestic religions (as KendoTiger skillfully put), that it does not seem possible that God really exists. If God really is all-knowing, why did he have his own believers slaughtered in the Fourth Crusade? The crusaders shouted, in response to Pop Urban II's First Crusade speech, "God wills it!" The First Crusade was a very successful crusade, but the rest of the crusades were drastic failures. There were so many corrupt popes in history; the history book we use in 7th grade even points it out. Why does God's chosen ones so lack integrity? In my opinion, the only reasonable explanation is that there is no God. Because I believe there is no God, my answer to question #2 is clear; no, I do not believe in God, because I believe there is nothing to believe in. There have been so many different religions since the evolution of man, and now it is accepted widely that all the ancient religions are untrue. Does anyone still believe in the Greek/Roman gods and such? No. Some still believe in polythiestic religions, I admit, but society seems to slowly have started to accept that polythiestic religions don't make sense. When will the world start to realise that it is the same with monthiestic religions?


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping people quite" - Frederick the Great, King of Prussia

[jaychou_21]

I firmly believe that God exists.
I'm not a devout Catholic but my faith is strong because I know that there is one God. :angel:
Logic by itself by all means cannot prove whether God exists or not.
More often than not,it questions the existence of God.
It is basically in the foundation of faith that people will be able to determine the existence of God.
And besides,who would be powerful enough to make the world a dwelling place for human
beings other than God? If there is no God,we wouldn't be here.
In my times of sorrow and trouble,I just look up and call to him
and everytime I whisper a prayer,he responds with a sign.
Some people may not see that sign.But deep within your heart,
either spiritual burden or enlightenment lies in there.Before questioning the existence
of God,we must ask ourselves first : Why are we here? Who gave us life?
Who created the universe and all the living things? They wouldn't just end up there
the way they are right now if they were not made by the Great Creator that is God.

[twilighthush]

KendoTiger -- Thank you for sharing your views. I most certainly agree with many of them, especially with your teleological reasoning that you used by bringing up, what you call, is the Homer Simpson question. That's a very famous argument, actually, and I'm glad you brought it up.

I am curious of two things, however. You say that you believe Buddhism and Hinduism makes the most sense. My first question to you is simple: Why?

My next question to you will be addressed in the next paragraph.

dagamezmasta -- Like KendoTiger, you stated that there are inaccuracies within the Holy Texts and contradictions, which is why you do not believe in God. However, my question to you is simple. Do contradictions prove that God does or does not exist?

It is said that while the "Holy Books" are God's word, he did not write it himself -- that his followers wrote it. Can't it be argued that his followers might have made mistakes through the writing? And how do the contradictions serve as absolute proof that God does or does not exist? Please answer this.

Furthermore, how do you know that God commanded the Crusades to happen in the first place? How do you know that it was not man who believed the Crusades should have occurred in the name of God? How do you know that God believed what the Crusaders was doing was right and supported their indiscriminate annihiliations of other cultures and religions?

Your argument, obviously, is flawed. You can not use such inferences because they do not logically prove or disprove the existence of God with a logical means of connection. Please continue to discuss.

jaychou_21 - I have a few questions for you as well.

First of all, in order to believe that anything exists for absolute certainty, you must be able to prove its existence first, by definition. What is God, to you, by definition?

Second of all, how do you know there is one God? Where is your logical proof or evidence? God can be proved or disproved by means of logical reasoning -- your argument is very much flawed in this sense.

Third of all, you talk of the cosmological argument of the existence of God. My answer to you is quite simple in all of its complexity. You say that something cannot come out of nothing, but quantum physics has proved that something can come out of nothing.

The theory of quantum vacuum fluctuation, which is actually a proven theory because it occurs in nature, and in our bodies every second, states the following:

1. Energy levels in quantum physic is never definite, but made up of probabilities.
2. You are never allowed to have any definite figures in quantum physics.
3. With that said, since you can't have definite figures, we can apply the theory of quantum vacuum fluctuation. In quantum physics, because there are no figures, there is no such thing as energy being at zero since zero is a definite figure. However, because it is not definite, energy can go over zero or under zero. Under zero (i.e. no energy) would mean that the energy doesn't exist. Over zero means it's coming into existence. Because this energy can literally oscillate between under zero and over zero, we have something called virtual particles, which are particles that literally come out of nothing, and occurs when energy ocillates above and below zero.
4. Therefore, if a virtual particle can come into existence from a fluctuation in a vacuum, so can the universe, and ultimately the world.

You can apply the theory of quantum mechanics to how the world first formed its atmosphere -- methane and hydrogen.

In the 1980's a physics scientist conducted an experiment that simulated the conditions of early earth -- he put, in a vacuum chamber -- nothing more than methane and hydrogen -- components that made up the early earth's atmosphere. He also added in things like electric charges, to simulate lightning. After an amount of time, he opened the chamber and what did he discover?

Amino acids and new elements that were not in the simulated atmosphere before (such as Oxygen).

Amino acids are the building blocks of RNA, which are the foundation to DNA, which are ultimately the foundation to human life.

If you are a strong believer of the concept that God created the world in 6 days, you better have a strong argument to prove it when scientists have proven that the earth is between 4 and 5 billion years old, and that humanity has been evolving for millions of years. Our ancestors include the Homo Sapiens (we are Homo Sapien Sapien), the Neanderthals, the Homo Erectus -- and that's just to name a few. Darwin's theory of evolution, applied with modern theories of mutation, proven by mutation in bacteria due to environmental pressures, is one that is commonly accepted by the majority of academic minds everywhere. It is very difficult to disprove evolution due to the sheer amount of physical proof that we have which proves evolution.

There is far more I can say on this topic, but I want to address most of your points briefly before further elaboration.

Now, with that said, you say that all of your prayers are answered by God with a sign. How do you know the sign wasn't something that you created, psychologically, because it was something that you were actively looking for?

Since I've pretty much all but stomped out most of the flaws in your arguments, my greatest question for you ultimately is, as I will reiterate one more time:

How do you know God exists?

To know means you have evidence of his existence.

Where is your evidence?

[KendoTiger]

Alright ~ why they make the most sense.

Besides the fact that there are less flaws ~ in relation to the three things I stated above ~ it is based on the focus of the religion. In Buddhism and Hinduism ~ there is a central focus on improving yourself through meditation and finding ultimate peace with nature. Yeah ~ this isn't exactly the textbook definition of the religions, only my flawed interpretation. On the other hand, Christianity/Judaism/Islam, is focused towards receiving help from Him in return for being "good".

This focus relates to the faithful's actions and sense of self. I've never heard of a Buddhist "killing infedels who blasphemy God", merely because the sense of divinity is not decentralized in the form of another. I mean this in the general sense ~ you cannot look to Heaven as being something you must defend from another, it is reached through your self.

Also, Buddhism and Hinduism ~ and some similar ones ~ are more tolerant and honestly "good" than much of the other religions ~ which are seeming more and more corrupt.

'Cause I feel like being tired out and vague ~ and don't bring up the "praying is meditating".

Now, you're using the argument I set out ~ I should be flattered -_-.
The flaws bring about the existance of God based on human understanding of faith. Uff ~ I'll have to explain...

1) The books are the absolute word of God.
No, reasonably speaking, you can't defend this point of view. There are too many innacuracies. Any kind of "you just can't understand because He's perfect" is just bs because you can't explain them yourself. They are inexplainable.

2) The books were made under His guidance/desire.
The only way this would explain the innaccuracies is if He wanted people to chose good or evil for themselves. Therefore, he left in these "loopholes" which allow unscrupulous people to take advantage of it. The only problem is that this would not coincide with the "all-loving, all-forgiving God". If he really didn't care which you chose, it would not make sense for him to do it; it would also portray Him as someone who wouldn't mind if a guy went to hell. Then why all the demands about converting people to the faith to "save their souls"? If he's going to let them go to hell anyways...

3) The books are bs, made by a bunch of power-hungry white people.
Despite the chance of this happening is greater than the above two, religion still managed to bring healing to the people ~ physically and spiritually. It gave them hope. So, we can't say that the original people didn't do it for a bad reason. It might just be that it was perverted by a bunch of old guys who came along later. Now ~ if He would let people corrupt something meant to be pure and send them to His embrace, what the HELL is He thinking?

Also, if the book, which explains His existance, is messed up, then He can't exist. The whole point of this Judeo-Christian God is that He loves and wants you to join him. If he were all powerful, there would be no reason for him to want a book of lies spread about him; if this were really his goal, then He would ~logically~ make the book perfect.

Again, the whole "chose to embrace and accept God ~ it's your choice between heaven and hell" would go against the "all-loving all-forgiving" concept that is His image.

more in a second post, because I have to restart my cpu and editing sucks ~

[twilighthush]

Great points that you made, Kendo -- I'm really enjoying this discussion so far, but there are a few things I want to address, as before, in regards to the arguments you posted just now. (First of all, let me just say that I have absolutely zero belief in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God. I am merely playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of a good debate!)

You state that Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs is "focused towards receiving help from Him in return for being "good"." This is actually incorrect comprehension of what the beliefs actually are. The beliefs themselves are not so much of receiving help from God in return for being good, but for the betterment of who you are, and to live a righteous and honorable life out of goodness. You did get one thing right though, in regards to the whole rewarding of things -- in the Christian belief, God rewards those who believe in him with heaven. However, in the Judeo/Islamic beliefs, it's very different.

I can't think of anywhere in the Bible where it says it is right to kill infidels for blasphemying God. Is it not in the Ten Commandments that "Thou shalt not murder"? Therefore, a contradiction would exist if in the Bible, God condoned the killing of anyone who blasphemied him. You will actually find no such contradiction -- this was a belief that was fabricated by humans. And humans, as we all know, are flawed.

I definitely agree with you on the points you make about Buddhism and Hinduism. I personally think Buddhist philophies are wonderful, and want to truly learn more about them, but that isn't the main point of this debate. So, moving off this bit of a tangent, let's go back to our main argument about the Bible.

The reason why your argument is flawed is quite simple. My question was whether or not God could exist without the Bible. In the Bible, however, it states, "In the beginning, there was God."

Such a statement connotes the fact that before there was a world, there was a God. The Bible was written by man, through God. Man could not exist without a world. If there was no world, then there was no such thing as a Bible. Therefore, God can exist without a Bible, and what you argue really doesn't matter, because the Bible itself is not a good logical measure as to whether or not God can or cannot exist.

Another thing that is flawed is your definition of God. You say that God is all-powerful and all-forgiving. But being forgiving is not a key element of what God is, so you might want to revise this definition again. You are definitely on the right track.

Even though your arguments hold very little weight in regards to whether or not God needs something like the Bible to exist (or if God even needs the world to exist, for that matter) I'm going to address your points.

1.) You say that the books are the absolute word of God. You need to remember that for all we know, the original text could be very accurate. It is, actually, the TRANSLATIONS of this text that mess everything up.

2.) I have nothing to say in regards to this because I agree with you completely.

3.) Once again, I agree with you completely.

And as for your final point, I also agree with you, most definitely. However, regardless of whether or not I agree with what you have to say about your beliefs in relevance to the Bible itself, it does not prove or disprove God's existence because logically, God could exist without the Bible. Logically, if God does exist, he could exist without the universe.

[kingthev]

3) The books are bs, made by a bunch of power-hungry white people.
Despite the chance of this happening is greater than the above two, religion still managed to bring healing to the people ~ physically and spiritually. It gave them hope. So, we can't say that the original people didn't do it for a bad reason. It might just be that it was perverted by a bunch of old guys who came along later. Now ~ if He would let people corrupt something meant to be pure and send them to His embrace, what the HELL is He thinking?

Also, if the book, which explains His existance, is messed up, then He can't exist. The whole point of this Judeo-Christian God is that He loves and wants you to join him. If he were all powerful, there would be no reason for him to want a book of lies spread about him; if this were really his goal, then He would ~logically~ make the book perfect.

Again, the whole "chose to embrace and accept God ~ it's your choice between heaven and hell" would go against the "all-loving all-forgiving" concept that is His image.

more in a second post, because I have to restart my cpu and editing sucks ~
If God exists then it is concievable that he gave humans free will. If humans are not perfect, then God could not prevent the corruption of the Church institution without trampling on our free will. Further, for God to exist, these bibles do not have to be right or inspired. God can exist outside the church, temple or mosque. Even in the Catholic Church one can reach heaven while living a sinful life. Someone who commits suicide can still get to heaven. It is the person who chooses where one goes through one's life. It is even concievable that everyone goes to heaven even with the existence of a God. If it matters to you that something happens after you die, I think having a God is a good thing

"If God didn't exist it would be necessary to invent him" - Voltaire

[twilighthush]

kingthey -- You've probably already seen me say this a few times already, but your arguments are very, very flawed -- logically.

According to almost every single living and dead philosopher, God, by definition, is all-powerful and all-good.

People say that corruption is caused by evil, and evil is caused by Satan. But if evil is created by Satan, and Satan is created by God, then therefore evil is created by God. But this contradicts the second part of God's definition -- that he is "all-good". Because all-good would imply that he is perfect goodness, but perfect goodness would imply that there is no evil.

The fact that God's very definition contradicts himself, when we brickwall into your argument, actually disproves the existence of God, because such a contradiction is a negation, and a negation means that something does not exist.

Also, you quoted Voltaire very incorrectly.

Voltaire stated, "If God didn't exist it would be necessary to invent him." Essentially what he is saying is that regardless of whether or not God exists, humans would've still invented this concept of God anyway for the quality for their lives.

[kingthev]

I understand the transitive property but using to explain the existence of evil is false. If God gave his angels free will then they could have created evil. It is not God's fault that others perverted his gift. Saying it's his fault is like blaming the creator of the tnt for it's military application that caused many deaths. Satan metaphorically took the tnt (which was originally meant to be used for railroad construction) and used it to blow people up.

PS i know what the Voltaire quote means he was an agnostic if not complete atheist who hated Catholicism. I actually just think it's kind of funny. Voltaire was a witty man.

[twilighthush]

I understand the transitive property but using to explain the existence of evil is false. If God gave his angels free will then they could have created evil. It is not God's fault that others perverted his gift. Saying it's his fault is like blaming the creator of the tnt for it's military application that caused many deaths. Satan metaphorically took the tnt (which was originally meant to be used for railroad construction) and used it to blow people up.

PS i know what the Voltaire quote means he was an agnostic if not complete atheist who hated Catholicism. I actually just think it's kind of funny. Voltaire was a witty man.

The first reason why your argument doesn't work at all is because it doesnt say anywhere in any religious text that angels have free will -- Man has free will; not heavenly creatures who were made to serve God.

The second reason is because of the argument that I already addressed -- that by definition, God is all powerful and all good. If he is all powerful, then he created everything in this universe. Evil is a part of this universe, therefore God created it.

The third reason is because good simply cannot exist without evil. But if God is all-good to begin with, and if good existed before God, then that means God did not create everything within the universe. If God did not create everything in the universe, then he is not all-powerful. If he is not all-powerful, then he is not God, because God, by definition, is all powerful and all good. If either one of the elements is missing, then God cannot exist.

If you say that Satan created evil, then you are effectually saying that God did not create everything in the universe. If God did not create everything in the universe, then my third argument once again disproves the existence of God.

[KendoTiger]

I already guessed :), I don't mind at all.

Yikes, you're right. Except that I'm talking about the religion from a basic standpoint ~ I'll include "praying" as my example of my point of view. Again, what about the "live with 40 young virgins when you die" Islamic thing? The idea that you will be rewarded if you die for your God is present within these religions. I'll find the example from Judaism later ~ although it won't be as strong, as I'll admit, this point is weak in regards to Judaism.

It doesn't say, "If you go kill some losers who hate me, I'll give you a thumbs-up". You have to note the small "back-water" passages within the Bible that note not only God's reaction to people who don't have faith ~ and what happens to them ~ but the mood towards them of the surrounding faithful. It's like when you interpreted Voltaire, there are many kinds of conclusions you can draw about it: some more correct than others. Yet it is this vagueness that allows them to fervently say that they must defend God by killing those who disbelieve. I'm sorry, I'm not so Catholic that I can quote scripture ~ I'll try and find some examples for later.

You're right, this is a contradiction ~ one between the word and the action.

Flawed? I don't know about you, but I'm perfect :D
*long silence*
awww....

Alright, let's move on ~ to answering your new rewritten question.

If there was no Bible, then no one would know about "the Word of God". If no one knew about God, then no one would care, and the question about His existance is moot. Anyways, I'll humor your argument.

If God did not create the Bible, then based on the assumption good people would still go to heaven, and evil people to hell, God does not exist. If God is all-powerful and all-good, then he could not allow people to go to Hell by ignorance, as it would contradict the theory that he is all-good. This is essentially like lying through omission ~ as he is all-powerful, he is obligated to create a Holy text to "give people a choice" on which they want to go to, based on the premis (sp) that he is all-good. Therefore, without a Holy text, He could not exist.

Also, your argument is flawed, as it is based on quote from the Bible which you, in turn, state is innaccurate.

"Such a statement connotes the fact that before there was a world, there was a God. The Bible was written by man, through God. Man could not exist without a world. If there was no world, then there was no such thing as a Bible. Therefore, God can exist without a Bible, and what you argue really doesn't matter, because the Bible itself is not a good logical measure as to whether or not God can or cannot exist." TwilightHush.

Beyond that, I think there is something else wrong with your argument ~ but I can't tell what right now. I'll come back to it.

Until you prove to me you can and have read the original text in the original language accurately, you can't say that all of the innaccuracies are due to translation error. I do agree that a lot of these errors are due to revisions/translations though ~

"Logically, if God does exist, he could exist without the universe." TwilightHush.
Then where would he live? Lol. Anyways, it comes down to your belief in God and whether or not it transends what is logical. Logically, God cannot exist without the universe, because anything else has yet to be proven. Please don't mention dark-matter until you can use it in context ~ just for other people who want to join into the convo with it.

Physics wise, there's a lot I could say here, basically regarding fate and free-will. But I want to refresh myself a little, mention it all in a post or two ~ it has to do with the movement of sub-atomic particles on an universal level to determine what happens. Also going to mention Chaos Theory.

[junnleenfaah]

i'm curious twilighthush, what sources did you use to get this:

"The third reason is because good simply cannot exist without evil. But if God is all-good to begin with, and if good existed before God, then that means God did not create everything within the universe."

as in.. why do you think good cant exist unless its with evil? and also, how do you know good existed before God?

kinda confused on where you got those ideas

[twilighthush]

What, exactly, is wrong with my argument if you can't tell me what is wrong with it? That just makes no sense. This isn't even a matter of logic anymore -- this is just a matter of common sense. If you cannot point out what is flawed about an argument, do not say it is flawed unless it really is something you can argue. First rule of thumb about a debate.

Let me break my argument down, a little simpler.

1. The Bible is the word of God, this means the Bible cannot exist without God.
2. The Bible was written by man, through God -- this means the Bible needs man in order to exist.
3. Man cannot exist without the Earth, which means the Bible needs the Earth to exist.
4. God supposedly created the Earth, which means before there was any Earth, there was no Bible.
5. THEREFORE, God's existence is NOT reliant on the Bible. Whether or not people are aware of his existence is not necessary as to whether or not he DOES exist.

Until you prove to me that you can and have read the original text in the original language accurately, you can't say that all of the inaccuracies are NOT because of translation error. From King James to NIV to whatever different version of Bible you're reading, there are HUGE discrepancies. Common sense will tell us, once more, that we cannot rely on the current text as the one and only undisputed "word of God" because all the texts contradict one another in some way, shape, or form.

As for your argument about the universe, I direct you back to my Bible argument -- except, this time, replace the words "world" with "universe". If God created the universe, he would logically have to exist before the universe. Because obviously, a universe cannot be created by God if it already existed.

If God is all-powerful, then he would not need the universe in order to exist -- he simply would exist. It was God's choice to create the universe -- this was not something he needed to do.

Also. Stop saying you're going to mention something in a post or two. If you have an argument or a theory, I invite you to organize your thoughts and introduce it to the best of your ability in one post. That is the most effective way to debate.

i'm curious twilighthush, what sources did you use to get this:

"The third reason is because good simply cannot exist without evil. But if God is all-good to begin with, and if good existed before God, then that means God did not create everything within the universe."

as in.. why do you think good cant exist unless its with evil? and also, how do you know good existed before God?

kinda confused on where you got those ideas

Good cant exist without evil, because of the balance of the universe. Everything has its balance -- yin and yang, black and white, night and day, etc. But this is bringing in Buddhist philosophy, which honestly has no place here.

However, either way it doesn't matter, because I'm giving hypothetical arguments. The key word that you must pay attention to here is "IF". IF good existed before God, then that means God did not create everything within the universe.

Either way, it STILL doesn't matter, because the argument was originally that Satan created evil, but if Satan created the counterpart to goodness, then God did not create everything in the universe. If God did not create everything in the universe, then God is not all-powerful. If God is not all-powerful, then God can not be God. If God is not God, then God does not exist. That simple.

[deskclerk]

1.The second reason is because of the argument that I already addressed -- that by definition, God is all powerful and all good. If he is all powerful, then he created everything in this universe. Evil is a part of this universe, therefore God created it.
> I dont know if you've ever really noticed it but, ask yourself this: Does Darkness exist? No. Darkness is merely the definition for the absence of light. Darkness has no space, no matter, nothing. Its the same with Good and Evil, people dont realize it, but Evil is simply the result of the absence of Good.

The third reason is because good simply cannot exist without evil. But if God is all-good to begin with, and if good existed before God, then that means God did not create everything within the universe. If God did not create everything in the universe, then he is not all-powerful. If he is not all-powerful, then he is not God, because God, by definition, is all powerful and all good. If either one of the elements is missing, then God cannot exist.
> God's existance reaches beyond all boundaries of time and space. He has existed for all eternity and has never ceased to exist, nor has ever been created. He was simply just there. Hard to comprehend, no? As humans who have known life and death are too hung up on the idea of beginning and ends, where, God has no beginning nor the end. He IS the beginning and the end, because he has no such time boundaries to hinder him, since he is, after all, omnipotent and omnipresent. Secondly, he is, yes, all-good, but good doesnt exist as a seperate entity from him. God is good. God IS. What is IS? Its a state of being something. He is all things, good being one of them, not as a seperate occurance.

[twilighthush]

deskclerk -- Regarding your logical reasoning behind the good/evil thing -- all I have to say is touché.

As for everything else -- as eloquently as you have placed everything, you have not given any ounce of logical reasoning to whether or not God really does exist. Hypothetically, let's say I'm an atheist. As an atheist I don't even believe in God's existence and need logical proof that shows he can exist.

Your arguments are based around a theory that would require me to believe in that existence to begin with.

Sorry.

Also -- if you say God is all things, then that means God is also evil. Because even if evil is a lack of goodness, just like you said -- it still IS. It is a state of being something. Therefore, if God is everything, then God is also evil. If God is evil, then God is not all-good. If he is not all-good, then once again, he is not God, and if God is not God, then God cannot exist.

Funny how we keep coming back to this argument.

ALSO: No person can be both omniscient and omnipotent.

Because God is omnipotent, God is not subject to the flow of time. If God is outside of time, then that means every moment is equally present to God. So, God perceives future events as if they are happening now, and knows from eternity what the future course of events will be. If God knows the future perfectly, then he knows his own future decisions. It follows that God cannot change his mind about anything.

But however, the God of the Old Testament is depicted as having free will and changing his mind. For example, Jonah announces God has commanded Nineveh to be destroyed in 40 days, and so the king and people of Nineveh repent and, so, God changes his mind.

If God sees his future decisions as if they are present, he would no more change his mind about a future decision than he could change his mind about a past decision. Therefore, either God is not free, or he does not know his future decisions. Either he is not omnipotent, or he is not omniscient.

FURTHERMORE: How on earth is DESTRUCTION good? If God commanded destruction or murder, he would be going against his own ten commandments. Therefore, this is once again proving that God is not all-good, and disproving his existence.

[deskclerk]

regarding the actual acceptance of any existance:
thats impossible to argue. either you do, or you dont. theres really no real scientific proof whatsoever.

secondly: its no fun to argue with people who have 'tudes. clean up your act, please. Or else theres really no point in arguing.

seeya in a post or two.

[twilighthush]

regarding the actual acceptance of any existance:
thats impossible to argue. either you do, or you dont. theres really no real scientific proof whatsoever.

secondly: its no fun to argue with people who have 'tudes. clean up your act, please. Or else theres really no point in arguing.

seeya in a post or two.

Regarding existence: I wasn't asking for scientific proof. I was asking for logical proof. Huge difference.

Furthermore: There is no attitude. There is merely, and ONLY, logic. I'm sorry you can't accept the fact that your argument couldn't hold itself up through logical reasoning.

[deskclerk]

Furthermore: There is no attitude. There is merely, and ONLY, logic. I'm sorry you can't accept the fact that your argument couldn't hold itself up through logical reasoning.

thats what im talking about. You're pompous attitude along with your arrogance just doesnt make you sound sophisiticated, open, or at all even willing to see another side.

So, if you really cant see it at all, then ill leave you here to figure it out.

[twilighthush]

You obviously havent even so much as read any of the arguments here -- I've been arguing both sides this entire time. I've argued FOR the existence of God and AGAINST the existence of God in this debate.

It IS true, though. There is no pomp or arrogance in this. Everything I said is logical, and can not be disproved with anything else other than logic. Hell, I invite you to disprove me, logically. By all means, if you know you are right, then please, enlighten me, sir!

Just because your argument does not hold through logical reasoning does not mean that I have an attitude. An attitude would be if I were taking things personally, the way you are now.

But this debate is not about whether or not I have an attitude. This debate is about whether or not God exists, and quite frankly -- your arguments, sir, are inadequate. Once again, I invite you to make them adequate, and to prove my logic to be illogical.

But if you don't have anything else to offer on the topic of God's existence, then I ask that you not.

[KendoTiger]

Thank you for repeating an argument I already understood; I am very appreciative of your effort in making it "a little simpler", since I obviously can't take a break to think through my idea and answer later.

1. You state before (and after) that the Bible was written by man, through God. This would leave both innaccuracies and bias throughout the text, if it wasn't created by man in its entirity. Therefore, you cannot say that it actually represents the "word of God".
2. Again, you admitted yourself that we do not know if it was written by God through man, only that it was created by man; yet this does not disprove the statement that the Bible needs the presence of man to exist.
3. Until you can reasonably prove, logically, that the chance of finding other men is 0%, within an Alpha Level of .01, then you can't say that man needs Earth to exist. Anyways, look at space ~ we can survive there, can't we? I admit that this is not a flawless response, but it does prove you need to refine your points before posting, a good thing to do in this type of debate.
4. If the Bible really is the word of God, it would exist as soon as God existed, as it would be his will (in physical form), representing the history of his actions.
5. If no one believed in Him, then he would have failed as being all-good, as everyone would be going to hell. If he had the power to change this, yet stood aside, he would not be all-good. Without a means of giving people a choice/message, through a religion centered around the Bible, then he would not be able to exist based on his definition. THEREFORE, there has to be a religious text, to prompt people to believe, in order for him to exist.

I tell you to prove to me, you counter with the same argument. We can't tell ~ that's one of the problems of an argument such as this.

If God created the universe ~ if He didn't, then the universe was already created in some way/shape/form. You haven't proven he has existed yet, so don't claim that he created the universe.

Honestly, I believe that you have strong points and good thinking skills; yet your attitude of condensention is more than merely annoying.

I'll mention those physics concepts in later posts ~ just for you.

[dagamezmasta]

dagamezmasta -- Like KendoTiger, you stated that there are inaccuracies within the Holy Texts and contradictions, which is why you do not believe in God. However, my question to you is simple. Do contradictions prove that God does or does not exist?

It is said that while the "Holy Books" are God's word, he did not write it himself -- that his followers wrote it. Can't it be argued that his followers might have made mistakes through the writing? And how do the contradictions serve as absolute proof that God does or does not exist? Please answer this.

Furthermore, how do you know that God commanded the Crusades to happen in the first place? How do you know that it was not man who believed the Crusades should have occurred in the name of God? How do you know that God believed what the Crusaders was doing was right and supported their indiscriminate annihiliations of other cultures and religions?

Your argument, obviously, is flawed. You can not use such inferences because they do not logically prove or disprove the existence of God with a logical means of connection. Please continue to discuss.


yes.. but if i remember correctly.. the writers of the bible were controlled by God to write it.. so.. if God is all-knowing.. how could they be wrong?

as to the crusades, if the men who believed that god willed the crusades to happen were incorrect.. then what are the possibilities that all the religious people in the modern world are incorrect? doesn't that put the religious people at the tip of the sword? if the pope himself, chosen by god, as the bible states, was incorrect.. why can't all the religious people, christians, muslims, jews, buddhist, etc, be incorrect?

at the beginning of the thread, i concluded that there was no God. I still don't believe that there is such a God, as the Christians and Muslims and such claim there is. However...


I was talking to my friend the other day...and we got involved talking about multiple universes. Einstein concludes that, most probably, there are multiple universes, and that ours i not the only one (i'm not talking about the solar system). Universe means, literally, al the things in space. However... space might not be the onlyt hing out there. So, assuming that there are multiple universes, there has to be something holding them together. Take, for example, a bunch of bubbles floating in water. The bubbles will represent the universes, and the water the...thing (we have no idea what it is) that holds it together. We began discussing what the thing could be, and time came out to be the most logical answer. Time, to most people who can't think deeply, is something that is measured in 60s and is that thing that's ticking on our living room clock right now.


NO

that cannot be time. time has to be something much more abstract. people say there's an end to everything. humans. animals. the earth. the sun. our solar system. what about time? time has been there... since the beginning.. (though we don't even know if there was a beginning). if there was a god, how could he have been there before time? that is impossible. if you don't have time, you can't have anything. now.. let's say god came after time.. then.. how could he be divine. something was there ahead of him, then, which means that he cannot be divine. he's supposed to be the creator of all things. ALL. but then.. if he came after time.. he wasn't the creator of time.

i think it's possible that time may be the divine thing out there.. maybe it can't act independently.. but it has some sort of.. control......

i now think there could be some kind of divine thing out there.. but not the sort of divine thing that modern religions claim there is.

anyways.. that's just an abstract theory of my friend's and mines.

[KendoTiger]

Then again, you really can't say that time exists ~ in an actual sense ~ before the creation of the universe.

Think about it ~ time is just deligating things in terms of natural processes. Like, measuring years in terms of how long it takes the earth to completely revolve around the sun. As you watch your watch, you are actually saying how long it has taken the earth to get to that point in it's rotation around the sun. Now, how do you measure time if there isn't anything to put it in relation to? A mere second would be an eternity ~ you wouldn't be able to tell the difference

[sugicuteslut]

well there is one thing for absolute certain Jesus wasnt God Why you ask well Descartes says we are all human and every human desires and needs therefore we lack and are not perfect therefore we are not God. So this would rule out any possiblity of Jesus as a God goodbye Christianity. Rousseau said if God exists why does he need to talk through a medium and not to us directly. This proves a point. It shows that the church is for control of the people into believing into the lies. Not making a better world but causing chaos by everyones different religions thousands of wars and millions of people's death for what. Hume says if the afterlife is sooo brillant why doesn't everyone just kill themselfs right now and get it over with. For no where in the bible does it say that suicide is wrong. Why do we all have worldly goods and treasure all material objects if the next life is perfection? Due to the fact that the afterlife is a lie.

[dagamezmasta]

Then again, you really can't say that time exists ~ in an actual sense ~ before the creation of the universe.

Think about it ~ time is just deligating things in terms of natural processes. Like, measuring years in terms of how long it takes the earth to completely revolve around the sun. As you watch your watch, you are actually saying how long it has taken the earth to get to that point in it's rotation around the sun. Now, how do you measure time if there isn't anything to put it in relation to? A mere second would be an eternity ~ you wouldn't be able to tell the difference


really.. what about einstein's theory that time is the fourth dimension. for a long time, people thought that the only dimesions were length, width, and height. einstein introduced something brand new: that time was yet another dimension. you may think of time as a unit.. but i'm afraid that's incorrect. time is much more complex than simply a unit to measure the process of things.

[KendoTiger]

Ah, I already knew that. But I'm asking why time can exist without the first three dimensions. Please explain it to me ~

[chenyi_tw]

- Do you believe that God (i.e. Judeo-Christian-Islamic Conception) exists? If so, how do you know that he exists? If not, why don't you believe that he exists?

I believe that God exist, because you can fell it if you really chase Him :happy: . Just trying it you will know that He really was all the time by your side :rolleyes: .


- Do you believe in God? If you believe in God, why do you believe in God? If you don't believe in God, why don't you believe in God?

Yeaaah, because I got faith in Him :wink2: . It's supernatural.. ah, with words we can't describe it.. It's hard to tell you, because the felling it's SO GOOD!!! :tongue:

[dagamezmasta]

Ah, I already knew that. But I'm asking why time can exist without the first three dimensions. Please explain it to me ~

well.. i'm not sure whether i said it existed without the three dimensions.. i mean.. i'm not supernatural or all-knowing.. so i can't possibly know what it was like.. in the beginning. i'm just saying time proves both the belief in God wrong and the belief that there is no God wrong also.

- Do you believe that God (i.e. Judeo-Christian-Islamic Conception) exists? If so, how do you know that he exists? If not, why don't you believe that he exists?

I believe that God exist, because you can fell it if you really chase Him :happy: . Just trying it you will know that He really was all the time by your side :rolleyes: .


- Do you believe in God? If you believe in God, why do you believe in God? If you don't believe in God, why don't you believe in God?

Yeaaah, because I got faith in Him :wink2: . It's supernatural.. ah, with words we can't describe it.. It's hard to tell you, because the felling it's SO GOOD!!! :tongue:


keep in mind this is a debate forum, not a forum where you voice your little opinions with little or no backup evidence. i know you are trying to answer the questions.. but do use persuasion techniques; don't just answer the questions. please refrain from such weak debate posts in the future. thanks :happy:

[jaychou_21]

jaychou_21 - I have a few questions for you as well.

First of all, in order to believe that anything exists for absolute certainty, you must be able to prove its existence first, by definition. What is God, to you, by definition?

Second of all, how do you know there is one God? Where is your logical proof or evidence? God can be proved or disproved by means of logical reasoning -- your argument is very much flawed in this sense.

Third of all, you talk of the cosmological argument of the existence of God. My answer to you is quite simple in all of its complexity. You say that something cannot come out of nothing, but quantum physics has proved that something can come out of nothing.

The theory of quantum vacuum fluctuation, which is actually a proven theory because it occurs in nature, and in our bodies every second, states the following:

1. Energy levels in quantum physic is never definite, but made up of probabilities.
2. You are never allowed to have any definite figures in quantum physics.
3. With that said, since you can't have definite figures, we can apply the theory of quantum vacuum fluctuation. In quantum physics, because there are no figures, there is no such thing as energy being at zero since zero is a definite figure. However, because it is not definite, energy can go over zero or under zero. Under zero (i.e. no energy) would mean that the energy doesn't exist. Over zero means it's coming into existence. Because this energy can literally oscillate between under zero and over zero, we have something called virtual particles, which are particles that literally come out of nothing, and occurs when energy ocillates above and below zero.
4. Therefore, if a virtual particle can come into existence from a fluctuation in a vacuum, so can the universe, and ultimately the world.

You can apply the theory of quantum mechanics to how the world first formed its atmosphere -- methane and hydrogen.

In the 1980's a physics scientist conducted an experiment that simulated the conditions of early earth -- he put, in a vacuum chamber -- nothing more than methane and hydrogen -- components that made up the early earth's atmosphere. He also added in things like electric charges, to simulate lightning. After an amount of time, he opened the chamber and what did he discover?

Amino acids and new elements that were not in the simulated atmosphere before (such as Oxygen).

Amino acids are the building blocks of RNA, which are the foundation to DNA, which are ultimately the foundation to human life.

If you are a strong believer of the concept that God created the world in 6 days, you better have a strong argument to prove it when scientists have proven that the earth is between 4 and 5 billion years old, and that humanity has been evolving for millions of years. Our ancestors include the Homo Sapiens (we are Homo Sapien Sapien), the Neanderthals, the Homo Erectus -- and that's just to name a few. Darwin's theory of evolution, applied with modern theories of mutation, proven by mutation in bacteria due to environmental pressures, is one that is commonly accepted by the majority of academic minds everywhere. It is very difficult to disprove evolution due to the sheer amount of physical proof that we have which proves evolution.

There is far more I can say on this topic, but I want to address most of your points briefly before further elaboration.

Now, with that said, you say that all of your prayers are answered by God with a sign. How do you know the sign wasn't something that you created, psychologically, because it was something that you were actively looking for?

Since I've pretty much all but stomped out most of the flaws in your arguments, my greatest question for you ultimately is, as I will reiterate one more time:

How do you know God exists?

To know means you have evidence of his existence.

Where is your evidence?

Thank you for questioning,twilighthush.
This is probably the most argumentative topic around.
But I don't want to argue with you so I'm just going to express my points the way I see things so please don't be too cynical and try to percept things on your own since most of what I'm going to convey are self-explanatory though somewhat profound in some instances.

First of all,you asked what is God to me,by definition.
God is the ultimate Creator. He is the father of mankind,the greatest healer,the best teacher of morals,
the source of true wisdom,the shepherd,and the most powerful ruler of all.

Secondly,I believe in God because I exist.
If our existence is not enough to convince the agnostics or atheists that God exists,then I have ten reasons why they should change their minds.These ten important truths are:

1. LOVE
Has any scientist explained clearly the nature of love?
Unless he loves truly,a scientist cannot tell what love is.
If he knows how to love,he can only explain it by experience and not through the microscope or telescope.
Does he deny the existence of love? If he believes in love,how can he fail to believe in God?

"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God,and God in Him." (I John 4:16)
"Dear friends,let us love one another,for love comes from God.
Whoever does not love does not know God,because God is love." (I John 4:7-8)

2. CONSCIENCE
There is a universal law in us that enables us to tell the right from the wrong. We call it conscience.
We feel guilty when we commit a sin or offend someone. According to the Bible,even those who have not heard the Gospel have the requirements of the law written in their hearts.

3. KNOWLEDGE
We are God's superior creation,and a proof of this is our ability to assume,theorize and think on our own.
We are free to analyze our own existence and think about eternity.
Some of us are even questioning the existence of God.

The Bible knows this and warns the people against falling into the same trap.
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt,and their ways are vile.
Many people had denied the existence of God in the past but they are now forgotten.
"The wisdom of the wise will perish,the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish." (Isaiah 29:14)

4. THE BIBLE
The Word of God is contained in the Bible,which explains the wonderful truth about creation,existence,love,joy and holiness."By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made,their starry host by the breath of his mouth."
(Psalm 33:6)

The Holy Bible contains the mind of God,the state of man,the way of salvation,the doom of sinners,and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy,its percepts are binding,its histories are true and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise,believe it to be safe,and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you,food to support you,and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler's map,the pilgrim's staff,the pilot's compass,the soldier's sword,and the Christian's charter.There,the Paradise is restored,Heaven opened and the gates of hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject,our good the design,and the glory of God its end.
It should fill the memory,rule the heart,and guide the feet.We are ought to read it slowly,frequently,and prayerfully for it is a mine of wealth,a paradise of glory,and a river of pleasure.It is given to us in life,will be opened at the judgment,and be remembered forever.It involves the highest responsibilty,will reward the greatest labor,and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.


Despite the publication of many books about the big bang theory or the theory of evolution,
God keeps His Words in the hearts of the believers.
"There is no wisdom,no insight,no plan that can succeed against the Lord." (Proverbs 21:30)
Written two thousand years ago,the Bible still remains the most read book today.
"The grass withers and the flowers fall,but the Word of our God stands forever." (Isaiah 40:8)

5. SCIENTIFIC TRUTHS
While the Bible speaks of spiritual truths,it also conveys truths that can be observed by human senses and understanding.Foremost of these truths is the Bible's description of the universe.
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the Work of His hands." (Psalm 19:1)

Before Galileo was born,the Bible was already comapring the stars in heaven with the sands on the seashore.
(Genesis 22:18) The Bible also revealed that the earth is circular and the universe is expanding.
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,and spreads them out like a tent to live in." (Isaiah 40:22)

6. ISRAEL
The old testament in the Bible had documented the history of Israel from Abraham to the 12 sons of Jacob (twelve tribes of Israel). Beyond recording the events in Israel,the Bible had precisely foretold the future of Israel and the world.

First,the Bible talked about the destruction of Jerusalem and the spread of Jews around the planet.We know how Israel was overtaken by other countries and how the Jews fled their homeland to seek refuge in other countries.We know how the Nazis tried to annihilate the Jews and we know how God miraculously saved them and brought them back to Israel.

Before this happened,the book of Zechariah was already conveying this prophecy.
This is what the Lord Almighty says: "I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west. I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people,and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God."

7. POPULATION
If the claims of the scientists that men have been living on earth for millions of years now were true,then the earth's resources should have been depleted a long time ago. It would take only a few thousand years for men and women to fill the earth with their children.

For example,a very old man named Abraham who lived about four thousand years ago was the father of many nations. "And so from this one man,and he as good as dead,came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore." Of course,if it were not for calamities and plagues,the earth would have run out of space for humans.The first year of the Jewish calendar was 3760 BC.

8. PROGRESS
It is hard to imagine how a chaotic disorder like the big bang would result in orderly concepts like democracy or how a loud explosion in the stars would eventually cause music. How is it that humans appreciate beauty and are able to create arts if existence really began as a disaster?

Life on earth is a process,growth or progress. From an infant,a human becomes an adult capable of reasoning and doing things. "There is a time for everything,and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to be born and a time to die." (Ecclesiastes 3:1-2 in part)

The fact that men live in harmony with nature and that we desire progress in everything - from resources and recognition - is a manifestation that Someone is in control. In the book of Colossians,Paul referred to Jesus Christ as the Son of God who controls all things.

"He is the image of the invisible God,the firstborn over all creation.For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth,visible and invisible,whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things,and in Him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:15-17)

9. TIME
Scientists do not believe in eternity,because they explain things according to their sensory experience of the world. Their observation is mainly confined to the physical world where time seems to dictate everything.They deny God because they think that time has a beginning and an end.

The book of Genesis,the first book in the Bible,says: "In the beginning,God created the heavens and the earth."
There is eternity because there is God. He is from all eternity.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God "who is,and who was,and who is to come,the Almighty."
(Revelation 1:8)

10. SPIRITUAL TRUTH
Apart from our sensory experience of the world,men also libe in spiritual truths.The joy that poor people have when worshipping the Lord is brought about by their recognition of these truths that are revealed to them by the Holy Spirit.

Scientists who analyze things according to their sensory experience of the physical world are not able to see the spiritual truth. "For what is seen is temporary,and what is unseen is eternal." (2 Corinthians 4:18)

Only those who have accepted the grace of salvation offered by Jesus Christ can recognize and embrace these truths. "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God,that we may understand what God has freely given us.This is what we speak,not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit,expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God,for they are foolishness to him,and he cannot understand them,because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:12-14)


************************************************** ************************************************** *************************************


Aside from the ten truths mentioned above,there are a million reasons why we should believe and glorify God,the One who created the universe and put man on top of all His creation.
He was there before time began and will be there after the end of the universe.

To those who continue to deny God's existence and doubt His words,the Bible contains these verses I excerpted:

"The man who thinks he know something does not yet know as he ought to know." (1 Corinthians 8:2)

The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the Word of the Lord,what kind of wisdom do they have?" (Jeremiah 8:9)

To find true wisdom,we must approach the One to whom we owe our existence.
"If any of you lacks wisdom,he shouls ask God,who gives generously to all without finding fault,and it will be given to him." (James 1:5)

We must understand,however,that in order to undestand the Word of God,we have to know and embrace the fundamental truth - that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came down from heaven to die for our sins and give us eternal life. Jesus said: "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the Good News." (Mark 1:15)

To the cynical and argumentative people: I know that my reasoning doesn't offer a lot of logical evidence and scientific proof but I hope you would at least appreciate my effort to provide some answers and brief explanations to a question that keeps bugging several people until now.

twilighthush: And about the signs I asked from God,I don't think there is a necessity to further elaborate all of them. Suffice it to say that God gave me almost everything I could ask for. Two days ago,I was about to commit suicide from the brink of a severe agony due to an emotional burden I can hardly surmount. I almost gave up until I recalled to look up and say my prayers to Him. And by His amazing grace,I was saved from the verge of succumbing to my one last breath. It proves that God is really good; for he still hears our prayers despite our sins. I repeat,I am not a pious devotee as what most of you might think. But due to the greatest gift that God has given us - life,a wonderful journey - I had already proven to myself that He exists and His presence is eternal.I need not convince everyone to believe in Him but hopefully,by expressing the truths that I shared with you,no matter how flawed it would seem,it might as well change others' perception of God and cast their doubts about His existence. God does not force everyone to believe in Him,for he gave each and everyone of us a spirit that opts whether to have faith in Him or question his existence. God Loves Us. God never fails to give us a sign or an admonition that He is there.Some of us may know it but some people are still too oblivious to see those signs; that is why they keep on doubting his powers.Questions and reactions are always welcome but please keep in mind that those are just my own views and kindly consider the fact that each and everyone of us is entitled to his or her own opinion.My only wish is for everyone to see his signs and remind all that for what is seen is temporary,and what is unseen is eternal. I guess I had expressed my views more than enough and I hope you appreciated the truths I shared with you. May God Bless You All!

Porque de tal manera amo Dios al mundo,que ha dado a su Hijo unigenito,
para que todo aquel que en el cree,no se pierda,mas tenga vida eterna.

Prayer is the best weapon we can rely on. :angel:

[sagara0510]

Furthermore: There is no attitude. There is merely, and ONLY, logic. I'm sorry you can't accept the fact that your argument couldn't hold itself up through logical reasoning.

thats what im talking about. You're pompous attitude along with your arrogance just doesnt make you sound sophisiticated, open, or at all even willing to see another side.

So, if you really cant see it at all, then ill leave you here to figure it out.

i don't see any attitude either and i've read thru twilighthush's posts thoroughly

if anything i think you are the one with the attitude that needs be checked

her so called 'arrogance' and 'pompus' attitude just appears to me as logical rational thinking

lets keep this place civil and resist from personal attacks ok?

as for the topic at hand.. i'm staying out of it... in my eyes i don't think god exists.. and yet there are things in life that cannot be explained by logic alone which leads me to believe that there are forces at work that we humans cannot see and cannot prove or disprove. who knows what god looks like. who knows what god is... nobody knows. but.. that doesn't mean god doesn't exist..

[princessKitty]

in my eyes i don't think god exists.. and yet there are things in life that cannot be explained by logic alone which leads me to believe that there are forces at work that we humans cannot see and cannot prove or disprove. who knows what god looks like. who knows what god is... nobody knows. but.. that doesn't mean god doesn't exist.. :wacko:

changing your mind already? :?
well, it seems like everyne is very seriuos about this topic.
personally, i agree with sagara0510, there is no evidence that God exists but yet there is no evidence that he does not exist.is all down to personal beliefs and what have affected your thinking into this way.
personally, god exists. to me, is like, you can't see air but you know that it is there.
to me is like, if there is a creator of everything(lie this forum) then there should have been a creator for this earth and space beyond.
I believe in the bible and have complete trust in it because it is God's word. God cannot lie and so eveything in the bible is true.

jaychou21 , you must know your scriptures very well, there are many stated in your posts!!

anyway, For me, and you don't have to believe this, God exixts and all the questions that we humans have can be found in the bible.

[Darkness]

I'd like to think that god exists but people who try to convince me that he exists make me feel the contrary. There's too much things which aren't logical.

When family tells me to go to the temple, then, there are kids everywhere, I think it's easier to convince them. For instance, the monk was telling them that if people don't get cancer, or didn't die from SRASS it's because they don't eat meat and pray. Then try to convince me that, in that building where 200 people died from SRASS, not one prayed? especially, it was in HK, most of the people pray, believe in it...

Plus, when I see some people of my family especially going to the USA (just) to pray, I wonder why. :/ God isn't he everywhere? can't you just pray him at home? And something else, my grandmother wakes up very early to pray, then in the evening, she has to pray too. Why?! there is a time to pray?! Is it told somewhere? by who?

All this must have been build up by the religious institutions... and I don't talk about the money...

So, if I don't very believe in god is because of these institutions and their unlogical things.

[sagara0510]

no princesskitt i haven't changed my mind.. i basically can't decide whether he does or not... the rational side of me doesn't believe in god because i can't SEE anything to prove god exists. but experience in life leads me to believe not everything can be explained rationally therefore god may exist....

yes i am aware i'm contradicting myself... :oops:

[princessKitty]

Darkness
it depends really what religion you are talking about, there are some religions where they expect you to pray a certain amount of days, and other times, you can choose out of your heart when to pray.
is your grandmother doing it becasue she WANTS to?or is it because she was TOLD to?ask her. :wink2:


sagara0510
i want to ask you, do you believe in ghost?do you belive in aliens?UFOs?

Yes, of course, people want to SEE in front of them to believe in it.
Believing in God isn't about seeing him in real life, is about trust and beliefs. if i was to question his existence, then doesn't that mean i don't actually believe in him, that i don't believe he exists becasue i question about it?
if you have real trust in him, then you wouldn't ask but becasue people today who is confused about it questions.
if you did know God existed would that change the way you live, that you would be a better person?
people today who does beleive in God still have sex before marriage or engage in homosexuality which really annoys me. :ranting:
they claim to be self-christian or whatever and yet they do things against the bible.

[sagara0510]

omg its funny that u mention ghosts because i was just thinking about them

yes i do believe in ghosts because i've seen one or what i believe to be a ghost... it was more freaky than scary but i definately believe i saw one

UFO's?? i don't know if i believe people are being abducted and experimented on etc like it is portrayed on tv. but i do believe that we are not alone. purely based on the statistics that show countless planets in the universe. i find it very narrow minded and niave to think that we are the only planet with life on it.

but if u are saying that god should fit into the same category as ghosts and aliens? *shrugs*.. who knows...

this is a debate that will never end because neither side can prove conclusively that the other side is wrong.

i don't think i would change as a person if i knew for a fact that god exists. i believe i am a good person and i will continue to be myself.

IF god does exist... and i have been a good person then i don't believe that i will be punished because i didn't believe he existed or because i didn't be part of his religion. i think god would reward those who are good rather than reward those who worship him.

[twilighthush]

Thank you for repeating an argument I already understood; I am very appreciative of your effort in making it "a little simpler", since I obviously can't take a break to think through my idea and answer later.

1. You state before (and after) that the Bible was written by man, through God. This would leave both innaccuracies and bias throughout the text, if it wasn't created by man in its entirity. Therefore, you cannot say that it actually represents the "word of God".
2. Again, you admitted yourself that we do not know if it was written by God through man, only that it was created by man; yet this does not disprove the statement that the Bible needs the presence of man to exist.
3. Until you can reasonably prove, logically, that the chance of finding other men is 0%, within an Alpha Level of .01, then you can't say that man needs Earth to exist. Anyways, look at space ~ we can survive there, can't we? I admit that this is not a flawless response, but it does prove you need to refine your points before posting, a good thing to do in this type of debate.
4. If the Bible really is the word of God, it would exist as soon as God existed, as it would be his will (in physical form), representing the history of his actions.
5. If no one believed in Him, then he would have failed as being all-good, as everyone would be going to hell. If he had the power to change this, yet stood aside, he would not be all-good. Without a means of giving people a choice/message, through a religion centered around the Bible, then he would not be able to exist based on his definition. THEREFORE, there has to be a religious text, to prompt people to believe, in order for him to exist.

I tell you to prove to me, you counter with the same argument. We can't tell ~ that's one of the problems of an argument such as this.

If God created the universe ~ if He didn't, then the universe was already created in some way/shape/form. You haven't proven he has existed yet, so don't claim that he created the universe.

Honestly, I believe that you have strong points and good thinking skills; yet your attitude of condensention is more than merely annoying.

I'll mention those physics concepts in later posts ~ just for you.

Sorry that it took me so long to respond -- my internet's been down and I only have inet access at school at this moment.

1. I never said that it is the actual word of God, verbatim. I said that it is the word of God as translated by man.

2. I agree with you -- the Bible needs the man to exist. But, <I>if</i> God existed, man would need God to exist, as according to the teleological argument of existence.

3. I'm sorry. I don't think this argument has any grounds whatsoever, scientifically or logically.

4. The Bible is, once again, the written word of God as translated by man. The word of God would exist the second God existed, but no one would be around to hear it until man existed. And no one would be able to read this word, until it's written.

5. This almost falls into Rachels' argument about worship. While a religious text must exist to educate the masses of God's supposed existence, it still does not prove or disprove whether or not an all-powerful and all-good being exist.

As for whether or not I'm condescending -- you're making the assumption that I think you're less than me. I don't. I just merely find flaws in your argument and slice them open with logic. And as I said to someone else before, if you find flaws in my argument, I invite you to do the same.

This is all, in the end, a matter of logical reasoning. It isn't who is better than the other. It's really just a matter of being able to hold your own, through logical reasoning, without needing to devolve into hostile argument.

[princessKitty]

but if u are saying that god should fit into the same category as ghosts and aliens? *shrugs*.. who knows...

i think god would reward those who are good rather than reward those who worship him.

i am not putting God in the same catogory. is like us humans are ike animals. we are same catogory but not in that sense. get it?

and also, i am a christian and i was deeply hurt by you saying, God will reward those who does good rather than those who worship him. :depresse:

if you don't belive in God, please do not say things like that. it is horrible and is quite offending to those who does worship him.

[sagara0510]

it wasn't meant as an offense

i am merely trying to say that i believe if u are a good person but you aren't religious, and when you die, god does exist, he's not going to send you to hell just because you didn't believe in him

as opposed to some1 who does worship god but was a horrible person and committed crimes, i don't believe god will accept that person into heaven because he believed in him.

does that make sense?

i truly apologise for offending you as that was not my intention.

[powerlessangel]

logical and scientific explanations isnt going to help much to those questioning the existance of GOD. You will realise that the more you are presented with such explanations, the lesser you are to the Truth. Of course, there are enough explanations logically and scientifically to prove the existance of GOD but both doesn't go well hand in hand. To an non-believer, such explanations are merely treated as facts that have flaws here and there. Thus, further explanations often lead no where except more discussions and arguements.
GOD cannot be confused to other supposedly 'GOD'.

[princessKitty]

it wasn't meant as an offense

i am merely trying to say that i believe if u are a good person but you aren't religious, and when you die, god does exist, he's not going to send you to hell just because you didn't believe in him

as opposed to some1 who does worship god but was a horrible person and committed crimes, i don't believe god will accept that person into heaven because he believed in him.

does that make sense?

i truly apologise for offending you as that was not my intention.

yeah, i know now, i understand, sorry, it was MY misunderstanding. yeah, i agree with you sagara0510 people who does good but didn't believe in god may have a chance of approval.but surely, because they ignored god existence, do you still think god will forgive them even though they saved 1 million lives and gave free money? :?

[twilighthush]

jaychou_21, thank you for sharing your thoughts and beliefs on here, but you must remember this is a debate forum. We are talking about whether or not God exists, we are not here to be cynical. Merely, we are looking at something in a logical manner.

First, I will begin by explaining what all of this is. Ultimately, this is philosophy. Philosophy is defined as the rational study of religion, and philosophers are defined as lovers of knowledge. Therefore, we are searching for knowledge, and the knowledge we are searching for here is whether or not God exists.

But the only way we are allowed to search through God's existence through a philosophical way is by rational means, because that is part of the definition.

This means that anything that is not rational can not be part of this discussion. The rational include empirical evidence, logical reasoning, observation, and the scientific method. The irrational include anything that is metaphysical, dogmatic (Scripture), faith-based, or organizational-based.

This means that the majority of all of your arguments can not be used, and will not be addressed because they are all irrational, and irrational logic is incapable of proving the existence of God.

Thales of Miletus, the first great philosopher, created the basic foundation of philosophy through three rules.

1. Appearance and reality are not the same.
- What you perceive to be real, just by looking at it, or by feeling it, is not the actual truth of what that thing is.

2. Sense perception is no guide to truth
- You can never be sure that when you have appearance, you have reality.

3. Logic is the guide to truth.

Parmenides of Elea, the second great philosopher said that in order to find truth, we must be both objective and just.

I am now going to address most of your arguments.

1. You say that God is the ultimate Creator. But if he CHOSE not to create the universe, would that mean God would not exist? Because he is all-powerful, he could have chosen NOT to create the universe, but had he not created the universe, then that means that he wouldn't be a Creator. Therefore, your definition is flawed, if you believe God exists.

2. The argument you are giving is called the teleological argument of existence. What disproves the teleological argument of existence is the theory of evolution, which is supported by fossils, embryological evidence, observation, and vestigial limbs. Furthermore, an all-powerful, all-good being is not necessary in the creation of humanity. For all we know, if we were designed by some higher being, the designer might not be God. Maybe something created us and then ceased to exist because the amount of power that was necessary to create humanity required the sacrifice of existence. Or maybe, as the majority of scientists believe and have proven through experimentation as I explained in an earlier argument (about the methane/hydrogen), in the early stages of the earth, amino acids, which are the building blocks to RNA formed. And from there, the process of creation began purely through spontaneous activity in nature.

3. Love is nothing more than a chemical process in your brain. It is caused by hormones. If we had no brain, we would not know love.

4. Conscience is nothing more than a chemical process in your brain. If we had no brain, we would have no conscience.

5. Knowledge is a chemical process in your brain. Without a brain, we have no knowledge.

6. The Bible is a work of literature. Other great tomes of EPIC literature were written by Homer and Virgil, and if you actually read all the epics back to back, you can actually see how each author parodied the next. It stretches all the way to the 20th century Walcott.

7. The Big Bang Theory and the theory of Evolution are factual and once more, supported by empirical evidence.

Big Bang Theory
1. radiation in space
2. red shift of light
3. 75/25 hydrogen/helium distribution
4. galaxies are constantly moving apart from one another

Evolution
1. Fossils
2. Vestigial
3. embryological
4. Observation

Scientists have proved that it is absolutely impossible for the world to have been created in 6 days. According to the Bible, the world is only 5,000 years old, but thanks to technology, we have proven that the earth is between 4 and 5 billion years old.

8. Progress occurs in all animal groups. Dolphins recently have been known to use tools, like sponges, to protect their noses while foraging for food. This is a new evolution.

9. Time cannot exist without the universe. But God wasn't necessarily the creator of the universe. Quantum physics, that I mentioned in an earlier argument, proves this to be true.

10. Spiritual truth is not logical, not reasonable, and will once again be ignored, like all the scripture that you quoted, because none of it works into logic, because it is illogical and irrational.

If we wanna talk about experience, I suffer from bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, I used to suffer from severe depression, and have died once in a suicide attempt. I flatlined, and my heart stopped for a few minutes, and was in a coma for a few days following.

There was no light.

There was nothing.

Only pure blackness.

I was raised Christian -- my father was once a pastor. So I knew all about Christianity and everything within it, and regardless of how much I asked God to help me, regardless of how much I went to church, of how much I tried to heal myself through God, nothing worked.

It was a chemical disorder. It was something that could not be fixed through spirituality.

I am also a victim of rape. I am a victim of abuse. I am a victim of violent crime. God did nothing to help me afterwards. I found no consolation in his existence. I found nothing at all, and it was through my dependency on religion and on God that I devolved into a much worse place.

It wasn't until I denounced God's nonexistent help and began to seek methods on my own, within myself, that I managed to overcome everything that I went through.

But that is not how I know that God does not exist. Sure, it supports my argument, but such "experience" is not rational, and not logical. Why am I sharing it? Because I was in a far worse place than you, but somehow I got over it without God. In fact, I'm much, much better off without God.

Therefore, we do not need God in order to overcome our problems in life.

Logical arguments against God's existence

1. No person can be both omniscient and omnipotent
- God is outside the flow of time, and perceives future events as if they are happening now, which means that he knows his future decisions, which means he cannot change his mind about anything. However, in the Old Testament, God changed his mind all the time. Therefore, God is either not omniscient, or he is not omnipotent.

2. Nothing can be perfectly good.
- God, by definition, is perfectly good. He must be perfectly just and perfectly merciful, since justice and mercy are two varities of goodness. But no one can be perfectly just and perfectly merciful, because it is impossible. If it is impossible to be both perfectly just and merciful, then it is impossible to be perfectly good.

3. The problem of evil
- God is perfectly good; a perfectly good being should want to destroy all evil. God is all powerful; an all-powerful being can destroy any evil; therefore, if God exists, there will be no evil, but evil exists, so God does not exist.

[sagara0510]

yeah, i know now, i understand, sorry, it was MY misunderstanding. yeah, i agree with you sagara0510 people who does good but didn't believe in god may have a chance of approval.but surely, because they ignored god existence, do you still think god will forgive them even though they saved 1 million lives and gave free money?

i believe if u save a million lives or cure cancer or something that benefits mankind you will have a good chance despite not believe in god

i believe if u care about those around you and do good deeds for strangers you will have a good chance despite not believe in god

i can ask you back too... if u kill 1 million lives and steal money do you still have a chance to go to heaven if u believe in god? will he forgive you?

[princessKitty]

well, although i am not jay chou21, idisagree with some of your points.


Thales of Miletus, the first great philosopher, created the basic foundation of philosophy through three rules.

1. Appearance and reality are not the same.
- What you perceive to be real, just by looking at it, or by feeling it, is not the actual truth of what that thing is.


So whatever a great philosopher says, you believe in it?what if he said, God does exist,and he explained philosipically would you believe that also?


2. Sense perception is no guide to truth
- You can never be sure that when you have appearance, you have reality.


God is like the sun. you cannot see him because he is too powerful and great. why does everyone want to SEE. it really annoys me, 'oh, i can't see God so i don't believe in him'. whatever :rasp: . if you don't believe in his existence, then don't question. beleiving in god is about trust not wanting to see evidence.


3. Logic is the guide to truth.

Parmenides of Elea, the second great philosopher said that in order to find truth, we must be both objective and just.


again, philosophers, philoseohers. at the end of the day, they are just human beings making up presumptions. what truth have they said that actually happened?
one said the world would end in 2000. what year are we now?


If he CHOSE not to create the universe, would that mean God would not exist?
If the maker of this website chose not to create this website, would it mean they don't exist?
NO!This point is irelevent.


Love is nothing more than a chemical process in your brain. It is caused by hormones. If we had no brain, we would not know love.

This love is not physical love, but a love for human beings. this term is used to show hoe God feels for us, the greatest emotion that we can use to show we care for someone.


The Big Bang Theory and the theory of Evolution are factual and once more, supported by empirical evidence.

Big Bang Theory
1. radiation in space
2. red shift of light
3. 75/25 hydrogen/helium distribution
4. galaxies are constantly moving apart from one another

Evolution
1. Fossils
2. Vestigial
3. embryological
4. Observation


The big bang thoery, who made it?who made space?how did that coe about?
Evolution:why aint animals evolving now? if we come from animals, which monkey told the first joke?


Scientists have proved that it is absolutely impossible for the world to have been created in 6 days. According to the Bible, the world is only 5,000 years old, but thanks to technology, we have proven that the earth is between 4 and 5 billion years old.


God is great and powerful, he can design the earth in whatever times it takes him. mere scientists cannot prove that.
and yes the bible says that the earth is 5,000 years old, but what time period was the bible written?
if i said i wrote this post week ago, and you read it a week after, then how long is the post, two weeks?or one week from what i said in the post?


If we wanna talk about experience, I suffer from bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, I used to suffer from severe depression, and have died once in a suicide attempt. I flatlined, and my heart stopped for a few minutes, and was in a coma for a few days following.

There was no light.

There was nothing.

Only pure blackness.

I was raised Christian -- my father was once a pastor. So I knew all about Christianity and everything within it, and regardless of how much I asked God to help me, regardless of how much I went to church, of how much I tried to heal myself through God, nothing worked.

It was a chemical disorder. It was something that could not be fixed through spirituality.

I am also a victim of rape. I am a victim of abuse. I am a victim of violent crime. God did nothing to help me afterwards. I found no consolation in his existence. I found nothing at all, and it was through my dependency on religion and on God that I devolved into a much worse place.

It wasn't until I denounced God's nonexistent help and began to seek methods on my own, within myself, that I managed to overcome everything that I went through.

But that is not how I know that God does not exist. Sure, it supports my argument, but such "experience" is not rational, and not logical. Why am I sharing it? Because I was in a far worse place than you, but somehow I got over it without God. In fact, I'm much, much better off without God.

Therefore, we do not need God in order to overcome our problems in life.


i am very sorry to hear about what happened and can understand why you feel that god didn't do anything.
everyone blames god, why did he allow world war one?why so many diseases?
it is YOUR own personal choice to choose to not have Gods help.


Logical arguments against God's existence


3. The problem of evil
- God is perfectly good; a perfectly good being should want to destroy all evil. God is all powerful; an all-powerful being can destroy any evil; therefore, if God exists, there will be no evil, but evil exists, so God does not exist.


This is a very good point. But, who created evil?wh is there evil. if god is good and there is bad, surely he exists because there is black and white, gold and silver, jay and patty. if there is just pure evil in this world, then there has to be good.

I hope is clear what i explained. i am talking from a bibles point of view, not logically or philosopher point. We can all go on about it but in the future, one day, we would all know the truth.

sagara0510if you show true repentanceand in your heart, you are Truly sorry, the yes, god will forgive you.
When jesus was on earth, many people did bad things but yet, he forgave them. why?because he loved people.
however, if they did really really bad things, then, no, god will not.

[twilighthush]

princesskitty:

I will repeat this one more time.

You cannot fight logic with irrationality.

You, my dear, are irrational.

Not a single one of your arguments adds up logically. You also completely misread everything I had to say. You also had the audacity to deliberately leave out integral parts of my arguments.

My only logical, rational response to you is this very condescending "HA HA HA".

And one more thing?

Learn how to read comprehensively. Don't read at face value.

[Darkness]

Darkness
it depends really what religion you are talking about, there are some religions where they expect you to pray a certain amount of days, and other times, you can choose out of your heart when to pray.
is your grandmother doing it becasue she WANTS to?or is it because she was TOLD to?ask her.

"you said some religions where they expect you to pray a certain amount of days" <<< who are "they"? I talk more about buddhism.

Lol! I can't ask her, because even if she was told to, she would tell me that it's her own choice lol!

[sagara0510]

hmmm

*me thinks whether he should get involved or not*

there are alot of holes in your arguement princesskitty but i don't think i want to pick at them

i will however pick at this

if you don't believe in his existence, then don't question

please don't tell others not to question. this is a topic debating the existence of god. the only reason this thread is even here is to question god's existence. if we all just stopped questioning then this thread wouldn't be here.

also everyone has their own opinion and their own views on whether god exists or not. you obviously have faith in god and we respect you but some people here are of different religion or are not religious at all but we all deserve to be treated equal and be allowed to express ourselves so long as we aren't rude and as long we respect each other

[KendoTiger]

To Jaychou_21:

1.love
Love is a pairing of hormonal changes, neural alignment, and interchanges of protein strings. The hormones obviously impact our sex-drive towards opposite, or same, sex partners ~ I am including most chemical processes within "hormones". Next, the alignment of neurons within the brain relate to our perception and like/dislike of stimuli ~ your soul mate's beautiful eyes perhaps. Finally, it has been proven that over time, people exchange small strings of protein ~ not semen -_- ~ which slightly alter people's biochemistry, to further enhance a "compatible" match. I am not sure what exactly happens on this last one ~ I'll do more research.

2.morality
No, morality is not a universal law that is given to us by our creator. It is a compilation of social norms that have been instilled on us through interaction with the rest of society. Why do you think that under law, you can't say that a 6-year old who murdered his baby sister is a "demon-spawned anti-christ" ~ because they haven't had the time to establish a realistic view of societal norms (under the law). This is based off of the documented evidence through psychology and biology, that social norms and "morality" are not inborn, but gained through experience and interaction.

3. knowledge
No. "Knowledge" is a complex process of building a neural network within our brain that allows us to react to stimuli ~ incredibly complex stimuli. As we learn more, the size and complexity of this network expands, so that we can effectively react to more things. If we do not use a pathway, it degrades, resulting in "forgeting things". It is found commonly in animals ~ such as gorillas who have mastered a working and concious use of sign language ~ also in terms of the realization of self.

4. Bible
This is your opinion, it's not fact, or supported in any way. Please don't say that it is simply because it is.

5. Evolution and the Big bang
Again, this is not supportive. It's only your interpretation of a "assurance clause" that was left in. Check with the interpretation of the Church fifty years ago ~ they didn't believe in the clause you're so vibrantly stating. And did you know that more people know of Muhammed Ali than Jesus Christ? Wow ~ it's an interestingly true fact.

6. Scientific truths
Again, you're taking creative license. Your statement doesn't add anything relevant, other than to try to discredit a man that the Church claimed was a heretic, by saying that the bible knew it first.

7. israel
No. It's not even worth arguing ~ and on behalf of all the people who fought in WW2, well, I'll leave it at that.

8. population
No. Based on population size, level of civilization, and evolution, there is no weight to your accusation. Obviously, a caveman isn't going to go around mining oil so he can drive his suv all the way to the grocery store where he'll buy 20 tons of plastic a year. Population growth is exponential, natural disasters non-withstanding, but still doesn't hold much impact; therefore, this isn't a problem.

9. progress
...
...
">_>
Through Billions of years of evolution, of both the natural world, and of the slime that eventually became our human brains. I can't believe you're stretching that quote to fit your argument. Honestly, the fact that we have greed is a natural occurance as animals ~ we want to ensure that we have the optimum possible; the only reason the animals aren't greedy is that they don't have the ability to think of "future", only their present needs.

10. time
No, it depends on which scientists you're talking to. I might call your attention to some new physics work, which gives four possible explanations for how time developed in relation to the universe ~ its within the last few years of Scientific American, I believe.

___
We all know that the bible, although it is debated whether or not to be true, has some good insight. But you can't say that this goes beyond it in a logical manner.

Honestly, I think it's great that you found salvation through your faith.
But, so sorry, it still doesn't prove whether or not God exists, only that your belief in Him exists.

*Knowledge is the best weapon we can rely on ~ even if it brings about unhappyness*

to princess kitty

philosophers
Yes, I would definitely give it more consideration, because it is logically put, rather than irrationally put. She included it because it points to the interpretation of what surrounds you, it wasn't a pointless inclusion. Think about it this way ~ hold up a pen in front of you. How are you sure it's really a pen? Because you can touch it, taste it, smell it, hear it tapping on your desk? How do you know you aren't in a computer like the matrix ~ ooh, scary thought. Well, I think I missed this point slightly, but it was fun to rant.

sense perception
This could be used to your advantage ~ use it already! Sheesh.

truth
Wasn't it a religious sect that stated that the world was going to end in 2000? Wasn't it a religious sect that committed suicide to "go to heaven on the wings of an angel [comet]?" Yeah ~ philosophers are reasoning through the evidence, not just taking an abstract look at the Bible. This isn't a supported argument ~ at least mention some things that the Church did ~ like that little girl who wrote to the pope and wrote about ww2 and stuff and they locked it in a vault?

Chosing to create the universe
Honestly, I don't think your argument proves any kind of point, but I'll agree that I'm relaly confused about twilighthush's reasoning and argument.

love
read what I put for jaychou_21

evolution and the big bang
Please don't tell me this is your argument. First of all, all of the theories have been proven not only through mathematical reasoning ~ checked thousands of times by skeptics who were looking to debunk it ~ but also by physical evidence. The big bang theory is based upon the expansion of the universe (velocity of sub-atomic particles), carbon dating (basing things on the decay of the particle), and many other factors. No one "made" space ~ its just the "vacuum" that exists as "filler" within the universe. There is such a thing as a "rocket ship", that took people into space, and even to the moon ~ which isn't made of cheese. Sorry, it's just that, you really need to do a little more research.

They are, although evolution is an incredibly slow process, that is brought about by dramatic changes. There are many different types of evolution ~ three types that relate to expressed traits, and many more than that on when evolution actually occurs. I suggest you go to the library and check out a college level biology book ~ sorry, I turned in mine already ~ and look at the 20-30 pages on evolution. It should give you a good idea of what happens.

Which monkey told the first joke?
-_-"

age of the bible
Scientists did prove it. Unless you believe that 2+2 = 5 (no pun intended). Based on theological evidence, the bible was written less than 5000 years ago. I'm not sure of the exact date ~ turned in my college world history book :/ . I'll find the exact date if you want it.

to twilighthush
I'm sorry too, it must have been very traumatic. I'm glad that you have managed to overcome your past ~ and beat us all up at the logic game :D

[twilighthush]

KendoTiger - Many, many kudos to you. Finally, you've given arguments that I really can't find any flaws in! Very, very nice demonstration of logical reasoning from beginning to end without any cracks in the middle.

Now this is what I was pushing and pushing at you for. v^___^v

...by the way, yes, I am deliberately ignoring your...consolation.

I didn't share my story to get sympathy, ne. ^^;;

[dagamezmasta]

3. Logic is the guide to truth.


i'm not saying that logic is bad.. and i admit we have to use logic in debating about God's existence.. but logic does not guide to truth. for example... logic and instinct would tell you that there can't possibly be any kind of motion that has no cause at all. this feeling, that the idea of motion without active cause is foolish, is one of the "intuitive" fellings which have kept mankind back for thousands of years. It was adopted by Aristotle, twenty-three centuries ago. The first inkling that it was a grand illusion, not a reality in Nature, came from Galileo's experiments........Newton drew a bold and sweeping generalization. He asserted that there are two kinds of motion for which no cause need be supposed: the obvious case where there is no motion at all, i.e. the condition of rest, and the case where the motion, no matter how fast, is quite uniform and in a straight line. Every other condition, said Newton, has to have a cause, and he called that cause a force.

just one more thing about that logic theory.. it says that the illusion was first adopted by Aristotle. Note that Aristotle was a philospher himself. I rest my case.

i am not putting God in the same catogory. is like us humans are ike animals. we are same catogory but not in that sense. get it?

and also, i am a christian and i was deeply hurt by you saying, God will reward those who does good rather than those who worship him. :depresse:

if you don't belive in God, please do not say things like that. it is horrible and is quite offending to those who does worship him.

k if i actually offend you by what i'm going to say, i have to say that this post isn't meant to offend, but rather to point out some weird things, in my opinion. so, sorry if i offend you. however, if God is all-forgiving and all-loving... why is it that he shows so much bias for his worshipers, as you seem to state? i mean.. i would perfectly understand this in a humane situation, but God is divine. the bible (mind you, the word of god) states that He Himself is all-forgiving. you later said that people who did good deeds "may" have a chance... isn't God supposed to be fair? i mean.. what if all the people who did good on the world were atheists and all the people who were criminals and stuff were christians? i'm not saying it's this way.. i'm saying.. IF. then who would go to heaven and who would go to hell? please answer that question for me. i would like to see a christian's point of view.

[jaychou_21]

To the logical thinkers who trustworthily rely on other people's knowldege:
I have read stories about intelligentmen who have devoted their lives to the pursuit of knowledge and glory to themselves.At one point in my life,just like you,I thought they were great men who have transcended the limits of human understanding and have shown the best of human abilities.I was wrong.

I had the chance to read the lives of several great thinkers in our history and was inspired by their accomplishments.Yet,I was discouraged by their own plot,their own studies,their own theories,which they did not have the power to recreate.Then I asked,what was their wisdom for?

If such wisdom would push an artist to kill himself,a writer to become a hermit,or a philosopher who despise his own neighbors,then what was their wisdom for? Could it be even called wisdom? Or is it just false knowledge that led us to believe in things we can't be very sure of?

If such wisdom would make man proud and declare himself equal with God,then I don't want the wisdom of the world.
Many people have turned away from God and even denied His existence,because their newfound theories claimed that man came from animals.

What I'm trying to say here is how can you believe those theories and scientific explanations if the scientists and philosophers themselves are frail enough to handle themselves? I mean,they try to promote an image that they know almost everything but later on,it proves that they can't even handle their own mental capacity and go insane? Would you still believe a person (say a philosopher - a lover of knowledge) that seemed to be too profoundly knowledgeable to be questioned but a few years after he made a breakthrough revelation that stunned ther world,he was discovered to be suffering from grave mental disorders? It's just a proof that knowledge comes,but true wisdom lingers.And the truest wisdom is knowing that God exists.

I hope you get my point. I do not fully trust people who claim their theories,discoveries and experiments are right. I would rather believe the contents of the Bible for its anonymity and the unwavering wisdom found in it.

The Big Bang theory? The theory of evolution? Unless they have made the rest of the world believe that it is indeed true and not just plain theoretical and hypothetical,I would consider those scientific theories defying the existence of God Pseudoscience.

Now,twilighthush,you do believe that we evolved from primates.But how did the primates came about? Where did they come from? WHO created them? Those theories are rather unconvincing because the so-called evidences provided by the scientists who declared and supported this theory are rather vague and ambiguous.If it isn't,why do many people still believe that God created us?

If we wanna talk about experience, I suffer from bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, I used to suffer from severe depression, and have died once in a suicide attempt. I flatlined, and my heart stopped for a few minutes, and was in a coma for a few days following.

There was no light.

There was nothing.

Only pure blackness.

I was raised Christian -- my father was once a pastor. So I knew all about Christianity and everything within it, and regardless of how much I asked God to help me, regardless of how much I went to church, of how much I tried to heal myself through God, nothing worked.

It was a chemical disorder. It was something that could not be fixed through spirituality.

I am also a victim of rape. I am a victim of abuse. I am a victim of violent crime. God did nothing to help me afterwards. I found no consolation in his existence. I found nothing at all, and it was through my dependency on religion and on God that I devolved into a much worse place.

It wasn't until I denounced God's nonexistent help and began to seek methods on my own, within myself, that I managed to overcome everything that I went through.

But that is not how I know that God does not exist. Sure, it supports my argument, but such "experience" is not rational, and not logical. Why am I sharing it? Because I was in a far worse place than you, but somehow I got over it without God. In fact, I'm much, much better off without God.

Therefore, we do not need God in order to overcome our problems in life.

To twilighthush: So,that's the reason why you despise God?
How shallow...to think that you are a former pastor's daughter? I do commiserate with your feelings and I understand your sentiments because I,myself,am a victim of abuse.
But that's not enough reason to give up my faith.Unlike you,who surrendered your belief in God and stop believing in Him after He didn't help you escape your fears and ease your burdens,I continued my trust in God even if the times were hard.It didn't came out that good but I thought it was just a test given by Him to see if our faith is in Him is strong.Yours is probably lopsided and you're just relying in His grace to save you anytime,anywhere,anyhow.But that is false faith.That's probably the reason why you succumbed to massive disorders - it's because your belief is wavering,fragile and weak.You didn't put your trust wholeheartedly on Him and now,you're dubious about His existence.No,you are not doubting - you are trying to convince everybody that there is no God.If you were traumatized,that's because your dubious of God's existence.You do not fully believe in Him so you went astray and now,you want other people to share the same belief with you.Once again,I can empathise with your feelings and inner sentiments from your past experiences but look at me now,those traumatic events almost made me lose my faith just like you did but when I saw the positive and brighter side of those obstacles,my faith even grew stronger and that made me feel God's presence - made me know that God exists. Logic cannot explain His existence because science,philosophy and logic will never ever detect nor disprove the existence of God,for our Father is a spiritual entity and He is the only one who knows the truth behind every being's existence.

Kindly remember this: The wisdom of the world does not make us intelligent before God.
"We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up,but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know." (1 Corinthians 8:1)

...

[princessKitty]

I will repeat this one more time.
You cannot fight logic with irrationality.
You, my dear, are irrational.
Not a single one of your arguments adds up logically. You also completely misread everything I had to say. You also had the audacity to deliberately leave out integral parts of my arguments.
My only logical, rational response to you is this very condescending "HA HA HA".
And one more thing?
earn how to read comprehensively. Don't read at face value.

Yes, I delibrately left some of your points out why?because i have some sort of disability that i cannot understand your very-high-philosiphical-look-at-the-logical-way-of-things-attitude. I cannot be bothered to answer your points anymore because i am going around in a circle. :wacko:

Darknesswell, i talk about muslims and other religion. they have to pray about five times a day. hmm....your grandma would say that would she, well, try and maybe you get an answer. :-)

sagara0510I'm not saying that don't question. all i'm saying is, i think it is disrespectful to question if you don't belive in god. to question means you don't believe. if you don't believe, then what is the point questioning?you all want evidence?you are not going to get it, is all down to trust.

i
i mean.. what if all the people who did good on the world were atheists and all the people who were criminals and stuff were christians? i'm not saying it's this way.. i'm saying.. IF. then who would go to heaven and who would go to hell? please answer that question for me. i would like to see a christian's point of view.

again, like i said before, some christians today claim to be christains but yet they do bad things. would they still get rewarded?would criminals get rewarded if they were christians?I'm I God?

Jaychou21 i absouletly agree with you. i cannot express fully in words because of my disabilty and you helped me explained. :-) exactly?who created primates?And the truest wisdom is knowing that God exists. :-) :-)

I really think why i got into this discussion in the first place :?

[sagara0510]

sagara0510I'm not saying that don't question. all i'm saying is, i think it is disrespectful to question if you don't belive in god. to question means you don't believe. if you don't believe, then what is the point questioning?you all want evidence?you are not going to get it, is all down to trust.

umm...if you believed in god why would you question? only those who don't believe in god would question god's existence. your comment is contradictory.

[princessKitty]

but i'm i questioning though? i'm here to try and prove that he does exist but i give up now. is like writings 1000 lines over and over again. :depresse:

some peope do scare me here. :cry:

[sagara0510]

what people scare you?

do you see non believers as evil hideous people? are they not normal good people who love their families and friends? and yet you look at non believers as if they are blasphemous because they do not share the same beliefs as you?

this thread is about the existence of god. you have to expect people to come here and say they don't believe. its not being disrespectful its just them expressing their opinions. just like what you are doing. you are expressing your view that god exists and they are expressing their view that god does not.

that is why it is called a debate because you will have people arguing both sides. if you cant accept that then i suggest you visit other less conflicting threads than this one.

[jaychou_21]

Don't be scared,princessKitty. :happy:
We ought to prove to them that God exists.
We may not get a reward for doing it but doing so will not only make Him proud of us,
it would likewise somehow influence other's belief anyhow.
If you give up now,do you think the non-believers will believe His existence otherwise? :?
No,they definitely wouldn't because they do not possess the greatest wisdom of all:
Knowing and feeling from deep within that God Almighty do exists.
Jia you! Hwaiting! :yeah: I'm here to back you up. :shiny:
:angel:

[sagara0510]

i hope you two aren't on a crusade to try and convert the non believers into god worshippers.

this is a debate about the existence of god. not a 'convert all the sinners' thread

you still have to respect other members views and beliefs as they do respect yours.

[princessKitty]

sagara0510 NO!!!!!! I did not say that non-believers are hidoes evil whatever you call it people. PLEASE!!don't say things that i didn't say. i don't like people doing this. i know this is a debate forum but i didn't expect it to come this far did I??!?!?!?
and thanks for the unwelcoming statement you put at the end.
we are not people who try to convert people beliefes, yes everyone is entitled to their opnion but it is like people here try to change out beliefs into thinking god doesn't exist. please look at things the other way. :dry:

jaychou21 thankyou for comforting me!! you are a great inspriation. :-) :-)

[jaychou_21]

i hope you two aren't on a crusade to try and convert the non believers into god worshippers.

this is a debate about the existence of god. not a 'convert all the sinners' thread

you still have to respect other members views and beliefs as they do respect yours.

I'm not here to convert the non-believers into worshippers.
My mission is to let my voice out and my opinions be heard.
This is a debate forum,right? I know that we are entitled to our own views.
And I certainly respect each and everyone's opinion and belief
because I want the others to do the same thing.
I'm just trying to help princessKitty get her views right on track
because we're on the same side of the argument.
No hard feelings everyone.
I'm just being fair as much as possible.

...

[sagara0510]

its not a comment to make you feel unwelcome it is merely a suggestion because you really have to expect a debate to come this far

i was just saying that if u are not prepared for people to take the issue further then u might feel better in a different thread.

i'm looking at the issue both ways and yes i agree there are those here who are trying to say that god doesn't exist. i've only raised this issue to you because you seem to be taking it abit more personally than the others and i'd just like to give u a little message to try and calm you down.

[princessKitty]

its not a comment to make you feel unwelcome it is merely a suggestion because you really have to expect a debate to come this far

i was just saying that if u are not prepared for people to take the issue further then u might feel better in a different thread.

i'm looking at the issue both ways and yes i agree there are those here who are trying to say that god doesn't exist. i've only raised this issue to you because you seem to be taking it abit more personally than the others and i'd just like to give u a little message to try and calm you down.

I'm a not calm?oh, how do you know?can you see me?i am perfectly fine!!i don't get sloppy over this forum. and i am not taking it personally. is like your trying to describe me as weak, can't handle things, little girl.
anyway, lets forget about it yeah?and stick to the topic. I am ok. :-)

[sagara0510]

no i can't see you. there is no need to be sarcastic

but the way you are replying is giving me the impression that you are not. i am not describing you as weak and i honestly have no idea how old you are and i wouldn't presume to guess

i just get the impression that you are flustered and frustrated with some of the replies on this thread and was just trying to encourage you to keep an open mind on the subject

[princessKitty]

you sound more softer now.
one thing, sorry if i sounded sarcastic, i did'nt mean to sound like that.
secondly, I am FINE. i am not frustrated, flustered, uncalm or whatever. i am OK.
thirdly, it don't matter what age you are, you can still have a mind set of a four year old even if you are 27 or something. Now, that is another issue and debate. :-)
now lets go back to the subject yeah?

[twilighthush]

Quite frankly, jaychou_21, I think it is appalling that I responded to you in a diplomatic, logical, rational manner and you were juvenile enough, and had the audacity to respond to me in such a disgusting, vile way.

You don't know the first thing about me.

So don't fucking assume.

I set up two rules in the beginning.

And one of those rules is that a debate is not hostile argument.

You just made it hostile.

Please remove yourself from this thread.

[KendoTiger]

to princess kitty
She wasn't doing it to be mean to you, your arguments were just so far removed from making any kind of reasonable, intelligent argument, that she couldn't respond in any other way. I am not saying that you can't, just that you didn't.

jaychou 21
Firstly, don't comment on their lives and their work ~ you don't hear me going around insulting the instances of church priests raping young boys, or that the current Pope was a Nazi. If you can't reasonably disprove their work, then don't critisize it just because you don't believe in it.

Their actions were to make the world a better place, to bring knowledge and reason to it ~ not to appease people. How do you know that God doesn't want people to evolved [not biological sense] into people of a higher being, who might be closer to His perfect image? After all ~ He made us in his image, why wouldn't He want us to grow? How do you know it's not a trial?

If you are so intelligent that you don't believe in evolution, despite the mountains ~ litterally ~ of evidence, then I'll bow to you. If you can prove that it didn't occur ~ I'm sure you will be famous and manage to convert millions to the good book. Oh, and it is accepted as truth throughout the civilized world, because it did happen.

Again, separate their work from their personal life.

We don't say that they are right because they claim to be ~ thousands of scientists, both supporters and critics, repeat what was done, with modifications certain times, and prove to themselves and the world, that it is the closest to the truth. With many repititions, sometimes with new information, the old theories are revised.

So, if some random, unknown person were to write something, you would believe it? Wow, how gullible ~ er, I mean trusting. Just because you have "trust issues" with people who state the obvious, well. Unwavering? ">_>

If you could actually make a decent argument, you would tie in the theory that God planned out evolution. Instead, you debase the whole thing. So-called evidence? If you actually READ THE BOOKS, instead of saying they're crap, maybe you would learn something.

Look, once again, at least do some research of opposing views before attacking them as vague and ambiguous. Obviously you've only read a basic level book which states general terms of the concept ~ not the indepth explanation, reasoning, data, and citation of repeated experiments by others, that comes in a high-level book. If you did, you might find answers to your questions.

As for why so many people have strong faith ~ it's because the majority of people who are so set in their faith, that they believe anything that isn't an interpretation of the Bible is lies, live in rural, uneducated third world countries. I'm not saying all of them do, just the majority. This is because religion brings them hope.

Honestly, I am sorry that I am being so critical of your views. I do, despite all of my arguments, believe in God. But there is a difference between being faithful, and saying nonsense while turning a back to the obvious. So don't try and convert me ~

[dagamezmasta]

again, like i said before, some christians today claim to be christains but yet they do bad things. would they still get rewarded?would criminals get rewarded if they were christians?I'm I God?



i do not get what you're trying to express. there are christians who believe in God.. but they're just too selfish and don't follow the bible and do bad things. are you saying that they'll go to hell, or that you don't know? if you don't know.. then why write that you're insulted that jason said that good nonbelievers should go to heaven instead of bad christians?

I'm a not calm?oh, how do you know?can you see me?i am perfectly fine!!i don't get sloppy over this forum. and i am not taking it personally. is like your trying to describe me as weak, can't handle things, little girl.
anyway, lets forget about it yeah?and stick to the topic. I am ok. :-)

eh.. you do seem to be taking this a little seriously, though you seem to have confirmed that you are fine. just for your information, puncutation plays a big role, and also capitalization. when you use so many exclamation marks and that "NO!!!!!" it seems like you're quite frustrated or anguished. also, your extensive use of "?!?!?!?" gives the same feeling that you're anxious or something.

Don't be scared,princessKitty. :happy:
We ought to prove to them that God exists.
We may not get a reward for doing it but doing so will not only make Him proud of us,
it would likewise somehow influence other's belief anyhow.
If you give up now,do you think the non-believers will believe His existence otherwise? :?
No,they definitely wouldn't because they do not possess the greatest wisdom of all:
Knowing and feeling from deep within that God Almighty do exists.
Jia you! Hwaiting! :yeah: I'm here to back you up. :shiny:
:angel:

you could perfectly have PMed this.. if you were gonna only have a message to one person on this post. this has no debate value. it seems like you are merely stating something without any kind of persuasive techniques, or you're just trying to convert people, even though you're not even using anything to convert the non-believers.


we are not people who try to convert people beliefes, yes everyone is entitled to their opnion but it is like people here try to change out beliefs into thinking god doesn't exist. please look at things the other way. :dry:


isn't this partly what a debate is about? the main purpose of the debate is to ponder over and discuss the existence of God, but in doing so, you have to use persuasive techniques to orient the other to your point of view. and isn't christians also trying to make nonbelievers believe in here? aren't christians trying to persuade us nonbelievers to start believing? if you're not trying to persuade... what are you trying to do in here?




last but not least, i have a question to the Christians, because they probably know about God and what he's supposed to be like (through the word of God, a.k.a. the Bible) more than i do. now.. does the bible say, without doubt, that God is all-mighty, all-forgiving, and all-loving? that simple question is all that i want answered. if any of you could enlighten me on this subject, it would be much appreciated.

[sagara0510]

daga keep in mind that Christianity isn't the only religion to believe in God

perhaps that last paragraph of yours should be directed to people of all religions and not just Christians.

[KendoTiger]

I only think he stated it that way because there don't seem to be any jewish or islamic people posting ~ only christians. Besides, he oriented the question to christians - it's not like he's asking the christian interpretation of the judeo/islamic view of God.

[sagara0510]

i know he's orientated the question towards christians. and i know only christians seem to be replying. but if the quesiton was directed to every1 who believes in god, then perhaps it may encourage members of different religions to participate

[Merriana]

whoa.. it looks like a fierce debate was on the forum....ok back to the topic... :D
i think god is not exist in this world...(and i'm not atheist.. i'm christian :D )because he's not an object you can grab,smell,taste...i'm not saying Jesus not existed you know...i think god is something you believe in your heart...
and i think religion was made because it makes ppl to do nice things...cuz many ppl think that as long as their bad behaviour doesn't get punished in this world then they're free...but religion makes it'll get punished in hell...y'all can understand what i mean right?? :D
anyway this is just my opinion... :-)

[masterxkae]

Do you believe that God (i.e. Judeo-Christian-Islamic Conception) exists? If so, how do you know that he exists? If not, why don't you believe that he exists?

Well, with all my heart and soul (sounds pretty corny, but it's true) I believe that God exists. God has done so much in my life and even though there are times I seem to think God is putting me down, He's not. He is so great and wonderful, nothing compares with His love. I truly believe that God exist because he's helped me through many troubles. When all else fails, there's God, telling me I shouldn't give up and whenever I hear that voice inside me, I know that God will help me. God will not lead you stranded on an island and not help you. I'm pretty sure that anyone here that loves and know God, knows what I'm saying. God is truly amazing, even ocean and the waves bow down at His feet.

[dagamezmasta]

whoa.. it looks like a fierce debate was on the forum....ok back to the topic... :D
i think god is not exist in this world...(and i'm not atheist.. i'm christian :D )because he's not an object you can grab,smell,taste...i'm not saying Jesus not existed you know...i think god is something you believe in your heart...
and i think religion was made because it makes ppl to do nice things...cuz many ppl think that as long as their bad behaviour doesn't get punished in this world then they're free...but religion makes it'll get punished in hell...y'all can understand what i mean right?? :D
anyway this is just my opinion... :-)

wait i'm not sure.. you're saying that religion was invented just so people will follow good conduct and such.. but you still believe in God?

and by the way.. if that's the reason that religion exists.. it doesn't seem to work. i'm sure you've heard of the many Christian priests that have molested small kids.

[hoobahubba]

kingthey -- You've probably already seen me say this a few times already, but your arguments are very, very flawed -- logically.

According to almost every single living and dead philosopher, God, by definition, is all-powerful and all-good.

People say that corruption is caused by evil, and evil is caused by Satan. But if evil is created by Satan, and Satan is created by God, then therefore evil is created by God. But this contradicts the second part of God's definition -- that he is "all-good". Because all-good would imply that he is perfect goodness, but perfect goodness would imply that there is no evil.

The fact that God's very definition contradicts himself, when we brickwall into your argument, actually disproves the existence of God, because such a contradiction is a negation, and a negation means that something does not exist.

couldnt one argue that dark is simply the absence of light, cold is simply the absence of heat, and evil is the absence of good? where there is evil, there is a lack of belief in God. God did not create evil, humans did.

then again, im atheist.

[syzygy]

I hate to jump in this blindly...(as in not really reading the other post >.< (gimme a break there are 8 pages to wade though lol)) Anyways...I don't really affliliate with any religion. I had a taste of Christianity when I was little...not much...just like going to a religious preschool...and I had a taste of Buddism as I've been growing up...but I don't really afflilate with that religion either...it's more of a cultural Chinese thing more than anything for me...that being said...

I do not believe in God. I think the theory of evolution and teachings from the church about how the sun revolves around the earth was good enough for me. Then there were missionaries...I'm not a fan of missionaries. Converting people is no good...ask them once if they're interested in your religion...if not don't speak of it again. As long as you don't try and convert me and discuss how great and amazing God is on a regular basis with me, we can be friends. :-) my 2 cents on the whole God issue.

[junnleenfaah]

sorry if i'm being off topic here, but just to ask syzygy [which btw, is the most awesome word in the world to use for hangman :P]: so is it bad for christians to talk about how great God is JUST to say it.. not like they're trying to convert you? cuz try to take it from their point of view, they just wanna express what they feel and its what they're called to do [evangilise], so i dunno, i would give them a break if thats what their morals are and i dont see why anyone should be allowed to not respect one's morals. *shrugs* i guess trying to be a little more open wouldnt hurt that bad

again, sorry i was kinda off topic [er okay.. a lot off topic. admins can delete it if they want]

and [B]hooba, about the dark is the absence of good thing.. there's a sorta debate about that on page 2-3 if you havent read it already, just to give you a heads up (:

[syzygy]

I don't mind it as long as they don't try to convert me. I'm very simple lol. I have yet to have someone bug me when they're talking about God. I'd probably let them know if it got on my nerves though.

[KendoTiger]

Yeah, I understand. I mean ~ talking about the greatness of God is fine, but don't be like, "you heathen should convert or you'll go to hell and suffer eternal damnation, jesus died for you, you need to love him, etc". Yeah, missionaries, despite bringing many good advances to underdeveloped countries, tended to go "convert or I'll kill you".

Uff, don't get me started about the demarcation line.

I think what gets on my nerves, is when someone is so blind in their faith to ignore common sense and proven facts.

That being said, despite being annoying now and then, I still think they are good people.

[dagamezmasta]

I think what gets on my nerves, is when someone is so blind in their faith to ignore common sense and proven facts.


what d'you think about christians who deny the theory of evolution though? in my opinion, evolution is very, very likely, and all the facts about it make sense.. though it's still a theory.. and christians deny it. you say it angers you when they ignore common sense and proven facts. evolution isn't proven, but it's the most likely thing we have right now. what d'you think about them denying the theory of evolution?

[amdawn]

I don't believe in the existence of God - a being who is overpowering and oversees the well being and torture of others. I see it more like the forces of Nature and the Laws that are held under that Nature. It may be true that noone created us; elements came together in a hotbed of chemicals that beautifully evolved over billion of years into us.
We created God in our image because we were fearful of being alone in the world without understanding how we came into being. We continue to create religious icons to explain what we cannot explain. It is hard to think that creation of this world is through Science and not by an omnipresence Being. It lacks emotional force and thus it may be easier and comforting to think the world was created by a Being.

[KendoTiger]

Well, I admit, it's not a "fact", I only used it to support my argument since I could not think of another word that would more accurately describe it. I didn't want to put "theory", because some people would affirm that it is just "philosopher's crazy ideas".

Still, it is the most proven theory in existance, and I still wish for you to provide one reliable, existing piece of evidence that disproves evolution ~ then I will admit that it isn't a fact. I'm limiting the range of definitions for "facts".

That said, I think my original point stood. I can appreciate people who believe that there is something more than what is readily apparent, but I dislike it when they have total disregard for something so clear as evolution.

Actually, there is a hilarious bit of commentary on this subject ~ within one of the sequels to "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", specifically in regard to the Krickters (sp?), and when they discovered that they weren't alone in the galaxy.

[twilighthush]

Okaaaaaaaay! Time for me to guide this debate back onto the road it's supposed to be on since we teetered off completely.

Let me restate the ground rules of a debate over God once more and quote myself:

-----------

First, I will begin by explaining what all of this is. Ultimately, this is philosophy. Philosophy is defined as the rational study of religion, and philosophers are defined as lovers of knowledge. Therefore, we are searching for knowledge, and the knowledge we are searching for here is whether or not God exists.

But the only way we are allowed to search through God's existence through a philosophical way is by rational means, because that is part of the definition.

This means that anything that is not rational can not be part of this discussion. The rational include empirical evidence, logical reasoning, observation, and the scientific method. The irrational include anything that is metaphysical, dogmatic (Scripture), faith-based, or organizational-based.

This means that the majority of many of your arguments can not be used, and will not be addressed because they are all irrational, and irrational logic is incapable of proving the existence of God.

Thales of Miletus, the first great philosopher, created the basic foundation of philosophy through three rules.

1. Appearance and reality are not the same.
- What you perceive to be real, just by looking at it, or by feeling it, is not the actual truth of what that thing is.

2. Sense perception is no guide to truth
- You can never be sure that when you have appearance, you have reality.

3. Logic is the guide to truth.

Parmenides of Elea, the second great philosopher said that in order to find truth, we must be both objective and just.

------------

What many of you did in the past two pages was say whether or not you believe in God's existence and why, but you didn't adequately explain whether or not God exists. So, for those of you who would like to prove or disprove God's existence, please give us hard logic.

what d'you think about christians who deny the theory of evolution though? in my opinion, evolution is very, very likely, and all the facts about it make sense.. though it's still a theory.. and christians deny it. you say it angers you when they ignore common sense and proven facts. evolution isn't proven, but it's the most likely thing we have right now. what d'you think about them denying the theory of evolution?

The theory of evolution has not been proven, and is not a fact. But the EVIDENCE of evolution is a fact. So what does that tell you?

[dagamezmasta]

The theory of evolution has not been proven, and is not a fact. But the EVIDENCE of evolution is a fact. So what does that tell you?

it tells me that evolution is the most sensible and likely thing we have right now.

though that was probably a rhetorical question.

[junnleenfaah]

but there's also evidence that God exists.. so don't you think that would be just as sensible?

**perhaps you should totally ignore what i say even though i agree with what i say, yet i will admit, i dont have my proof with me right now. you can totally disregard what i just said.. but just to let whoever know, there is evidence. anyway, think whatever you want. yell at me for not following the rules, take away rep points, do whatever, but dont take away my freedom to let me speak my mind.

[KendoTiger]

I don't think she's saying you can't say that you can believe in God, or speak your mind about the Him, only that the point of this thread is to put out logical evidence for or against His existance. She's only getting frustrated because not many people are doing it.

I mean, the whole point of a debate is to put forward your point and why it is rational. Things like saying, "there's evidence, but I don't have any" won't convince people, so it really doesn't help out the debate.

*shrugs*

[twilighthush]

but there's also evidence that God exists.. so don't you think that would be just as sensible?

**perhaps you should totally ignore what i say even though i agree with what i say, yet i will admit, i dont have my proof with me right now. you can totally disregard what i just said.. but just to let whoever know, there is evidence. anyway, think whatever you want. yell at me for not following the rules, take away rep points, do whatever, but dont take away my freedom to let me speak my mind.

I don't see why you're pointing this out, considering the fact that I argued both for and against the existence of God at one point or another in this thread for the sake of the debate. *laughs*

[junnleenfaah]

I don't see why you're pointing this out, considering the fact that I argued both for and against the existence of God at one point or another in this thread for the sake of the debate. *laughs*

mm well i wasnt even really talking to you in the first place, but okay. you're such a bitch sometimes, twilight, take that as a compliment (= and i think it's good that you argue for both sides. question though, you argue for both sides, but because of that i dont really see which side you take, so i'm curious, what side do you really take?

[dagamezmasta]

twilighthush is an atheist.
Great points that you made, Kendo -- I'm really enjoying this discussion so far, but there are a few things I want to address, as before, in regards to the arguments you posted just now. (First of all, let me just say that I have absolutely zero belief in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God. I am merely playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of a good debate!)

post #7 in this thread. first page.

[twilighthush]

twilighthush is an atheist.

post #7 in this thread. first page.

I'm agnostic. I don't believe in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God. XD I do, however, believe that there MIGHT be *a* god, or higher being, of some kind in the universe.

Just not the one that's from the Bible.

XD And yeah, I know I'm pretty bitchy. <33

[POTO]

I always believe in the existence of God, heaven and hell. All these may seem very mythical and unreal. However, if we try to think about where do we came from, where will we go to when we passed on one day, god is actually the answer to all our questions.

[KendoTiger]

Um...how?

Question: Where will I go when I die?
Answer: God.

Question: Where do we come from?
Answer: God.

Question: Why is the earth so fucked up?
Answer: God.

Question: What is 6 + 7?
Answer: God.

Question: What happens if you add two kangaroos to a banana split and eat it with a monkey?
Answer: God.

OMFG. GO GOD GO! HE can answer EVERY question! o_O;;

So, conciousness is just the firing of electrons within our brain - through an intensly complex series of circuts; we react to stimuli according to which pathway the electrons take within our head. When we die, the neural network dissolves, decays.

Based off of this, couldn't I say that:

1) "Near-death experiences" are impossible. Even if we were to move on to a higher plane of existance, the ability for the physical neural network to record the experience (by creating new/reinforcing existing pathways) would need to be active. If you could pass beyond the physical to the incorporeal, then the neural network would have to be non-functional (ie - definition of brain death), and therefore unable to create the pathways needed for you to "remember" the experience later.

2) The ability to be concious after death is impossible. Following the same train of thought.

Honestly, sometimes I believe we tell ourselves that God exists merely to excuse ourselves from how much of our lives we waste.

[spideysam]

hmmmmm err.. there will be one god for all the human races in the world... we cant question all of the religions in the world.. so i believe there is exsitence of god in the world.. but sometimes life can be harsh...

[Melvin]

hah, been reading the arguments in this topic for quite a long time now.. but seeing how well the posts were written I didn't dare give stupid comments.. lol

I always believe in the existence of God, heaven and hell. All these may seem very mythical and unreal. However, if we try to think about where do we came from, where will we go to when we passed on one day, god is actually the answer to all our questions.

I think what POTO meant when she mentioned that 'god is actually the answer to all our questions' is that when we question how we came about, where we will go to when we have passed on, who created the universe, the dimensions and such, you would eventually find that the most fitting answer would be that God created all these things..

Even then, lets look at this from a critical point of view..
So what even if God does not exist?
If everyone today would know that God does not exist, will people not treasure their lives anymore, and not be so concerned about doing good things and avoiding sin for the sake of going to heaven? Would the revelation that God is non existent do any good for the people living on Earth? I would think not...

Well the above is off topic a little...


Honestly, sometimes I believe we tell ourselves that God exists merely to excuse ourselves from how much of our lives we waste.

I think I really agree with this statement... I think its crazy how we waste everyday away... just like now i'm here commenting on an online forum, i'd be better off studying..

but anyway, isn't it good for us to believe that God does exist? It keeps us in check - we are afraid of punishment from God for cheating, commiting sins, and we won't turn into a rotten apple.. I sometimes feel that we have been told that God exists merely to keep us as 'good' people... It creates a fear in us in doing anything bad or harmful to others..

[optictrd]

I think this is a bunch of pure straight out BULLSH*T i dont believe in god created this world i think its science but that could also false but i say i believe that more than god made this world. i mean dont get me wrong i respect that you do think he did create it but to me i dont....

[KendoTiger]

Melvin - the only problem with saying that God is needed to ensure morality is the fact that the world doesn't seem to knowtice.

If you look - the more nonsecular the society, generally the more advanced it is - whereas the extremely fervent tend to be wartorn at the moment.

I'm guessing this is because a society based off following "His law", can easily give rise to the idea that "they are heretics who insult our God! We must kill them off! God is on our side!"

*shrugs*

[Alex25]

Science
Science belives that monkeys transformed into humans, but Christianity said that God made the first humans. So WTF?
-Chrisitianity bible, (New Test.) is written mainly by 4 deciples, however, who knows, the 4 deciples might just want to start a new religion or their fiction people

[crazygiggles13]

the online dictionary defines God as

1. a)A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and
ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in
monotheistic religions.
b)The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by
a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or
reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.

..i dont kno if one really does exist, but what's the harm in believeing and having faith? all religions ask you to treat everyone nicely and stuff like that. i guess that could make the world a better place...

[midori]

If Darwin's evolution theory is true (and I believe it is), then all that the bible presented about God must be false because they believe in Creatism, which is similar is intelligent design.

[wanie_jay]

i believe in da existence of god. i came across this book that makes me think...
all of us know atoms-the small unit of of every elements. atoms are the basic elements that form molecules, etc..etc..
and inside this atoms are the moving electrons. the movement of these electrons determine whether something's functioning or not...

the question is, what or who moves the electrons?if these electrons doesn't move, then, there would be no chemical or biological reaction...there must be some sort of a unseen, mighty power that sets the movement of all these.....

and, if ur saying that u can't believe something that u can't see, then, what are the things called soul inside of us? we cant't see our soul, but, we do believe that we have one? why is it so hard to believe in god?

[TheSuperOne]

Sometimes i really feel there are existence of god. My sense told me all this, i think we're protected by god too. I don't why, but sometimes, i will feel all this.

Like what peoples usually say, believe in god.

[KendoTiger]

i believe in da existence of god. i came across this book that makes me think...
all of us know atoms-the small unit of of every elements. atoms are the basic elements that form molecules, etc..etc..
and inside this atoms are the moving electrons. the movement of these electrons determine whether something's functioning or not...

the question is, what or who moves the electrons?if these electrons doesn't move, then, there would be no chemical or biological reaction...there must be some sort of a unseen, mighty power that sets the movement of all these.....

and, if ur saying that u can't believe something that u can't see, then, what are the things called soul inside of us? we cant't see our soul, but, we do believe that we have one? why is it so hard to believe in god?


If you say everything is made of electrons, then God must too. But then why doesn't he exist in a physical form? Ever hear of "anti-matter"? What's up with that? You should read up on it...

What moves electrons. Yeah, read up on that too. Something to do with energy...

How do you classify a soul? As our neural network that make up our brains? Or what? The easiest way to describe a soul is that sentience within us (separating us from animals ~ who says animals have souls? is there an animal heaven?), which is existing, as our brain :D

If God really chose everything, and was the reason for everything, what the hell kind of being is that? He has to give you some free choice, but then you can't say that "everything is his will", because what about the evil people? It's "HIS" will for them to sin and go do hell? Bleh

And how did your senses tell you this? I'm so glad taking a deep breath of fresh air will make you believe in something. I should really hang out with you ~ here, take a breath from this can...yeah, you owe me $20. Yay >_>

-_- God...keke...

[zhoudaoyan]

wow. i finally found a topic which needs me to think hard and write a lot!!
yay! my new year resolution this years to become a nerd you see..
so time to practise!!
hehe

here goes!:


do i believe in god?? Yes i do!
why? well actually, i dont know..
but honestly, it's 50%influence and 50%experience.

Since young, parents have told me about God and the bible and god's stories and stuff. And i went to church and Sunday school. and with all that talking about this guy called God, the little me of age 4 would believe that this guy was really something! he MADE the world. i didn't quite understand.. but hey. if everyone else likes him.. i guess he's a friendly guy huh?? lol
Also, how was the world made, God seems like the best explanation (:

My own experiences: I find that when i lose stuff and i really cant find it.. been searching for over a month in every single nook and crany of the house.. i pray.. and like soon after that.. i find the object in the most obvious place ever.. which i must have looked for it there like a million times..
Also i find that when im rude to my parents and like shout.. i get hurt.. straight after.. --> gods punishment?? haha!

and the bible.. its true what!
i mean, what kind of sick crazy person is going to sit down and write a story about stuff that happens over millions of years!

[KendoTiger]

But you realize that for the 'experience', it's merely you calming down and looking at the obvious (just like how people say "you find stuff when you aren't looking for it"), and just a natural reaction to a stimulus (if I touch a hot pan, I get burned -> not punishment, just stupidity?), keke. I'm very amazed that you are open-minded enough to say that some of it is due to how you were raised - most of the people I know who are strong in their faith ignore it. Good for you :)

What we really need, are some outrageous claims that have to be slowly broken down to be fought. Hmm....

I'll post a few in a bit ~ gotta do some research first.

[atomik86]

anyone ever see the movie DOGMA? i think it brings up a great theory. doesnt matter what u believe, as long as u do. i guess i can say i believe in sumthing of a supreme being of sort. sumtime i label it as god cause i guess ive gotten use to labeling it as that. im a firm disbeliever of religion though. as an institution it seems flawed. so many ppl causing hate and unnecessary dispute over who has the better religion or who's justified in their beliefs. sumtimes i just think everyone has the message all wrong. at the core of everyone's belief seems to be the idea of goodwill and love. shouldnt that be enough? im calling no one liars or false prophets but sumtimes their religious doctrines are a lil far fetched. one such idea is the concept of heaven. in christian beliefs it is said that entrance to heaven is given through life of good deeds and recognition of god, jesus, holy spirit, etc. firm believers of literal translation of the bible say that despite a philanthropic life u lead of good deeds and sincere kindness, heaven is off limits b/c u dont believe in god. i ask how can that be if they generally claim their savior to be the ultimate manifestation of love. little things like that just doesnt add up. then again maybe it shouldnt. maybe im wrong, but in the end i have no regrets. if im punished for spreading the ideals of every religion thru acts of kindness and care, then so be it. on one hand we need to enjoy life and smell the roses. we cant be caught up in this religion thing. with too many limits and regulations, how are we to evolve, develop and break boundaries? maybe the human race is thinking too hard, harder than they have to. simply put "where is the love" :)

[viickyma]

I do not think a god exists for many reasons but one reason is that n most religions, they say that their God has been their since the beginning of time. Basically that he was never created and has always existed. If such a complex and all powerful God could have just always been "here," then why cant "simple" beings such humans have always existed also? However when i think about this issue, i always just confuse myself even more. Most people wonder how people, the earth, or the sun came to exist and they reason that a god HAD to have created these things. However who created this god? how come he is able to just be THERE since the beginning of time? i guess it boils down to the question of who came first, the chicken or the egg.

[KendoTiger]

If God is perfect, why not just multiply himself, and make other perfect beings? Why would He chose to make ones with flaws? He must have a mental problem >_>

Don't use the Garden of Eden: if Eve took the apple - she had flaws (stupidity), as well as the snake's apparent "slyness" and "deception".

[SHiNBO]

well here is something i learned from my philosophy class...

its called the problem of evil... first we must assume that god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.

if the previous is true then why is there evil

if god was omnipotent then he would have the power to wipe out all evil....

if god was omniscient, then he would know how to wipe out evil

and if he was omnibenevolent then he would want to remove evil from the world...

something like that, i might have forgotten something took it like 3 years ago

also... can god microwave a burrito soooo hot.... u know... :glug:

[Zhaohe]

I personally do not believe in god, and any of these Christian religions.

To follow a book written by a group of men who lived that long ago, just doesn't seem right. Yes it was written by a group of men.

Did you know the Bible also states that you should beat your children? and that long hair on a man is a sin? (Anyone look at Jesus?)

The bible as a moral code to follow would be horrible, it supports prejudice, violence, discrimination, etc.

[KendoTiger]

Well, at its basic tenents, it supports "justice and morality"; well, at the very least, it supports being nice. The problem is when idiots try to use abstract references from a highly edited and rewritten text to justify their actions. Uf, I see those television preachers doing it all the time -_-

At the very least, the black (evangelical/baptist) preachers - I'm not being racist, it's something I've observed - are a lot more energetic than those old white guys. Seriously, they infuse their preaching with common sense and energy, not just a lot of random quotations and saying "God says this, God says that". *shrugs*

Why does it seem that the "most christian" asians are koreans? They're freaking fanatical o_O

Let's say a little something worthwhile: We'll try removing each of those three mentioned characteristics and see what we get.

Sans - omnipotence
So He's not all powerful: maybe He just had enough power to create that small spark of life. He's all-knowing and all-good, so he used what he had to help [whatever] along. So he's buddha? Oh well ~ I'm getting lazy.

Without omniscience
Just a kind-hearted fool with unlimited power. He does stuff, has no idea what the hell he's doing, but hopes for the best. This isn't "god-like", just amazingly scary...it's like giving a 2 year old a button that destroys the world...how the hell can you respect that?

Finally, without omnibenevolence
He's the devil ~ there is no God. But in that case, public morality would never have developed in the first place. Yet, without "good", there can be no "evil", as you need something to contrast it too. This is similar to the "good cannot exist without evil" quote. In this case, some "good" force must assume the role of anti-God (devil?). Unfortunately, if He had some benivolence(sp), then good would not necessarily have to exist - but that would leave him with human-like emotions. Based on human imperfection, and the truth that "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" Lord Actin? - he would become evil - but without established good (only the notion of it). Er - its similar to breaking a law on an island - even though you know you've "broken" the law, there are no police to enforce it. In this case, we would all be screwed.

[Shay]

Kendo...I don't understand why you removed those 3 characteristics? o_o Your points there are all a little too hypothetical for me I guess. I don't see where it's going?

But anyway, I'm very lukewarm about whether there is a God. And I don't feel like I believe him enough to say that I am a christian...You can say I'm very confused I guess.

On the one hand... believing that there is a God gives everyone hope. Hope that someone will make sure that things are fair, that bad actions go unpunished, that there is someone protecting us and that things will all be good one day when you are in Heaven. I wonder... Is that so bad? Even if it is 'false' (if there actually is no God) hope? Everyone needs some kind of hope, coz without it, it would be difficult to live not being able to find meaning in the bad things that happen in life.

And there is evil because ...the way I've been told, Earth is kinda like a test. God gives us free will and observes what we do with it. If there were no evil, wouldn't Earth just be Heaven?

Anyway...I'm pretty hazy on the existence of God...(as you can probably see) I mean, what about people who do not believe in God yet do these amazing deeds. Do they go to Hell because they were raised to believe another religion...or just chose another religion (because let's face it..there are a lot of choose from...)? It doesnt seem...fair?

Sometimes i really feel there are existence of god. My sense told me all this, i think we're protected by god too. I don't why, but sometimes, i will feel all this.I (unlike some people...) respect that you feel that way. Sometimes you can't explain what you believe with logic or words really... It's just what you believe to be true.

[xiaoting]

I personally do not believe in god, and any of these Christian religions.
To follow a book written by a group of men who lived that long ago, just doesn't seem right. Yes it was written by a group of men.
Did you know the Bible also states that you should beat your children? and that long hair on a man is a sin? (Anyone look at Jesus?)
The bible as a moral code to follow would be horrible, it supports prejudice, violence, discrimination, etc.
I'm Christian and I'm sorry to burst your bubble.

And I'm not sure about a group of men. The Bible was written over a period of time - a LONG time. so, obviously, it couldn't be written by a group of men that physically talked to each other and discussed what they were writing about.

Yes, the Bible does say that you should discipline your children. But downright beating them - no! it says
"Do not withhold discipline from children; if you punish them with the rod, they will not die. Punish them with the rod and save them from death." Proverbs 23:13-14
Disciplining is totally different from beating! Haha, and you don't need to take the words too literally. I'm sure parents use a paddle to spank their kids, but as long as it doesn't go all the way to abuse then it's ok. You don't have to use a rod =P

The whole long hair on a man was sin during that time (Old Testament). But since Jesus was crucified, a lot of the old routines have gone away, such as sacrificing an animal. Jesus = new sacrifice.

To follow the Bible as a moral code would be wonderful!
And how does it support prejudice, violence, discrimination, etc? Tell me that.

Sorry, not preaching or trying to convert you guys! I'm just getting the facts straight - Especially when someone who hasn't read or doesn't know a great deal about the Bible. If you have a Ph.D. in some kind of philosophy class, then, yeah, I'll assume that you know the Bible.

[KendoTiger]

Well, when something you hold as the absolute truth tells you that it's forbidden to worship anyone/thing but Him...what happens to all those people of other religions that are just as trusting in their faith? They won't convert anymore than you would to their religion ~ so what happens?

There are actually many passages that support (at least in fanatical...strict interpretation) prejudice, violence, discrimination, etc. I'll find some for you ~ just for you ;D

I swear, if Susannah found out everything I was saying... she'd probably be in tears o_O

[sam_ho]

i think that god exists...but im not catholic... instead i'm a buddhist..^^''

[KendoTiger]

Yeah, I was talking with a friend about racing ~ insulting each other. And eventually, it drifted to one of the three things we can NEVER talk about: religion, taiwan, and physical punishment.

He was going on and on about how if you don't accept Jesus as having died for your sins, you're going to hell. And I was asking what happened to all the people in the past who couldn't hear the word of God through the devices of man ~ flaw of lack of information. So yeah ~ can anyone help clear this up?

Er ~

You have to accept the Word of God ~ but what happens to the people who couldn't hear/read it due to the flaws of man (being unable to spread it because of lack of technology).

[ichigo fairy]

i'm not affiliated with any religion, but i do believe in god. when it rains, i sometimes think "god is crying" or "angels are crying." LOL ^^;;;;; :shy: sometimes my belief in god does waver.....when i think about the ppl that are less fortunate than me, i wonder if there really is a god. and when things go *bleh* in my life is another time when my faith in god wavers.

[ask4more_jay]

i totally believe in God!
1. i'm Christian
2. if there was no God, how are we on earth and how was everything made?
3. well, i've FELT God before
4. my friends have seen angels (ii'm so not kidding)
5. pure Faith
i totally believe in Jesus Christ!

[kaye21]

*sigh...after reading through the whole lot of posts....

here's my two cents:

God exists...he is somewhere out there...

humans have searched high and low for Him...but deep inside every human being's heart lies a question, WTF ARE WE HERE?...

and the only answer that human beings "in general" can 'fess up is "a supernatural force put us here"

[msv]

If God is perfect, why not just multiply himself, and make other perfect beings? Why would He chose to make ones with flaws? He must have a mental problem
If God make others exactly like himself, up to perfection, then God wouldn't be singular and that would contradict monotheism in Christianity. More importantly, God wouldn't be all powerful or all supreme if there were others just like him, and thus, he wouldn't be God.
Don't use the Garden of Eden: if Eve took the apple - she had flaws (stupidity), as well as the snake's apparent "slyness" and "deception".
Don't call Eve stupid. The apple had the knowledge of allowing one to tell right from wrong. So, before Eve (and Adam) ate the apple, they couldn't possibly know what was right from wrong. So even if God told them not to touch the apple, they wouldn't know that it was wrong, just that God told them not to.
To follow the Bible as a moral code would be wonderful!
And how does it support prejudice, violence, discrimination, etc? Tell me that.
Btw, the bible was still written by men (even if it took them and their followers a very long time). Nowhere in the bible does it state specifically that God sat down and wrote the bible and gave it to the people.

Actually, if you look at the history of Christianity and on some of God's supposed decision or action according to the bible, its filled with violence and discrimination along with the love God had for his followers. For instance, was it really merciful and all loving of God to punish Adam and Eve in the form of exile for their indicretion even though they were ignorant of their crime because they were made out to be so? Or what about the twenty-four thousand people who God killed because they worshipped Baal? Or all the men, women and children of Jericho that God commanded to be killed? That's hardly nonviolent now.

I'm not here to criticize Christianity or God because everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and I respect that (since I want respect for my own beliefs too), but I hate it when only one side of the story is told.

Oh.... faith and philosophy do not mix by the way. :shifty:

[twilighthush]

Oh.... faith and philosophy do not mix by the way. :shifty:

Well said. I couldn't possibly agree more. :D

[lil~jo]

msv

I'm not here to criticize Christianity or God because everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and I respect that (since I want respect for my own beliefs too), but I hate it when only one side of the story is told.


very well said, I am a christian myself.
And you are the few people who can manage to express your opinions without hurting others. Though some of your opinions do not match mine, I too accept your views and I am very happy to read what you have got to say.

However...
kendotiger
Originally Posted by KendoTiger
If God is perfect, why not just multiply himself, and make other perfect beings? Why would He chose to make ones with flaws? He must have a mental problem

Please do not say God has a mental problem. If you have an opinion you need not insult other peoples Gods.
I am a fervant christian, and you do not see me saying that all other gods are fake and dumb or have a mental problem.

[KendoTiger]

I love how people ignore the meaningful posts, and decide to go for the short flamatory ones instead :D.

Assuming that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-kind - as any God shouldl be...


if god was omnipotent then he would have the power to wipe out all evil....
if god was omniscient, then he would know how to wipe out evil
and if he was omnibenevolent then he would want to remove evil from the world

msv:

If God created other beings as perfect as himself, assuming he was the personification of perfection, then He would only be able to make copies of himself. Basically - the only way He can truely create "other" beings that are perfect is if "perfect" is undefinable (ie - white vs. black - there is no "perfect" color); but then, God, being undefinable (in the sense of perfection), would not be able to exist.

Now, if He made multiple copies of himself, then 1) it would not contradict monotheism as it is still the *same* being, 2) assuming they were copies of Himself, there would be no conflict as they would do exactly the same thing as He would have originally. To sum it up - the *number* of God would be completely pointless, other than to take up space (or no space - depending on your definition of Heaven).

In other words, it is possible for God to create perfect beings while retaining His position. < Is right :D

Eve is stupid. Muah!

If the apple contained knowledge, and reasoning ability, then before she (and he) ate the apple, they were stupid. Unless you define "stupid" as something other than a lack of knowledge and/or complete lack of reasoning ability. Point made.

lil~jo:

However...

Thanks so much....

Wow, admitting you're a zealot...um, but doesn't that have bad connotations? *looks it up* it does. < this is not an insult - don't take it as one.

Um, I'm Christian btw ~ so I'm not calling "other gods" anything. Oh - and if you look carefully, you see I always refer to God as Him (with capitals)...yeah. Thanks for noticing.

Anyways, back to my points.

I stand by my statement that it is lunacy for an "all knowing, all powerful, and all kind" (perfect) being - God - to create flawed beings as opposed to perfect ones. Explain to me how making a flawed being "in His image" makes any kind of sense. And please don't say "because that is His plan" - there is a difference between faith and blind ferver.

Let me explain as you might not know.

Faith is believing in your heart and soul that God (in any form/s) exists, and willing follow basic human morality (in addition to any texts you personally believe in). To strive in mind, heart, and body to be "good" - to apologize and seek forgiveness for your sins - and to be honest with yourself and to others.

Blind Ferver is when: someone tells you "He wants you to do this", anything you can justify yourself doing by saying "it is His will", or finally, any action that goes beyond common sense in the pursuit of "religion". This is what leads to fanatasism, conflict, and hate. It is this blind, irresponsible ferver that is the bane of every religiously-motivated disturbance, and which is one of the plagues of the world.

I have faith; I hope that others don't have ferver.

[Rurouni[X]]

wow Lots of replies to this..
Lets keep this simple
Im a Catholic..
Secondly.. Im not the Pope.. Im not Pious.. hell im closer to being a Atheist..
Anywayz the foudations of Christianity is History,
Its Proven.. Its History.
Noah's ark.. The coordinates and way to build it.. Scientists have proven that its design would be the best design for a Boat if you didnt want it to sink.. If you wanted to sail it ong distances.. well ur screwed..
Anywayz God isnt proven.
You cant prove it.. thats why they call it a Faith..
You have to have faith and believe yourself.
God created us for Fun.. Technically speaking.. The possibility of a big bang that created the universe and everythiing we know.. The chance that it happened.. Ok so it May have happened.. however.. the chance... is approx 100 Billion to one.. probably more..
For something to come up with the Unique Ecosysten and the Sun and a Planet that can habit human civilisation and allow people to evolve is technically.. Inprobable.. Not impossible.. just Very Very Very Very Very very very VERy very Unlikely...
Why is it so hard to believe in Divine Intervention..Although im not a Die Hard christian i got to church and Youth.. Hell im a Youth Leader..
I teach Children and teenagers about God.. about Jesus.
Even if it is so hard to believe it leads many people to better lives..
They become better people..Filled with Morals and equality.
It makes the world a better place.. Is it that hard to believe in Electrons and Protons spinning around a nucleus..
Scientific Miricales happen everyday.. Is it so ohard to believe Christian Miracles.. Today Faith is replaced by science.. (Sorry for the Dan Brown Talk)..
Christianity is not a bad thing.
Even IF it is a faith with no rela idol or God.. If you are looking for Heaven.. Maybe there is none.. Maybe there iis only Oblivion.. But Sanctum and Sanctuary... Prayer.. Faith.. Somewhere you can feel welcomed.. and Loved.
Morality - Faith.. they are the same thing
oO
^^"
Phew heavy topid :D

[Mika:.]

I'm agnostic. I think there is a God, but I'm a bit sceptical on God being male, being human of appearance, creating the universe, and so on and so forth.

There has to be a deeper meaning to our existence. Nobody can satisfactorily explain how or why we are what we are now.

Everyone's entitled to their own beliefs, of course (no matter how many times it's been said, it still stands). Faith is something that guides our actions and paths we choose to take. Our beliefs affect who we are as individuals, so we shouldn't try to inflict them upon anyone else.

[akane_chou]

i believe that God exists. there is no proof. but i believe He exists.

supposedly, there is no god. praying is actually a state of mind, a state which we are able to think clearly, much more clearly than usual. and that state of mind offers us a solution. that we call it, answered prayers.

but because i firmly believe in God, even though this "scientific" analogy has it's logic, yet i dont believe it. we'll probably never really know if God exists until we "join Him" but even if we knew then, it's abit too late to tell the people on Earth huh? :wink2:
:

[khmerchef]

I strongly believe in the existence and the will of God. We are Christians, and we are to strive to be more Christ-like everyday. That includes accepting and loving everyone, even our enemies. Why do I still believe in Him after all the terror and torment going on the world? It is because with the existence of God, there is also existence of Satan. It's an ongoing battle, that we will never know when it will end.

I believe in the Lord creating the world. I find it hard to believe that every existence on this planet came from two giant rocks colliding into each other. Everything, science-related is strung together so complex, so perfectly. The way species reproduce, the life cycle, there's just got to be more than "us" evolving from single celled organisms.

Theory of evolution? I find very contradicting. If we did evolve from primates, then why are there still apes, gorillas, etc in the world. Shouldn't they have evolved too? And if evolution exists, then why aren't other species in the ancient times evolved into more intelligent creatures too. I believe that God created us in his image. Now, image could mean things other than, well, "image". It could mean that he created us to reason, to think beyond the instinctive capabiliities of normal animals. You can't take everything in the Bible too literally.

When it all comes down to it. Faith is the key to believing in the existence of God. I think that the hardships and all the stuggle going on in the world is just a trial, a way of testing our true character. Think of it as a challenge, to see if we are truly worthy to attain the treasure of heaven.

Final Note: There are hypocrites out there in the media, who claim they are Christians, condemning those who are not following in their path. Don't let this fool you. Christians are supposed to be acceptive and to love everyone, despite religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc, and the list goes on. They give true Christians a bad name.

I am so sorry for the rant, but those are my homest opinions.

[xiaoting]

Btw, the bible was still written by men (even if it took them and their followers a very long time). Nowhere in the bible does it state specifically that God sat down and wrote the bible and gave it to the people.
Actually, if you look at the history of Christianity and on some of God's supposed decision or action according to the bible, its filled with violence and discrimination along with the love God had for his followers. For instance, was it really merciful and all loving of God to punish Adam and Eve in the form of exile for their indicretion even though they were ignorant of their crime because they were made out to be so? Or what about the twenty-four thousand people who God killed because they worshipped Baal? Or all the men, women and children of Jericho that God commanded to be killed? That's hardly nonviolent now.

You know what? i had a difficult time believing in God because of this. God had cruel punishments, but he did warn them. He said to Adam and Eve that if they ate of that specific tree, then they would die. He WARNED them, yet they still didn't listen and ate from the tree. But God didn't kill them, did He? Even though there were severe consequences, He had mercy and Adam and Eve didn't die.

And for those He killed....God also gave a warning to them. God waited for them to turn from their sins or immoral acts, but He couldn't wait any longer. Evil does spread quickly, so He had to kill them. He cautioned them many times that if they continued, they would die...and so they did, because they didn't stop.

Agh, that was so cheesy. i can't believe i typed that...-_- but whatever.

so anything else?

[attentionxreader]

To be honest, I don't believe in God. I'm raised a Buddhist, and I've also been researching on other religions. Especially Christianity. Coz' it's just fun to see people argue over it and stuff like The Da Vinci Code.

If you read the Bible, you'll find that certain verses contradict each other.
For instance, in one verse it says that God is love and that he loves all that He's created. Yet, in another verse, He says that He shall smite whoever stands in His way of whatever.

In my personal opinion, God is actually something that our minds create in order to rely on something of "higher spirituality" or of a higher order.
People say that God created everything, doesn't that mean that God is technically nature? Isn't God really supposed to be Mother Earth? Hence, when people say that God is our creator, does this mean that they're referring to nature?

As for the Gospels, I personally believe that certain things in there are not entirely true. For example, they don't stick to their story. In Judas' case, the story doesn't stick in all 4 Gospels. In The Gospel Of John, he said that Judas is the epitome of evil, and is Satan's incarnate, yet in The Gospel of Matthew or something, it says that Jesus never stated who was going to betray him. And I saw this program on The Gosplel Of Judas a few days ago, maybe Judas isn't what he's been portrayed to be. Maybe Jesus DID order him to betray Him and maybe Jesus did tell Judas about the Heavenly Kingdom. Who knows? We can only believe in what we want to believe. Plus, these Gospels were not written right after Jesus' death. It was 100 years or so after that.

And I know that there have been a lot of controversies on Christianity alone. For one, it has been said that Jesus is actually a Buddhist. I have a book on that, and I practically devoured it. It says that Jesus really went to India in order to learn the Buddha's teachings, then he just changed them a little to form Christianity. Maybe what we're practising, isn't what they practised back then. Maybe, Jesus' didn't "die" on the cross, and didn't rise up on Easter Sunday. Maybe he passed out? And then went into a coma, and THEN was rescued by Mary Magdalene or something? We don't know exactly what happened. This is just something we read from the Bible. The Bible may not be right about everything just so you know.

And I ran out of facts and my brain's been squeezed dry of everything. So, I'm sorry if this offended anyone, but I am entitled to an opinion. So, don't attack me or whatever.

[Rurouni[X]]

Mika
God is not male.. he is not Human appearence either.
Those who truely believe know that the church in order to make their God seem more....... real made him like the Greek god Zues. God isnt really a Old man with a White flowing beard.
God is a energy source. he is a spirit.
Even though he said i will shape Humans after himself. Genises has to Fact.. just written down..
The bible was not wrote by God.. but by men.
^^"
(da Vinci Book)

[KendoTiger]

Of course God is a man! Don't you watch family guy?

*It's a good thing we can't go back in time to meet Jesus*

[kamceng]

how'd you know God is a man? have you ever see him?
i firmly believe in God, and i also believe that God doesn't have any human's characteristic.....
He's hard to be described....
anyway, it's all up to what your religion right now,every religion have their own God and all of them are different...
there are religions which believe in many God, and there're religion which only believe in one God, like me.....
so, it's all up to your principles and beliefs....

[xiaoting]

To be honest, I don't believe in God. I'm raised a Buddhist, and I've also been researching on other religions. Especially Christianity. If you read the Bible, you'll find that certain verses contradict each other.
For instance, in one verse it says that God is love and that he loves all that He's created. Yet, in another verse, He says that He shall smite whoever stands in His way of whatever.
As for the Gospels, I personally believe that certain things in there are not entirely true. For example, they don't stick to their story. In Judas' case, the story doesn't stick in all 4 Gospels. In The Gospel Of John, he said that Judas is the epitome of evil, and is Satan's incarnate, yet in The Gospel of Matthew or something, it says that Jesus never stated who was going to betray him. Plus, these Gospels were not written right after Jesus' death. It was 100 years or so after that.
And I know that there have been a lot of controversies on Christianity alone. For one, it has been said that Jesus is actually a Buddhist. I have a book on that, and I practically devoured it. It says that Jesus really went to India in order to learn the Buddha's teachings, then he just changed them a little to form Christianity. Maybe what we're practising, isn't what they practised back then. Maybe, Jesus' didn't "die" on the cross, and didn't rise up on Easter Sunday. Maybe he passed out? And then went into a coma, and THEN was rescued by Mary Magdalene or something? We don't know exactly what happened. This is just something we read from the Bible. The Bible may not be right about everything just so you know.
To be honest, you say a lot of maybe's. it seems like your opinions are a little shaky. And, if you could, please document your sources!

Also, how do you know if the Bible is incorrect? And what, may I ask, is incorrect? And how do you know if the Gospels were written 100 years after Jesus' death?! And what proof do you have if Jesus was a Buddhist?

I can't really say anything about your opinion since there are so many holes in it! =/ Back up what you're saying with proof and evidence. I'm not attacking you or doing anything like that. I just wanna see if you know what you're saying.

He was going on and on about how if you don't accept Jesus as having died for your sins, you're going to hell. And I was asking what happened to all the people in the past who couldn't hear the word of God through the devices of man ~ flaw of lack of information. So yeah ~ can anyone help clear this up?
Hey Kendo. I'm glad you brought this up! Actually, no one really knows. =P I mean, I can't say anything...no one can. Really I think it's all up to God.

Haha, sorry. Yeah, crappy answer, but who the heck can answer a question like that?

[chenyi_tw]

i believe that God exist.
if He doesn't exist, we wouldn't be talking about His existence:
first of all, we couldn't be alive and second, we wouldn't talk about Gof if there isn't one.
there was a big bang, ok, but.. before the explosion, there was a enormest rock that came form a atom.. but.. where did the atom came from? from a magic? oOoH~ (magic are lies.)
i've realised that people doesn't believe that there is a God because they don't know that spiritual life touch us in our emotions, heart, and not with the mind.
our mind is too straight, because we have to see to believe, spiritual world isn't like this.. it's more real than we think..
people think that eternal life doesn't exist, because we never saw a thing that it is. and it's impossible. we think that all the stuffs have a start and a end.
think that spirit doesn't exist, because 2 stuffs can't be in the same place at the same time.
when the worst things happens, you always have to blame someone, and in the most of times, it's God's fault..
God gave the "free-will" (i don't know if its right, in portuguese is "livre arbítrio") so that we could choose stuffs, and not to be a robot. that's why we are if He loves, He let you choose. why we have in mind of what its wrong and right? because we are the image and similarity of God, and we got some characteristics, like emotiong, He laughs, He cries, .. like us. He loves, but the true love. God is love. and i feel it. God its the reason of my life. even a atheist, can't remember the name now, said that "unless there is a God, there isn't a reason for living"..
i believe in Him because i got faith.

[attentionxreader]

To be honest, you say a lot of maybe's. it seems like your opinions are a little shaky. And, if you could, please document your sources!
Also, how do you know if the Bible is incorrect? And what, may I ask, is incorrect? And how do you know if the Gospels were written 100 years after Jesus' death?! And what proof do you have if Jesus was a Buddhist?
I can't really say anything about your opinion since there are so many holes in it! =/ Back up what you're saying with proof and evidence. I'm not attacking you or doing anything like that. I just wanna see if you know what you're saying.


I'm not saying that he WAS one. It's just a huge possibility. I wouldn't know if he was one since I wasn't alive back then.
As for your proof, http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm.

And I never said the the Bible was incorrect. I said that it MAY be incorrect. I just stated my opinion on the matter. And as for the Gospels being written years after the crucifixion, they were believed to be written on 70AD. I'll just post where I read about it.
http://www.geocities.com/questioningpage/Jesus2.html

[Rurouni[X]]

haha yes i DO watch family Guy... sometimes
Nah he Ccant be a man.
hes spirit.
Even though supposedly Angels look like Men and God is a the highest ranked Angel.
I hope u were being sarcastic haha
^^"

[twilighthush]

"He can't be a man. He's a spirit."

How do you know "he" even exists? This debate was originally created for logical argument. I don't see any logic here.

[Arkiro]

Well I was born in Puerto Rico (they say that it is the place that God's religion is most known to the people, a lot of people over there believes in God and goes to church ever Sundays and prays, ect.); anyways from the people of Puerto Rico is how I got to learn about God, The Bible, and everything.
When I was in 6th grade I had a really really great teacher that would always answer my crazy questions. So one day during lunch, we were talking and I suddenly came up with the question "Miss, how does human really know if God exist and that he is the one who created everything?" Then she told me "Well humans know that God really exist by faith, faith is what lets them know that God does exist". Then she told me "how do you know that the Great Wall of China, the Tower of Paris, ect. really exist". So I told her "by picture". But then she told me "ah, but how do you know if the people aren't faking the pictures, what they say, or what they show in tv, it's by faith that you believe the Great Wall of China really exist". So finally, that's how I got my answer and knew that God really exist.

[jaychou_21]

"Well humans know that God really exist by faith, faith is what lets them know that God does exist".

Ditto that.
Since God is a spirit and not in a human form anymore,
only those who have strong faith are the ones who can feel His existence.

The Bible may have flaws after all but it was not written to convince people that God exists.
There can be no concrete or material proofs that God exists.
Only intangible matters such as faith and true wisdom can make you realize the existence of God.
After all, God never tried to show himself to makind in this generation by making modern-day miracles.
But what happens in our daily lives, have you come to think what or WHO would have
caused OUR existence on this planet and all the living and non-livings around us?
Question your inner self first - not your logics - before you doubt.
It's just a matter of faith.

PS:
Logic vs. Faith
That's what makes it very difficult to make both ends meet when it comes to topics like this.
This argument wouldn't be settled without making both parties have a fair share of logics and faith.
I'm done with it and found out that not everything can be explained by logic or scientific claims.
It's just a matter of faith.

[Arkiro]

I've been seeing many people say in this thread that God came to earth :glug:. Are people confusing the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ with the Father (God/Jehovah) :worry:? Well the three of them is considered the same (the Holy Trinity), but from what I've learned I never heard that God has came down to earth :wink2:, or there may be some things I haven't learned yet :whistle:.
By the way, the religion from which I've been teached is "Catholic", but I also know about "Jehovah's Witnesses". Oh also I haven't been baptist, I just believe, have faith, and learn :oops: :happy:.
P.S. - if I'm not allowed to talk a lot about religion in the forums, please tell me, so I can stop :whistle: :shy:

[KendoTiger]

Then she told me "how do you know that the Great Wall of China, the Tower of Paris, ect. really exist". So I told her "by picture". But then she told me "ah, but how do you know if the people aren't faking the pictures, what they say, or what they show in tv, it's by faith that you believe the Great Wall of China really exist". So finally, that's how I got my answer and knew that God really exist.

You know those things exist because you can fly, swim, boat, walk (etc - you get the point) to them and touch them. You can see, touch, taste, hear, and smell them! There is nothing but an incomplete lie in her words. Well, I'll give her credit and say that she was attempting to explain her views by making up an answer that would fulfil your desire.

Sorry, but there is no faith invovled in their existance.

And I have yet to understand how this answered anything (for you, personally); could you please explain further?

The bible can either be interpreted as the direct word of God, or as the word of God recorded by man.

In the first definition, as God created Man "in His image", then we would have to assume that God is, by pure truth, not only Human (looking), but also a man.

In the second definition, we can include both bias and lack of understanding (on the part of man) -although divinely inspired- which resulted in the incorrect portrayal of God as a man; the ability of God, as a spirit, to assume the form of a human when relating to them (the people).

I think it's great that everyone is willing to state whether or not they believe He exists (regardless), and that you have faith in Him. But could we please also relate to the current topics being discussed within this thread? Thanks.

[Arkiro]

You know those things exist because you can fly, swim, boat, walk (etc - you get the point) to them and touch them. You can see, touch, taste, hear, and smell them! There is nothing but an incomplete lie in her words. Well, I'll give her credit and say that she was attempting to explain her views by making up an answer that would fulfil your desire.

Sorry, but there is no faith invovled in their existance.

She ment before you...fly over there or...swim over there...or walk over there, ect. :dry:. How do you know that Egypt really has pyramids if you haven't been there? And if you say, "because everyone says there is and people has been there", then...how would you know if they aren't telling you lies?

[KendoTiger]

Because YOU can go there.

Because YOU can see them.

Because YOU can touch them.

Because YOU can taste them.

Because YOU can smell them.

Because YOU can hear them.

That is how you know they exist - not by faith.

There is a difference between believing the world ends at your own eyesight, and having faith. If you do not understand the difference, then I'm afraid I can't help you.


how would you know if they aren't telling you lies?

Wow, you have no faith in your fellow humans - so terrible.

Anyways, I reread your post three times, and all I got from it was that you believed in Him for absolutely no reason other than people told you He exists. Let me explain: by comparing Him to the "wonders of the world", and then questioning the existance of those said wonders by saying there is no sure way to know if they exist (other than by the word of people), you question His existance. There are a few problems - not only do you then question the sincerity of people (with your later post) which seems to support the inexistance of God, but you do not mention the difference between a provable existance (physically traveling to the "wonders") and an unprovable existance (God's - which we are debating now).

[candiegal]

i believe that god exists. i started believeing that he did when my sister told me about him when i was about 10. she prayed to god that the angels would protect me when i was sleepng so i wouldn't have night mares and they actually did protect me . i woke up from my night mare. so thats how i started to believe in him and through faith. i believe in god because when i am troubled or something good happens i pray to him and he answers my prayers. but you have to wait patiently. sometimes he doesn't answer straightaway. he has made my a more better person and i can tell. i just feel happier when i became a christian.

[Arkiro]

Kendo,

You really don't understand what I'm saying :dry:. But anyways I'll just jump to the other part so we won't have to argue about the first part. Anyways, "HELLO!, are you blind?" Can't you see that now in days there are a HELL lot of people that steals, cheat, kills, lies, ect.? Yes I do have friends and best friends and I trust them but I can't say that I trust them 100%, cause I never know if they are double personalities.

Lastly NO I don't trust and believe in God because people tells me :dry:. There are many reasons that I think God is real, one of them is because he created the universe and everything. Life never started in a crash of a meteor or the process of evolution, cause there is no way that a monkey or whatever they say that thing or that animal was, could have been so intelligent to invent languages and words when they couldn't even talk.

[KendoTiger]

Who said He created the universe? Who said He created life? The bible?

Divinely-inspired or not, the bible [b]is[/i] a book. And the last time I check, a book is a collection of writings made by people - their words captured to express their emotions, point of view, and beliefs.

So I'm trying to figure out what, besides the bible, leads you to believe He exists.

No one believes a meteor instantly brought forth life... sounds almost as rediculous as it taking seven days... anyways, I digress. If you wish to learn more about how life was created based on the scientific theory - please read the previous pages (there are only 13 - as opposed to some other debate threads...). Also, please refer to the preceeding pages for information about evolution - as we've already discussed why evolution is reasonably undenyable(sp).

I have respect for those who believe in Him (or Them), but I do not have any respect for baseless fanaticism. The kind of "faith" in which people ignore what they see in front of them, the kind of "faith" which leads to hate and prejuidice, the kind of "faith" which assumes He is so useless as to be unable to create a system of evolution as a tool to create Man. Why do I keep repeating myself? Because I keep finding it. *sighs*

[xanimeotakux]

lol. i was browsing through this general forum, and i knew some topic about god was bound to pop up. and here it is. well, believe it or not, i am a strong atheist. why? i believe in evolution. god did not create us. god did not create everything around us, in my opinion. how do you think our hands look so similar to gorillas? i don't believe there is a heaven or hell. i watched on history channel that a few people have claimed that they experienced hell before. it was interesting to watch. the bible is said to be 'the oldest book.' i just don't think everything in it is true. i mean, 'god' making all the rules? saying that marriage is between one man and one woman only. that is our choice, not some 'powerful' person to decide. also, i don't believe in fate. i think our actions decide what will happen, i don't think that our life is decided before we are already born. the passion of the christ was interesting to watch, although i did not believe everything that happened in it. i only saw part of the whole movie, it was a boot-leg version. (sp?) also, there have been many arguments about the movie and book, the da vinci code. my friend says that they just copy things from the bible, and replace some words with others. i really can't exactly believe/not believe her. i haven't read the whole bible. i agree. even if god did not exist. people probably would have made something up anyways. saying that 'we have a powerful person looking at us from above.' 'we need to be forgiven for our sins.' 'no gay marriage' 'we were created by someone more worthy than us.' etc.