Should Taiwan be an independent country?

[KendoTiger]

Honestly, I'm not even sure if this thread is in the right place, but here goes:

Throughout the last couple of years, we have seen an evident rise in the conflict across the Straight of Taiwan - between the increasingly pro-independent (proportionally) Taiwan, and with Mainland China. Although China has asserted its right to the independently-functioning island as part of its natural territory, Taiwan's recently reelected president has moved ever closer to a nation-wide vote on independence. In response, China has passed legislation outlining the right to use military force ~ "as a last option" ~ to regain control of Taiwan. The simple question is, which side of the issue are you on?

Personally, I am siding with Taiwan ~ and it's not just because my family was basically destroyed by the communists within China. Here are my reasons:

1) Within Taiwan exists a democratic, elected government (although disputed results over the last election), resulting in a place of increasing personal freedom of speech and belief. Unfortunately, the communist party within China has tried to consolidate their power recently, resulting in new bans over the internet and other types of media.

2) This leads to the evolution of music. Music within mainland china has had an encredibly(sp) slow evolutionary state, compaired with such places as Korea and Japan and Taiwan. Not only is the music industry very small, supporting (population proportion wise) less musicians than even in the united states, but the quality of production is noticably lower (except in a few other cases). If Taiwan were to reintegrate with China, I believe that this would have a detrimental effect to their evolution of music as well. Such artists like Jay ~ although I doubt there are many with his talent/skill ~ would never get an opportunity to launch their careers. (this point may not be clear ~ so tear on it, or ask for clarification if you want).

3) Taiwan is a major industrial port of the world, and the economic integration of it into mainland China would severely hurt its ability to continue business. As the world's economy is entirely interdependent by now, this would hurt pretty much everyone. Although China has allowed business after the integration of HK, the restriction of personal freedom, the fleeing of most business with the exiting of Britain, and the fact that mainland China has YET to provide provincial election is clearly negative.

4) Although Taiwan has the same culture as mainland China (we are all still chinese), that does not assert China's claim. What about Singapore, or Malaysia ~ okay, I'm reaching a little bit. The point is, Taiwan has remained the political base of the opposition to communist China since the "people's revolution", up until that guy visited China (although for good intentions). At no point in time was Taiwan ever under communist China's control ~ so it would be too much like demanding something that was never yours to begin with.

*I have some more arguments ~ but it's getting kinda long, so I'll post them after I hear what you have to say. And I DO want to hear opposing opinions.*

*abc Canto, not from Taiwan btw*

[kewlpiggy88]

hey, too lazy to type all of what i feel here (APUS exam made fingers tired), so just go to the other taiwan thread in this forum.

i truly want taiwan to be an independent country but deep down i think china's economic power is just getting too strong and it may lead to reunification...::cringes::

if china changes its communist state of government then maybe i will consider changing my views.

[will_zhng]

No way man......Dont even think about taiwan being independent CUZ ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! two choices, taiwan either comes back to china, which is right seeing that is land once belonged to us or get blown to a hundred bits. Therefore, for the sake that Jay lives in Taiwan, its better just for taiwan to come back to china, no troubles involved.

[princessKitty]

i think taiwan should be independent, all little islands should be. they have their right to making their country independent, not anyone else, no-one should try to take what is not theirs.(george bush) :rasp:

[countess]

princesskitty: iam not sure if u know the history of Taiwan and how it came to be "a littlle island", but i do know that it was once part of China. About whether it should or should not go back to China, i am still unable to make up my mind, wuite frankly it doesn't really concern me at all. BUT, what iam woried about is the tension between the two governments, i really, truly hope that none of this will ever have to end up in a war...which is very possible these days. And facing the facts, the actual politicians may not be harmed but many people will be...and Taiwan being so small in size, will probably be the losing end of the battle.

umm...just expressing opinion, not sure if anyone agrees with me.

[princessKitty]

countess: i don't care about the history of taiwan, at the end of the day, taiwan should be an indenpendent country, without the influence of china or japan.
imagine someone taking your property just becasue they felt like it. you would lose all your belongings and possessions. likewise, if taiwan becomes part of china, they would lose thier culture that they have been pratising. they lose thier language, thier home.

[kasic_fantasy]

i used to think they should. but now...i think better not. :shifty:

one thing is that China will be able to provide certain stuffs for Taiwan. In Taiwan their politic issues are 'super interesting' and of coz, freaking messy. maybe China can help to settle them down a bit...

but the other thing is China is a communist country. if Taiwan were to go back to them, things might take longer time to settle down.... :worry:

sometimes i really hope they will just have war and fight it out. yea though Taiwan is a bit too small...but i guess USA will come and help. but sometimes, certain extend of violent can help to resolve things a bit :shifty:

i do agree with some of you guys that Taiwan may lose its culture and language..i dont want that to happened even though i'm not a Taiwanist... :worry:

[KendoTiger]

[QUOTE=countess]princesskitty: iam not sure if u know the history of Taiwan and how it came to be "a littlle island", but i do know that it was once part of China. QUOTE]

At no point in time was taiwan a part of the people's republic of china. I am not disputing that taiwan was part of china ~ only communist china.

*shrugs*

Personally, I would go to taiwan if there was a war, just to enroll.

[will_zhng]

Dont yous get it, the whole point of the civil war was to determine the party who governs China. The Communist Party won therefore they get to overthrow and take over the WHOLE of China. Taiwan is apart of China, therefore, the war isnt over until Taiwan is captured. I think I might go back to china too, just to enrol as well. See you on the battlefield Kendo Tiger! Most of all, it'll happen all in Taiwan, so I wont hold out on the explosives.

[princessKitty]

At no point in time was taiwan a part of the people's republic of china. I am not disputing that taiwan was part of china ~ only communist china.


i thought they were? thanks for the explanations. there, you see, china has no right to take over taiwan anyway. who started it in the first place?wanting to take over taiwan? :wacko:

[kay_kay]

i think that china should take over taiwan because it will help taiwan financially and it will boost up taiwan because china is pretty powerful atm.. i dont think taiwan should argue with china because chiina is the stronger party.. i also think that the western countries trying to get involved should stay out of it because they are pretty much stirring up the whole situation and using this chance to hit china.. and also.. you always see on tvbs news how taiwan is pretty much out of control.. they're parliament, the streets, etc.. and i agree with waht kasic_fantasy first wrote about how china might be able to take control of taiwan and help sort out its problems.. so yeah those are my thoughts atm.. btw.. just wondering becuase im not taiwanese or from mainland china.. but what are the differences between china's culture and taiwan's culture ? hehe thanks.

[princessKitty]

your thoughts are intersting. true, taiwan is getting out of hand but i think there is no need to take over taiwan to help sort out its problem.they can just help out without overtaking them. that's if they are genourous.
i'm not sure the difference in culture but i'm sure there is some difference. the manderin in taiwan is completly different to mainland china. taiwanese mahjorng is different to chinese marjorng. ummmm, thats all i know really.

your thoughts are intersting. true, taiwan is getting out of hand but i think there is no need to take over taiwan to help sort out its problem.they can just help out without overtaking them. that's if they are genourous.
i'm not sure the difference in culture but i'm sure there is some difference. the manderin in taiwan is completly different to mainland china. taiwanese mahjorng is different to chinese marjorng. ummmm, thats all i know really. sorry :worry:

[kay_kay]

hehe true.. but if china doesn't take over taiwan.. i doubt taiwan will use china for help and listen to them.. i think china should take over them because that's the only way taiwan will take china's help.. yeah i heard that the taiwan language was different from mainland china.. but never knew about the mahjorng.. hehe.. thanks =)

[princessKitty]

i think taiwan will take help anyhow. they will take help without the cost so i think they would rather get help from china without china overtaking them rather than getting help when china has taken over them. get it?
anyway, i play marjorng and i would like to know how they play it.

[kay_kay]

yeah i can see your point.. hehe but i guess its abit late.. because i doubt that china will help them unless they can take over taiwan.. and i dont think taiwan will accept any help from them even if they don't get invaded by china.. hmm complicating.. and the western countries are just making it worse.. and also.. i dont think china would help them unless there was something in it for china.. you know ? hehe =)

[princessKitty]

yeah i understand. peolple are greedy these days, they don't want to help without charging them. and i agree about western countries. some leaders(namely george bush)just want to get invovled with EVERYTHING. i mean, they should be an isolist.(it means staying out of international affairs and just being concerned about thier own affairs)

[kay_kay]

yeah so true.. everything's about power nowadays.. the powerful countries taking over the weaker countries.. but i don't understand why everyones making a big deal about taiwan and china when usa's doing practically the same in the middle east.. and the middle east aren't even american like taiwanesee being chinese.. you know ?

[princessKitty]

yeah i know!!i mean personally, i don'tlike to get invovle into politics but i thnk everyone is affected by the war in iraq. if china and taiwan goes ino war, i think everywhere would be affected. people on the streets would recognise if your chinese or taiwanese and start to take sides of take the mickey out of you or something.
but going back to america, the thing is, the american peope voted george bush to be president so they were FOR the war. heartless. :rasp:

[kay_kay]

yeah exactly.. people will start taking sides for china and taiwan.. and the war would definitely impact the world becuase they're are so many chinese people living in western countries.. and also.. it won't only be a war between taiwan and china.. western countries will definitly take sides too.. =.="

[princessKitty]

yep!!true. i live in london and there are many chinese people. if the war was on and i went to china town, taiwanese people would know i am chinese and start to, i don't know, do something. if i was in a shop serverd by a taiwanese person, they will probably charge me more jus because i am chinese. so i do hope that war wouldn't be on because like i said, it will affect people.

[KendoTiger]

i think that china should take over taiwan because it will help taiwan financially and it will boost up taiwan because china is pretty powerful atm.. i dont think taiwan should argue with china because chiina is the stronger party.. i also think that the western countries trying to get involved should stay out of it because they are pretty much stirring up the whole situation and using this chance to hit china.. and also.. you always see on tvbs news how taiwan is pretty much out of control.. they're parliament, the streets, etc.. and i agree with waht kasic_fantasy first wrote about how china might be able to take control of taiwan and help sort out its problems.. so yeah those are my thoughts atm.. btw.. just wondering becuase im not taiwanese or from mainland china.. but what are the differences between china's culture and taiwan's culture ? hehe thanks.

First of all, despite China's rapidly growing economy, Taiwan's economy is in much better shape ~ when you look at all aspects, including GDP, corruption, etc, Taiwan definitely does not need financial help from China.

As for China being the "stronger" party...um....I'm not really sure how you can say that...but, okay?

I do agree with you that most western countries should stay out of the conflict ~ the only thing I support is when Taiwan gets military support from the US, because a) they are military allies b) they could use the usa to buy military technology for their protection.

I'm not really sure what "problems" every one is talking about. I agree that there is some trouble with street protests, etc. But when you look at how China (prc) handles these types of disputes (IE murder, arrests, beatings) and the total censorship and destruction of any political opposition, makes Taiwan's "problems" so much better than China's (prc) "help".

[fajitapita]

I completely agree with Kendo Tiger.

I understand that China has been trying to recover from their "shame" and wants to gain power to relive their glory days, but it's gonna hafta do it w/o Taiwan (ifya doan get it, go read up on why China wants Taiwan back). As of yet, they have no legal claims on it, so their insistence of using military force is a reflection of their over-inflated ego. Everyone thought that China would remain quiet about their demands until the 2008 Olympics were over, but I guess they just couldn't keep their greedy selves quiet.

[will_zhng]

You Know what, personally I dont give a dame if taiwan comes back wif all their finacial crap and all that, just give us back the land we rightfully earned through war and where taiwan people go next is not my problem. The point is that they are occupying CHINESE PROPERTY without negotiating, that I consider as Theft, therefore, we deserve our land back, with or wif out the ppl in it.

[kay_kay]

countess: i don't care about the history of taiwan, at the end of the day, taiwan should be an indenpendent country, without the influence of china or japan.
imagine someone taking your property just becasue they felt like it. you would lose all your belongings and possessions. likewise, if taiwan becomes part of china, they would lose thier culture that they have been pratising. they lose thier language, thier home.

i dont think that taiwan will lose theyre culture and language etc if they become part of china because if you look at hong kong.. they are part of china now.. but there are still differences between culture and cantonese is the main dialect of hong kong still.. not mandarin.. if that makes sense..

[KendoTiger]

You Know what, personally I dont give a dame if taiwan comes back wif all their finacial crap and all that, just give us back the land we rightfully earned through war and where taiwan people go next is not my problem. The point is that they are occupying CHINESE PROPERTY without negotiating, that I consider as Theft, therefore, we deserve our land back, with or wif out the ppl in it.


I fail to see exactly HOW Taiwan is Chinese property. Maybe you could enlighten me. You don't "earn" anything through war, you only steal it, and then destory those who would claim otherwise. Why do you think the only "war criminals" are on the losing side? So I'm annoyed at your "rightfully earned" claim.

I don't see why you can't picture Taiwan as a "last bastion of independent chinese". They were never "conquered" by the prc, so I don't understand how you could tell them to "give us back the land".

[kewlpiggy88]

yep!!true. i live in london and there are many chinese people. if the war was on and i went to china town, taiwanese people would know i am chinese and start to, i don't know, do something. if i was in a shop serverd by a taiwanese person, they will probably charge me more jus because i am chinese. so i do hope that war wouldn't be on because like i said, it will affect people.

let's hope nothing like that happens if war is fought...although in china they're totally attacking the japanese there.

willzheng - they did not STEAL the land.

[princessKitty]

i dont think that taiwan will lose theyre culture and language etc if they become part of china because if you look at hong kong.. they are part of china now.. but there are still differences between culture and cantonese is the main dialect of hong kong still.. not mandarin.. if that makes sense..

it makes no sense at all.
is like if britian got taken over by america, the british will lose their land, home because the land and acres will probably be used to make new skyscrapers or something. that is what i mean by taiwan losing there culture. etc.

[KendoTiger]

Being kinda fair ~ well, sort of...

If taiwan's land was taken, it wouldn't be a loss of culture (well, to some extent, as culture does go in part with the landscape), it would be a loss of property/posession. It would also mean a loss of history.
*shrugs*

[CJay]

i think that china should take over taiwan because it will help taiwan financially and it will boost up taiwan because china is pretty powerful atm.. i dont think taiwan should argue with china because chiina is the stronger party.. i also think that the western countries trying to get involved should stay out of it because they are pretty much stirring up the whole situation and using this chance to hit china.. and also.. you always see on tvbs news how taiwan is pretty much out of control.. they're parliament, the streets, etc.. and i agree with waht kasic_fantasy first wrote about how china might be able to take control of taiwan and help sort out its problems.. so yeah those are my thoughts atm.. btw.. just wondering becuase im not taiwanese or from mainland china.. but what are the differences between china's culture and taiwan's culture ? hehe thanks.

I agree with KendoTiger that Taiwan's economy is in a better shape than China. Therefore, China can't really help out Taiwan in that way. If I'm not mistakened, you're saying that the weak should bow to the stronger people. Wouldn't that be a society of bullies? As for the political situation in Taiwan, I believe it originated from an argument which questioned if the ballots were counted correctly. That's just something similar to the butterfly ballot upheaval in the US. Are you saying that some powerful group should take over the US and fix the problem?

[KendoTiger]

I'm not sure if the culture question was ever answered ~ well, there's the chinese and taiwanese ppl thread that answers it, so I'll be brief.

I honestly don't think that culturally taiwan and china are that different. There are a few small differences, but not so much you couldn't call taiwanese people "chinese" ~ although a few of my taiwanese friends would get upset at being called chinese, because they consider "chinese" to refer to the prc. The dialect is slightly different. *shrugs* anything anyone wants to add to that?

[kewlpiggy88]

well, there is the aboriginal culture, taiwanese food, and taiwan uses trad'l chinese.

and how about singapore? the majority of the ppl are ethnic chinese but they're still an independent country.

[judes]

ah. i miss this discussion. let's start, shall we?

i think that china should take over taiwan because it will help taiwan financially and it will boost up taiwan because china is pretty powerful atm.. i dont think taiwan should argue with china because chiina is the stronger party.. i also think that the western countries trying to get involved should stay out of it because they are pretty much stirring up the whole situation and using this chance to hit china.. and also.. you always see on tvbs news how taiwan is pretty much out of control.. they're parliament, the streets, etc.. and i agree with waht kasic_fantasy first wrote about how china might be able to take control of taiwan and help sort out its problems.. so yeah those are my thoughts atm.. btw.. just wondering becuase im not taiwanese or from mainland china.. but what are the differences between china's culture and taiwan's culture ? hehe thanks.

just because there's a more powerful country out there doesn't mean you should kneel and get kicked in the face by the country. taiwanese people want to rule themselves. they want to have their own government, they want to make their own decisions. they do not want their lives to be dictated by a mainland government far away that has not done a stellar job of ruling in the first place in the past (want examples? i've already gone over that in the other thread).

do you know why you see in the news how taiwan is 'out of control'? because taiwanese people know they have the RIGHT to speak up about the government. they know that if they say something, the government will listen. they know that if they hold mass rallies, their voices will be heard. do you know why china is not "out of control"? it's because the communist government has bullied the people into submission. they are afraid of getting shot, of getting thrown into prison, and of terror on their families because they spoke up about the government. china is not the friendly big brother stepping in to help taiwan, to "straighten" them out. taiwan doesn't need any help from china to survive. and it's none of china's business how taiwan governs itself. we've done pretty damn well for ourselves, thank you very much.

to me, wanting china to take over taiwan is like wanting the us to take over canada. they all speak the same language right? they share the same culture right? so they should be one country right? please.

I honestly don't think that culturally taiwan and china are that different. There are a few small differences, but not so much you couldn't call taiwanese people "chinese" ~ although a few of my taiwanese friends would get upset at being called chinese, because they consider "chinese" to refer to the prc. The dialect is slightly different. *shrugs* anything anyone wants to add to that?

i've had this argument with a few people from china, and all they could come up with is the whole ethnicity argument again. we are all chinese and therefore we should be one big happy family, right?wrong. your race doesn't determine who you are. race is not culture.

taiwan's culture has influences from a lot of different places because of economic investments by the island outwards, and also investments inward. this stems from the economic change that the japanese brought in when they took over the island. so that's why taiwan has a lot of japanese influence. and since the government has close ties with the US, you see a lot of western influences too. a lot more than the mainland.

but all of that must mean nothing to you. i'll talk from personal experience. don't talk to me about how i'm making generalization and how what i'm saying is a load of crap. want to say something? tell me where you're from and tell me what you see to go against what i'm saying, and then we'll talk.

background information: i was born in taiwan, came here when i was 8. i've been in taiwanese preschool since i was 6, went through two years of the public education system. now i live in calgary, alberta. i'd like to think i know my history pretty well. i'm a taiwanese nationalist (obviously), and will only believe in reunification when the chinese government is a full democracy, and capitalist. a socialist economy is pushing it, but i realize that reunification is beneficial for taiwan not to get blown up. still, i wouldn't want to be ruled by a government that can only issue threats and win allies by shows of military might.

i'll talk about some differences that i can see clearly when i talk to mainlanders and taiwanese.

1) way of dress. you may say this is unrelated to culture, but i think it is. if you bring me one mainland person and one taiwanese person who just came straight from china/taiwan and they have lived in those countries their entire lives, then i can tell you which one is from taiwan and which one is from china with about 90% accuracy just by the way they dress. once they open their mouth, i can tell you with 99.9% accuracy about where they're from. taiwanese girls dress "cute", this is the japanese influence. they dress in bright colors with lots of ruffles, and they like to wear lots of patterns. mainland girls dress a bit differently, not as "cute", i guess you can say. more serious. taiwan boys also see a lot of japanese/korean influence in style of dress, and lately there's been a lot of hip hop/american influence too. tight jeans and bright colored t-shirts. haircuts are also a lot different than mainlanders. of course there's also the way they talk, taiwanese girls talk in this cutesy higher voice than the mainland girls. mainland girls are also more fierce and more take charge. taiwanese boys tend to slur their words and mumble and not look at you in the eyes and shuffle around a lot.

2) family: due to the one child policy of the chinese government, the families from china are very child centered. they spoil and put all of their attention on that one child. when you see the products of that, you can tell very obviously which one is taiwanese and which one is a mainlander. even the people from my church see it too. mainland women are more ambitious, they think of themselves as completely equal with men, and they want to compete and achieve the best. taiwanese women are more traditional, they're willing to defer to men. you can still see a lot of the "big men mentality" in taiwanese men. when i look at the taiwanese families around me, i can see that the men are the ones who make the decisions, but from the mainland families i know, the mother's decisions has fairly heavy weight, sometimes even more than the father.

3) school system: when you put mainlanders and taiwanese children into an outside educational system, such as the western school system, you can see differences between the two. mainlanders tend to demand more from their teachers, they're more vocal about what they're learning, and they like to tell the teacher when something is wrong. taiwanese kids slack off more. they sit in the corner and do their thing and get out. i'm not saying that one is better than the other, i'm just saying that the forms of education that they're used to are different, and how they go about in the classroom are different. i've spent some time in the taiwanese education system, so i can see that the teachers stress a lot about the old ideals. respect your teachers, don't talk back, be quiet, etc. mainlanders are louder in general, actually, now that i think about it. taiwanese kids can get pretty loud when they're in a group, but in school, the loud groups of people are the mainland kids when they walk down the hallway.

4) slang, speech. the way they talk is also important. if you listen carefully to taiwanese and to the similar dialect on the mainland, you'll still see differences between the two. taiwanese people's slang is a lot different from the mainland. what they emphasize when they talk is different too. if you think that mandarin on mainland is the same as mandarin on taiwan, you're mistaken. it's not only in the way they pronounce things, but also in the word usage, the way they put words together, the way their mind thinks when they speak.

5) music. not much needs to be said here. turn on mtv taiwan and mtv china. see if you can guess which one's a mainland artist and which one's a taiwanese artist.

i bet that if you ask people from hong kong where they're from, they'll most likely say "hong kong" instead of "china". and if you ask what type of chinese they are, they will say "cantonese" instead of "mainlander" or "chinese". there's a difference between taiwan and hong kong. hong kong was "leased" (if you can call spoils of war and contracts as a lease, but bear with me here) and the return was prepared and inevitable. the situation with china/taiwan is more complicated.

and yes, other stuff, like food, which was mentioned before. the aboriginal culture. how the religion predominant in taiwan is buddhism, along with ancestral worship. i think most mainlanders are atheist. in taiwan you see a lot of temples and household shrines.

mm. that was fun.

[ying64]

TW should stay independant, always. Poor HK now taken back >.< If TW goes back as part of China, there goes their freedom (to speak out, etc.) too.

[kewlpiggy88]

hey judes, another example is South Korea and North Korea. same exact people in terms of like...ethnicity but the two countries are completely different. i know some ppl in this forum said that South Korea wants to get back together with North Korea into one big Korea (I don't know, i haven't read up on korean history), but come on...there's no way that's going to happen the way the things are in each country right now.

[KendoTiger]

ah. i miss this discussion. let's start, shall we?



just because there's a more powerful country out there doesn't mean you should kneel and get kicked in the face by the country. taiwanese people want to rule themselves. they want to have their own government, they want to make their own decisions. they do not want their lives to be dictated by a mainland government far away that has not done a stellar job of ruling in the first place in the past (want examples? i've already gone over that in the other thread).

do you know why you see in the news how taiwan is 'out of control'? because taiwanese people know they have the RIGHT to speak up about the government. they know that if they say something, the government will listen. they know that if they hold mass rallies, their voices will be heard. do you know why china is not "out of control"? it's because the communist government has bullied the people into submission. they are afraid of getting shot, of getting thrown into prison, and of terror on their families because they spoke up about the government. china is not the friendly big brother stepping in to help taiwan, to "straighten" them out. taiwan doesn't need any help from china to survive. and it's none of china's business how taiwan governs itself. we've done pretty damn well for ourselves, thank you very much.

to me, wanting china to take over taiwan is like wanting the us to take over canada. they all speak the same language right? they share the same culture right? so they should be one country right? please.



i've had this argument with a few people from china, and all they could come up with is the whole ethnicity argument again. we are all chinese and therefore we should be one big happy family, right?wrong. your race doesn't determine who you are. race is not culture.

taiwan's culture has influences from a lot of different places because of economic investments by the island outwards, and also investments inward. this stems from the economic change that the japanese brought in when they took over the island. so that's why taiwan has a lot of japanese influence. and since the government has close ties with the US, you see a lot of western influences too. a lot more than the mainland.

but all of that must mean nothing to you. i'll talk from personal experience. don't talk to me about how i'm making generalization and how what i'm saying is a load of crap. want to say something? tell me where you're from and tell me what you see to go against what i'm saying, and then we'll talk.

background information: i was born in taiwan, came here when i was 8. i've been in taiwanese preschool since i was 6, went through two years of the public education system. now i live in calgary, alberta. i'd like to think i know my history pretty well. i'm a taiwanese nationalist (obviously), and will only believe in reunification when the chinese government is a full democracy, and capitalist. a socialist economy is pushing it, but i realize that reunification is beneficial for taiwan not to get blown up. still, i wouldn't want to be ruled by a government that can only issue threats and win allies by shows of military might.

i'll talk about some differences that i can see clearly when i talk to mainlanders and taiwanese.

1) way of dress. you may say this is unrelated to culture, but i think it is. if you bring me one mainland person and one taiwanese person who just came straight from china/taiwan and they have lived in those countries their entire lives, then i can tell you which one is from taiwan and which one is from china with about 90% accuracy just by the way they dress. once they open their mouth, i can tell you with 99.9% accuracy about where they're from. taiwanese girls dress "cute", this is the japanese influence. they dress in bright colors with lots of ruffles, and they like to wear lots of patterns. mainland girls dress a bit differently, not as "cute", i guess you can say. more serious. taiwan boys also see a lot of japanese/korean influence in style of dress, and lately there's been a lot of hip hop/american influence too. tight jeans and bright colored t-shirts. haircuts are also a lot different than mainlanders. of course there's also the way they talk, taiwanese girls talk in this cutesy higher voice than the mainland girls. mainland girls are also more fierce and more take charge. taiwanese boys tend to slur their words and mumble and not look at you in the eyes and shuffle around a lot.

2) family: due to the one child policy of the chinese government, the families from china are very child centered. they spoil and put all of their attention on that one child. when you see the products of that, you can tell very obviously which one is taiwanese and which one is a mainlander. even the people from my church see it too. mainland women are more ambitious, they think of themselves as completely equal with men, and they want to compete and achieve the best. taiwanese women are more traditional, they're willing to defer to men. you can still see a lot of the "big men mentality" in taiwanese men. when i look at the taiwanese families around me, i can see that the men are the ones who make the decisions, but from the mainland families i know, the mother's decisions has fairly heavy weight, sometimes even more than the father.

3) school system: when you put mainlanders and taiwanese children into an outside educational system, such as the western school system, you can see differences between the two. mainlanders tend to demand more from their teachers, they're more vocal about what they're learning, and they like to tell the teacher when something is wrong. taiwanese kids slack off more. they sit in the corner and do their thing and get out. i'm not saying that one is better than the other, i'm just saying that the forms of education that they're used to are different, and how they go about in the classroom are different. i've spent some time in the taiwanese education system, so i can see that the teachers stress a lot about the old ideals. respect your teachers, don't talk back, be quiet, etc. mainlanders are louder in general, actually, now that i think about it. taiwanese kids can get pretty loud when they're in a group, but in school, the loud groups of people are the mainland kids when they walk down the hallway.

4) slang, speech. the way they talk is also important. if you listen carefully to taiwanese and to the similar dialect on the mainland, you'll still see differences between the two. taiwanese people's slang is a lot different from the mainland. what they emphasize when they talk is different too. if you think that mandarin on mainland is the same as mandarin on taiwan, you're mistaken. it's not only in the way they pronounce things, but also in the word usage, the way they put words together, the way their mind thinks when they speak.

5) music. not much needs to be said here. turn on mtv taiwan and mtv china. see if you can guess which one's a mainland artist and which one's a taiwanese artist.

i bet that if you ask people from hong kong where they're from, they'll most likely say "hong kong" instead of "china". and if you ask what type of chinese they are, they will say "cantonese" instead of "mainlander" or "chinese". there's a difference between taiwan and hong kong. hong kong was "leased" (if you can call spoils of war and contracts as a lease, but bear with me here) and the return was prepared and inevitable. the situation with china/taiwan is more complicated.

and yes, other stuff, like food, which was mentioned before. the aboriginal culture. how the religion predominant in taiwan is buddhism, along with ancestral worship. i think most mainlanders are atheist. in taiwan you see a lot of temples and household shrines.

mm. that was fun.

Judes, I'm quoting your post because I'm too lazy to go back to it.

Because you asked:
Cantonese
Born In Los Angelos - 1st generation American
Was Sent to Hong Kong and Taiwan for 6 years to "gain a cultural sense"
90% of my friends are asian (Mainland 40, Taiwan 40, Korean/Viet 10), many of them doing study abroads ~ similar to mine ~ in America or are still overseas.

This is where I'm getting my own experiences from.

Honestly, you should really look back and read the whole argument, rather than flaming me for one thing you took out of context.

To your points:
1) I agree with what you say about cultural influences from Korea and Japan. Although this is also due to economic status and political influences. If you really took "anyone" off the streets of China, you'd probably get a poor peasent, or migrant worker. Just based on probability and population demographic. I still think that your personality analysis is off. Most of the middle/upperclass mainland girls I know fit your definition of a "taiwanese girl", as well as the slightly older underclass. As for your description of taiwanese guys ~ I have never seen that unless they were getting yelled at publically.

2) If you have only one child, it will naturally look like you are spoiling him/her, just because you don't have to spread around your money on more children. This is pretty obvious ~ you can't say they "spoil" one child unless you look at comparable family sizes. And don't try to rationalize with "its mainland culture to only provide for the first born" ~ although it is true to some degree, your quote of "taiwanese women tend to be more traditional" would mean that this isn't the reason for any difference between the two. As for the whole competition thing...I still don't know where you're getting this from.

4)Way their mind thinks? Yeah...kind of reaching for it. I also already agreed that there were differences with the dialect.

3)In my western school, you have the mainland minority usually surrounded by a taiwanese majority ~ our school is 70% asian/pacific islander. While they are huddled in a quiet group, the surrounding taiwanese usually loudly poke fun at them in chinese, or yell at the teacher to hurry up with the class. As for in the country itself, I've found mainland schools like the taiwan schools you refer to. It really just depends on where you go.

5) Dialect, target audience, restrictions, wealth, etc. I can see culture working in here ~ but its nothing I haven't already covered.

As for your whole "mainland is atheist"...I REALLY want to know where you're getting that from. None of the people I know from the mainland are atheist, its just that religion is closely monitered by the prc because they don't want "anti-government" sentiment from them.

I might have to stress that this is not the "why is taiwanese different from chinese mainlanders" thread ~ we already have that. Sigh...then again, the two are more than a little related...

[edit because i didn't want to lose my work/just defend myself]

The point I was trying to make, was not that Taiwanese are Chinese. I meant that out of every single culture in the world, the most related to Taiwan is that of mainland China. I also asked if there was anyone who could add to the point of how Taiwan is different from mainland China.

To make a VERY clear point, which I think you missed, is that I am PRO-Taiwan Independence. I did not try to use the "same ethnicity - same country" argument.

[kewlpiggy88]

about the independent mainland women compared to trad'l taiwanese women, i think it's true because my mom was at a potluck and they were ALL talking about it. with the cultural revolution, they taught the men to respect their wives and that's why mainland women are more independent nowadays. in taiwan, they still have the dominant paternal figure that is the "ruler of the household".

[judes]

Because you asked:
Cantonese
Born In Los Angelos - 1st generation American
Was Sent to Hong Kong and Taiwan for 6 years to "gain a cultural sense"
90% of my friends are asian (Mainland 40, Taiwan 40, Korean/Viet 10), many of them doing study abroads ~ similar to mine ~ in America or are still overseas.

This is where I'm getting my own experiences from.

Honestly, you should really look back and read the whole argument, rather than flaming me for one thing you took out of context.

To your points:
1) I agree with what you say about cultural influences from Korea and Japan. Although this is also due to economic status and political influences. If you really took "anyone" off the streets of China, you'd probably get a poor peasent, or migrant worker. Just based on probability and population demographic. I still think that your personality analysis is off. Most of the middle/upperclass mainland girls I know fit your definition of a "taiwanese girl", as well as the slightly older underclass. As for your description of taiwanese guys ~ I have never seen that unless they were getting yelled at publically.

2) If you have only one child, it will naturally look like you are spoiling him/her, just because you don't have to spread around your money on more children. This is pretty obvious ~ you can't say they "spoil" one child unless you look at comparable family sizes. And don't try to rationalize with "its mainland culture to only provide for the first born" ~ although it is true to some degree, your quote of "taiwanese women tend to be more traditional" would mean that this isn't the reason for any difference between the two. As for the whole competition thing...I still don't know where you're getting this from.

4)Way their mind thinks? Yeah...kind of reaching for it. I also already agreed that there were differences with the dialect.

3)In my western school, you have the mainland minority usually surrounded by a taiwanese majority ~ our school is 70% asian/pacific islander. While they are huddled in a quiet group, the surrounding taiwanese usually loudly poke fun at them in chinese, or yell at the teacher to hurry up with the class. As for in the country itself, I've found mainland schools like the taiwan schools you refer to. It really just depends on where you go.

5) Dialect, target audience, restrictions, wealth, etc. I can see culture working in here ~ but its nothing I haven't already covered.

As for your whole "mainland is atheist"...I REALLY want to know where you're getting that from. None of the people I know from the mainland are atheist, its just that religion is closely monitered by the prc because they don't want "anti-government" sentiment from them.

I don't need to flame you, dear. I am only stating my own opinions about the matter. That's why I said it's from my own experience and my own beliefs, and I did state I am extremely biased about this situation. But it doesn't stop me from getting my point across. Don't take it as an attack directly against you, I'm responding to your post about whether the cultural question was answered. You seem to think it wasn't addressed properly in that thread, so I'm addressing it to you and to everybody who wants to know. It's an internet forum! Don't take it personally.

I'm curious. Who did you live with in Taiwan and Hong Kong? What political spectrum are they from? What generation Cantonese and Taiwanese are they?

1) Of course, I'm talking about the overall demographic. Specific cases, there are bound to be deviations from the norm. But you're saying that if you grab someone from the mainland, you'll usually get a peasant. Which is a higher probability than if you grab someone from Taiwan. So you get your cultural difference there. Taiwan's economy depended a lot on manufacturing, therefore the economic base that influences culture is also different.

And I am definitely not saying one is better than the other. I am saying that mainland girls I've met are definitely more hard working (bad grammar, sigh) than Taiwanese girls, that's a bonus, isn't it? This ties into the family point, about how they expect a lot for themselves, therefore they strive to achieve more. All of the mainland girls I've met, none of them dress like Taiwanese girls. They also don't act like Taiwanese girls. Ah, the Taiwanese guys...my experience with them, that's all.

2) I'm not using the term spoiled as a bad sense here. Only that the parents lavish attention on their one child, and therefore, most of the children grow up to expect a lot more than people who grow up in larger families. If this was present in only a smaller population of the country, then it's not important, but if it's something the government implements, then it has an impact on the way society is. This is culturally significant because of the family unit that is present in Taiwan vs in China. Family is an important part of culture, wouldn't you agree? The way the Taiwanese family raise their children is different from the way the mainland family raise their children, I think that's extremely significant. I'm not sure about mainland education, but Taiwanese children are taught from a young age to study and to cram and to prepare for the university entry exams and to go the best universities. They developed different learning skills in school than people who come under mainland education, not better or worse learning skills, just learning skills designed for a different path. That's also another cultural difference.

3) The city I live in used to have a significant Cantonese population. Then it was Taiwanese for a while, now it's a constant stream of mainlanders. Shows in my school too. The year I came in, the most ethnic group are the brown skinned kids, mostly Indians. Now Gr 10 is filled with mainlanders. Taiwanese kids are EXTREMELY cliquey, I would agree 100%. Stuff I said about education above too.

Also have to remember that the people I associate with at school and you associate with at school are mainlanders and Taiwanese who have enough money to move out of the country. That makes them a narrower percentage than most mainlanders or Taiwanese. That's why I mentioned these things regarding education back home. Some mainland schools are like those Taiwanese schools perhaps, but almost ALL taiwanese schools are like the ones I've mentioned because the school system is on a small island, so it's easier to place everybody on the same stream. So overall, Taiwanese education is still different from the education that mainlanders receive.

4) Of course, way their mind thinks. You speak Chinese, right? Sometimes, certain words don't sound right in English. There are certain ideas I cannot convey through one language or the other. The way language is processed is through cultural experience. I can say certain things in Taiwanese that I have no idea how to say in Mandarin. There are certain expressions in Taiwan slang that I've said to mainland kids and had them go huh? This is culture. Just like British slang for cigarettes is "fag", we would go "huh?" but the British say it all the time because it means something entirely different. You agreed? Good for you, I agree too. Let's shake hands. Once again, it's not a direct personal attack against you, I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I don't have anything against people who don't believe in Taiwanese independence. I'm just vocal about what I believe in.

There's also the size difference of the countries, of course. Information travels differently in mainland than in Taiwan. Anybody who thinks that nothing will change if Taiwan is under Chinese rule is extremely naive. The media will not have the same freedom of broadcasting as before. Most mainlanders I've met when I ask them about their feelings about politics in China shrug, because they're used to it. But you can see from the past elections that Taiwanese people speak out about issues that concern them, maybe to an outsider's perspective it seems like the country is under chaos, but like I stated in the other thread: At least it's the Taiwanese ruling, at least it's the Taiwanese screwing the country over, instead of an indifferent mainland government.

wouldn't you agree that the government limiting religion is also significant to the culture in a society though? the government is a very important part in the implementation and the development of culture. the cultural revolution and banning of religion in the....60's and 70's? caused a lot of young people to become atheists. a large number of the population also remained atheist. it's one of the mainstreams of "belief" if you can call it that in china. i definitely agree that religion plays an important part in the lives of the people, and have made their way deeply into the culture, but the religious mindset of taiwan versus china is different, that was all i'm stating.

I think I would know the difference between the two threads. Hanzo and I had a gigantic debate there a few months ago. This is about Taiwanese independence, and this is why I'm saying Taiwanese should be independent!

[kay_kay]

hehe this is a good thread.. makes me think.. well i am lost now.. don't know which side to go on anymore because people are bringing up good points for taiwan not going independent.. i realise the flaws in my arguement.. and thanks for telling me differences between cultures.. as i didnt know much about it cos im not really from mainland china or taiwan.. >> hongkong..

[Chun Li]

I would to agree with Judes, here.

I've lived in Mainland China for 2+ years now and the things I've seen here point to ONLY separation between the two "COUNTRIES". As much as China is forcing Taiwan to be a part of them (Returning my letters to Taiwan unless I write, "CHINA TAIWAN" on it) is only pushing Taiwan away further.

I think the main reason for this separation is, like everyone says, the difference in culture. Taiwan, being on their own for the past 60+ years, will only grow even farther. There is nothing that China can do to bridge the culture gap. It's like two kids of the same parent. One never lived at home and will continue to do things their own way.

Now, I doubt that Taiwan will ever get their status as a country per say, but I think they will just remain their status quo. Yes, we are all Chinese. NO, we are not one country. No, we are not our own country. Yes, we are independent.

[kasic_fantasy]

hey i agree with judes too...after reading all the post..

if you were to say being Chinese makes all Chinese ONE country, then what about the chinese in singapore? in malaysia? in america?...look race and nationality is 2 big damn big thing...

in the first place when i knew bout this conflict, i was totally 2 thumbs up for Taiwan. coz i feel that every country, every culture should have their own rights. come on if singapore can break free from british rules and malaysia, THEN WHY THE BLOODY HELL CANT TAIWAN BREAK FREE FROM CHINA?

this issue has went on for a very long time. i then begin to think that maybe China taking over Taiwan may not be that bad...

but now, i'm totally all hands up for Taiwan. come on lets put ourselves in the Taiwanese shoes...if you were them, freedom being threathen, facing the danger of lost of culture, being a communist country...etc. think what if you were them?...

KendoTiger come on this is a current issues and debate. everyone has their own set of thinkings and certain things needs to be judge with human rights and feelings. i know your totally on for China...but think a bit for Taiwan yea?...

and i'm totally sure that judes is not attacking you. we are all chinese...all of one race, but just difference in nationality.

[Irina]

Wooo,so interesting reading ur posts!
I love Taiwan,and think that their people must be free,but it is chinese territory and people are chinese so maybe will be better to reunited them.

[KendoTiger]

First: "Totally on for China".... -o-
Third Time I've Had To Repeat Myself: To make a VERY clear point, which I think you missed, is that I am PRO-Taiwan Independence. I did not try to use the "same ethnicity - same country" argument.

Anyways:
Sorry Judes, for most of your argument, I agree with most parts of it. From what you wrote immediately after my quote, I was under the impression you were angry at me for my hasty generalization. So sorry again ~

Point wise:
1) There is a relationship between a country's economy and their culture ~ wealth impact, etc ~ but I still think you're stretching it a little bit. *shrugs* I guess I'm seeing it as more of a demographic than as a point of culture. Then again, it would make sense that this would lead to more ease of movement culturally ~ they have the wealth, etc to afford more changes...

2) I can understand your impressions, and I don't think they are far enough off to be unreasonable. Education-wise, I agree with you. Although this isn't to say that mainland chinese push their children to maintain high standards in school, I do believe that there is less assurance of a "security net" if you don't excel in school. Basically, I believe it relates to the difference from a more competitive capitalistic society.

When you talk about mainland girls against taiwanese girls. Hmm. I'll have to think about that one a little more.

4) Yes, I know what you mean. I was just confused at your wording.

3) For some reason, I keep missing the third argument...

Anyways ~ I agree with what you're saying about how most chinese and taiwanese in western schools only represent a small fraction of their representative countries. *shrugs* Having been from a family that lost everything due to communism ~ I was amazed that my parent's even sent me back to the prc for a week ~ and had to flee to HK, then through Britain to the US, I can't agree that ONLY the richer taiwanese/chinese are represented in American schools (US school in general).

For the atheist thing, I kind of see your point ~ but it deals more with the presence of other religions, rather than being Buddhist or Atheist. As for the banning of religion ~ it was everything banned except for Han Buddhist, which accounts for the majority of mainland chinese. *shrugs*

The aftercomment was not refering to you, just stating in general because some earlier comments did not see the difference between the two threads.

Because you asked:
In Taiwan, I stayed with the Shyu family ~ my family is friends with their branch family in America. They are 3rd generation Taiwanese nationalist, although they are mixed with 8th+ generation Taipei (sp?) who were there before the rise of the prc.
In China, I stayed with the main branch of my family ~ since I am part of the branch family that fled the prc. Yeah ~ it was kind of annoying that they tried to get me to sponser some of them into the US...anyways, that's another story.

I was wondering everyone's thoughts about the visit by Nationalist President Lien Chan. Honestly, I think it was stupid of him to try and undercut the momentum of President Chen Shui-Bian, as it plays Taiwan as an extremely divided and therefore easily retakable country. I still believe in the independence of speech that Taiwan holds, but I really think that Lien Chan's actions ~ despite his intentions of calming cross-staight tension ~ portrayed Chen as a "lame-duck"* president.

*has no real political power, control over the country's government

[judes]

i think for a discussion like this you have to make generalizations, so i understand what you're saying. and i was responding to the person i quoted before you and not to you directly and trying to bash you repeatedly or anything. i do get a little harsh when i talk about taiwanese independence though, sorry :P

1) i think economics and social issues are directly related to each other. i'm going to use an extreme example such as hitler here, where the rise to power of the nazis was predominantly influenced by the massive inflation and war debt after WWI, the resentment at the treaty of versailles and also societal issues such as conservatism and racism. the policies that hitler implemented to gain support in order to secure his rule have to be based on recognized economic tactics in order to have the support of the big business (predominant conservatism, due to capitalist beliefs, but their social beliefs are also linked with conservative thought) in weimar germany as well. so economics and societal beliefs put the government into power. and that's what i think influences the china/taiwan issue. the boom in taiwanese economy was linked with the japanese rule, and the reasons of taiwan's success and decline in their economy is different from china's current rise in economic power. economics influences the way of thinking of the people (contentment in their standard of living, the money they are making, the global market) and therefore affects what kind of people they want in power and also what kind of issues comes up. once again size of china vs size of taiwan is important in this as well. do i make more sense now? i'm only trying to explain my points further, so that people can understand what i'm getting at, because sometimes i don't make sense. but then you all have to tell me, ok? heh.

another thought to consider: china's development of communist thought changes the political spectrum and also social beliefs (i.e. cultural revolution) in the country, while taiwan, which did not experience the communist idealogical change since it was under japanese rule at the time, was then ruled by the nationalist government which was basically a totalitarian government. this is another factor of cultural importance that shows why taiwan is different from china.

2) exactly. I'm not sure about the situation in mainland China about getting jobs, but there is I think an...I won't even hazard a guess at the percentage, but it's very very high, of Taiwanese students entering university. So it's a highly educated population, but with a very low number of jobs to go around. While China's job market growth is increasing, perhaps it's not equal with its population growth, but the Taiwanese job market is growing more and more limited.

I think my point about mainland girls vs taiwanese girls definitely do not work on a case by case basis, but the overal trend is there from what I can see. Like someone pointed out before, the cultural revolution and equality between men and women really changed the mindset of the next generation. This is something that was not present in Taiwanese culture, so you'll see that Taiwanese gender roles are closer to the Japanese culture than to the mainland, except now it's deviating again I think to the western culture, but I could be wrong.

Religion - I thought they banned everything? From my knowledge, they shut down all of the Buddhist temples and didn't allow them to open until the Freedom of Religion law (or whatever it's called) was "passed" in the 70's or somewhere around there (although why they attempt to pretend to "pass" laws like the politicians have any say in discussing the right and wrong of a bill is beyond me). But there is a very good chance that I am wrong, so I'll do some research on that.

Your family lost everything to communism? I'm sorry. Must be why you're pro-Taiwan, eh? My family background isn't that extreme, but my family has lived in Taiwan for several generations...I believe it's more than seven. My grandparents were born during the Japanese rule and the subsequent Nationalist government and the 228 incident, so I grew up in an environment that isn't particularily friendly towards anything mainland or anything Japanese.

I've never been to Hong Kong, so what did you think of the difference between Taiwan and China? Did you see anything difference? (besides the way they speak, of course). Which one would you prefer to live in if you had to choose between the two?

And this is a question for everybody: For those who are still skeptical about cultural differences, or for those who agree with my points, if you were put into a room with two people: one person who was from the mainland, one person who was from Taiwan, same age, same gender...do you think you would be able to tell them apart? or maybe think of some new immigrants that you've met or people that you've associated with in your visits to either countries. If you're able to tell them apart by their appearance, then half of this discussion about cultural differences is proven right then and there.

And to your question, KendoTiger. I detest the Nationalist party leader and I think he's a big idiot and I hope he stays in China forever because he belongs there. He has lost two elections already and I think he should step aside for someone who is more capable of being the leader of a national party than the inept hypocrite he is. His actions cause the entire country to be divided, and there's no chance of Taiwan standing against China if even the two main parties are going to bicker because one of the leaders is an ass. But you've said it pretty well.

[kasic_fantasy]

And this is a question for everybody: For those who are still skeptical about cultural differences, or for those who agree with my points, if you were put into a room with two people: one person who was from the mainland, one person who was from Taiwan, same age, same gender...do you think you would be able to tell them apart? or maybe think of some new immigrants that you've met or people that you've associated with in your visits to either countries. If you're able to tell them apart by their appearance, then half of this discussion about cultural differences is proven right then and there.

hmm i think should be able to :hmm: from the way they talk, the way they both behaves...its damn easy actually. mostly their sense of fashion will tell it all..

[KendoTiger]

Hmm ~

What you say about the trend of mainland and taiwanese women might be there, I'll do some more research into it. When I think about your first point, about the economics, I actual realized a more relavent point ~ that of migrant workers. Based on the positioning of the production centers in the mainland, many families must "separate" as migrant workers to support the family, and is shown throughout the young workforce typically employed at these factories. Unlike in Taiwan, this stresses the family structure, as parents and married couples must live far distances for long peroids of time. This not only increases the likelihood of weak family bonds, but also the perception of individualism ~ mainly shown by the youth taking a more selfish view of personal obligations.

I believe the freedom of religion law only opened the mainland to subsets of buddhism. *shrugs*, I could also be wrong ~ I'll do research into it too. It could be during that time period in which the prc tried to "revitalize" the cultural traditions they previously tried to limit ~ shaolin kung-fu comes to mind... but anyways ~

I really didn't spend much time in Hong Kong, but it was definitely more westernized ~ owing to the British influence, I'm sure. I believe that the Hong Kong police are still localized, and not owned by the prc ~ strong term ~ so despite beijing elections, you have more freedom to speak your mind. Honestly though, I would prefer to live in Taiwan, I just feel more comfortable there. 'Sides ~ Jay's there ;).



.

[will_zhng]

I just hope one day Chinese economy absolutly tramples over taiwan economy. And I know this will happen cuz its just been soaring lately. What is this talk about taking rights away from HK and stuff? Those cunts there have been protesting like made, and the Chinese givernment hasnt done shit. Besides, that shooting incident in Beijin in 1989 was the only solution. The protesters were blocking all the main roads, public transport, and causing loads of vandalising and looting. I think shooting them would of been the only way to end it.

[kewlpiggy88]

I Besides, that shooting incident in Beijin in 1989 was the only solution. The protesters were blocking all the main roads, public transport, and causing loads of vandalising and looting. I think shooting them would of been the only way to end it.

i don't know about you, but i'm really glad to have grown up in a democratic country. what you're describing there is the Tiananmen Square incident, right? those "democracy demonstrators" were trying to get the government to see that they were unHAPPY with communism, that they were unhappy of feeling oppressed so they decided to speak out. and then the chinese government was afraid of this democratic spirit spreading to other people so they quickly put it out and lied to the rest of the country of what really happened.

after reading your post i guess you WANT taiwan to be independent because you want china's economy to be better than taiwan...so if they were one country, one couldn't be better than the other. everyone has their reasons for wanting tw to be independent...

[KendoTiger]

Lmfao ~ so you were on our side all along! :D

I find it hilarious that in those eastern european countries ~ which used to be part of the soviet bloc ~ chose to massacre all of the demonstrators, rather than turn to a more democratic elected official.

Exactly, they've been protesting, and the prc won't listen to them at all. Why do you think the students staged a massive political demonstration?

Turns out that on the tiananmen square issue ~ the prc have arrested a singaporean newspaper journalist because he was going to pick up "secret" information - regarding the interrogation of a communist leader who was ousted for opposing the massacre.

[will_zhng]

Well, its a pretty good government for all i know. You see all you guys are just taking the opinion presented by all the white guys. Besides, its rather unpatriotic to be causing uprising against your own government, so yeah, those protesters deserved it.

[hisashiluv14]

Well, its a pretty good government for all i know. You see all you guys are just taking the opinion presented by all the white guys. Besides, its rather unpatriotic to be causing uprising against your own government, so yeah, those protesters deserved it.

Maybe the 'white guys' have a point. What if your own government is a useless piece of shit? What if you were living in Lenisist Russia? Or even during pre-Revolution France?

I find your opinion extremely disagreeable. They 'deserved' to be shot at for holding a peaceful demonstration?

I think maybe you'd be happier living in China.

[KendoTiger]

So, if we aren't communists, and hate anyone who doesn't believe exactly as we do, we're white?

*looks in the mirror*

..I don't think so.

For all you know? How long, if at all, have you lived in China?

There is a difference from protesting against a form of government, and against the country. They weren't protesting China, they were protesting the unfair treatment and restrictions of freedoms by the prc.

[judes]

Well, its a pretty good government for all i know. You see all you guys are just taking the opinion presented by all the white guys. Besides, its rather unpatriotic to be causing uprising against your own government, so yeah, those protesters deserved it.

i wanted so very much to stay quiet since other people have already said enough.

so a government who murders its citizens, starves the inhabitants of its country, and spends money that could...oh i don't know...feed its children, build better infrastructure, strengthen the economy of the nation on the chinese grand prix and sending some dude out to space is actually a lovely and happy place to live in and great government?

thank you for generalizing and summing up all of the haters of the chinese government in three simple words. "THE WHITE GUYS". they're out to get us.

i have the right to protest bad government.
the government has no right to infringe upon my rights of free speech.
i love my country, i would die for my country, but i would never let the leaders of the country decide what my opinions are.
patriotism is different from blind ignorance of certain wrongs committed by both bad and good governments.

killing someone who doesn't agree with you is never justified.
i sure as hell don't agree with you but i'm not going to hold a gun up to your head and blow your brain out. nobody deserves that kind of treatment.

[KendoTiger]

Well, I thought it was kinda cool how they sent that dude into space...just because it marked the third country that was able to do that.

[judes]

but you gotta get your priorities straight here.

human lives....or impressing your neighbors...human lives...or impressing other countries...
hmmm. let me consider this for a little while.

[KendoTiger]

-_-

I merely meant that it was an important technological stride for China. I'm not saying that more money shouldn't be spent to modernize the rural parts of china. Honestly, the situation isn't as bad as like in North Korea ~ it's more or a sizable wealth gap between social classes.

Also, I don't belive that the space mission dominated the chinese economy ~ most of the money went to private kick-backs for prc officials.

[judes]

it would be a great technological stride for anybody. but there's an appropriate time for technological advancement, and an appropriate time to get your act together to fix problems in the country.

i think the situation is quite bad in comparison to north korea if you count by number of individuals and percentage of the population. the wealth is very highly concentrated in certain classes. i believe that north korea is in a pretty terrible state right now too, except there's SO MUCH that could be done in china and so much that isn't being done. although i don't come off as someone who is supportive of the mainland, but i do feel sorry for all of the people in china who have low standards of life and the government isn't doing anything about it when it could.

i never said it dominated the chinese economy by itself. i only used it as an example of extreme waste. communism breeds waste and inefficiency and corruption.

[KendoTiger]

Hmm, that's true.

But I'm thinking more in line with the budget put towards the military by the prc. The prc ranks third in the world in size of military budget, only behind that of the US and Russia ~ the majority of this money goes towards advanced missile technology, or navy/air force. Without any clear threat to China, it seems pretty clear that this cash is going towards the "taiwan issue". This is clearly a much larger amount of capital that could be spent for advancing standards of life.

It's so ironic ~ the best theoretical government is the worst actual government.

[will_zhng]

Yeah, but imagine if there is actually a war happening between china and tw right now...I wouldnt think the government is wasting money of those missiles if it will secure victory.

[kewlpiggy88]

yeah but your rationale for being patriotic still doesn't make sense. If you lived in a country that took away every man's penis (i'm being drastic here to make a point), and some people protested against that, are you calling them unpatriotic? i mean..you'd rather have your sexual organ cut off to be patriotic? you can't just accept things - if you think something's unfair or unjust, do something about it!

[KendoTiger]

But the only way they would need more advanced missile technology is if they were actually going to attack Taiwan ~ face it, there is no way Taiwan would ever attack the mainland first. But if they were going to attack Taiwan, they would follow a "scortched earth" (sp?) policy, something they have made fairly obvious with previous statements, in which they would literally wipe-out Taiwan.

That's another thing ~ what is the point of "taking over" a country, if you firebomb it so much that there isn't anyone left? You can't even use it after you're done attacking it. It's like ~ owning those pointless, uninhabited islands in the middle of the mediteranian, or between japan and china.

[will_zhng]

I dun get it, wat happened to all the other patriotic chinese ppl who were arguing in the other tw topic gone of to? I guess they left the forum.....I dun like getting gained up on.....Oh well. All you guys are just so ... hypocritical... i mean because the chinese government acted in a, well, I guess you can called it MEAN, way doesnt mean their a bad government, I mean personally, If i was on my way to work and i got fired from work cuz these protesters (who should all get a life) block the transport system, then id wanna shoot them too. Dont get my point, then let me go into further detail:
- They should get a life rather than go around causing trouble in ppls lives
- they should get a job
- they should be more patriotic, and so should tw ppl to the chinese gov
- they suck, i hate protesters, they piss me off

I mean would you tw c***s let a bunch of protesters run a country everyone has worked so hard to build? NO YOU WOULDNT, SO STOP JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS AND JUST THINK ABOUT THE SITUATION FIRST!

[kewlpiggy88]

i'm not jumping to conclusion. i don't see how they disrupted the everyday life of chinese citizens? how do you know they don't have a job? why whould taiwan ppl be patriotic to a government that wants to nuke the country?

your whole argument is based on being patriotic. i don't htink YOU are looking at the situation. you think protestors are just a bunch of lazy people who don't have anything else to do but complain? well, maybe yes in some cases, but not in this one. they were educated people who learned about another form of government that they think would work better for them. THEY DON'T NOT HAVE JOBS. besides, they were students, studying just like you and me.

[KendoTiger]

The whole point of a government is to support the will of its citizens, and in rare cases when the public does not know best, to chose the most appropriate and beneficial action for the country. The people who are to blame for the massacre of those people didn't do it because they believe that they were helping the country, they did it because they didn't want to lose their grip on power.

We aren't ganging up on you, its just that you are the only one presenting opinions that are against ours. I wouldn't mind if you brought in some friends from other threads to give different opinions.

The majority of the people killed/hurt at the square were students, who were educated enough to see their lack of freedom, and bold enough to try to do something about it. I think that a peaceful protest is much better than razing the whole of beijing. Lately, the people being trampled upon ~ besides pretty much everyone ~ are the farmers and rural chinese. With local chinese buricrats selling land that isn't theirs ~ given to the local chinese during the cultural revolution ~ to incoming companies, they are filling their pockets while destroying these people's lives. I believe this corruption, present throughout the prc, goes beyond being a little "mean".

As I said before, the majority were students, or other middle-class, working adults. They had jobs.

The whole point they were protesting wasn't because they hated China ~ they loved it. Too much to see the prc, representing less than 1/500 of the population of China. *According to size estimation of the communist party in relation to the total population of China = 1.4million/1billion*

Honestly, I agree with you ~ for most things, I hate protests, and protestors. When the cause is so unbelievably stupid, such as diverting money from schools to go towards saving a type of fish. Still, I support their right to protest, to speak out against something they view as wrong. Well, in the case of the prc and tianenmen square ~ I support the protestors. I don't think this makes me hypocritical, just chosing what kind of dispute I would support.

The prc didn't build china...I don't know what you're talking about. Oh ~ just to bring something up, even people who served as officers in the communist army ~ some that still do ~ believe the cultural revolution was a mistake, which damaged china. Just check out the current museum created by Deng Xiaoping in Shantou.

Honestly, I don't see how the prc can yell at Japan and demand that they "face their past", when they are being hypocrits and not doing the same.

*For the record, I like Japanese culture, even if I carry a little resentment of what they did during ww2 to china and korea.*

[will_zhng]

Yeah but your not reaching the point, would you let a bunch of protesters run a country with a billion ppl?

[scarletwillow]

Peace-up, A-town down.
Call-out!!! to all my unification CHIGGAZ down herr in dis jizzoint.

[KendoTiger]

the prc, representing less than 1/500 of the population of China. *According to size estimation of the communist party in relation to the total population of China = 1.4million/1billion*

[edit] fixing the quote border [end of edit]

Of course, why not let a few power-hungry fanatics run it instead?

[Nopy]

I didn't want to read the whole thread so I just sorta skimmed through most of it and I just have a few comments to add:

1. For those of you saying China doesn't have legal rights to Taiwan, you're wrong. According to the UN, Taiwan is Chinese territory. The only country opposing this view is the United States.

2. I admit the People's Republic of China has done some bad things in the past, but the situation seems to be improving with no major incidents since Tiananmen Square and the introduction of a free market economy.

3. Some of you say that the People's Republic of China is corrupt, but if you looked at the situation in China during WWII with the Republic of China under Chiang Kai-chek, they were equally as corrupt if not worse.

[KendoTiger]

1) And Taiwan. The UN doesn't oppose the prc because unless you are forgetting, China is a nuclear power. The UN doesn't want to provoke a war ~ despite Taiwan's rightful claim for independence ~ just because it would create another cold war, or even a nuclear holocaust.

2) The arrest ~ without charge ~ of foreign reporters. The attempted retreival of political opponents who fled to other countries in an attempt for amnesty ~ for a "special" welcome if they are forced to return. The censorship of internet sites that promote free response on political issues within China, and the arrest of any who post anti-prc comments on them. There are more ~ I'll post later.

3) I never said Chiang Kai-chek wasn't corrupt ~ he was an authoritarian government. In other words, much the way the prc is today with an oligarchy.

[edit] Hey wll zhng ~ you finally have someone who agrees with you :) [end of edit]

[will_zhng]

But think about it, You all eat dim sims, you all eat noodles, hey even i like noodles so what is the fuss?

[scarletwillow]

2) The arrest ~ without charge ~ of foreign reporters. The attempted retreival of political opponents who fled to other countries in an attempt for amnesty ~ for a "special" welcome if they are forced to return. The censorship of internet sites that promote free response on political issues within China, and the arrest of any who post anti-prc comments on them. There are more ~ I'll post later.


America still does this trash too.
Hell, with America, it's even more absurd. Just look at Bobby Fischer.

[kewlpiggy88]

But think about it, You all eat dim sims, you all eat noodles, hey even i like noodles so what is the fuss?

so you're going to base it off FOOD? and btw, it's dim SUM.

[Nopy]

KendoTiger: I agree that nuclear weapons do play some part in it, but even if China didn't have any nuclear weapons I don't think the UN would back Taiwan because it would be seen as a civil war so they can't interfere. However, if China openly attacked an established state, I believe the UN has learned from the failure of the League of Nations and appeasement and would take action regardless of whether or not China had nuclear weapons.

As for MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction), I find it hard to believe that two countries would continually nuke each other until they're both gone, the destruction of several major cities would probably force both sides to a peace agreement first.

[sagara0510]

he said dim sim cos he's in melbourne... thats how AUSSIES say dim sum

maybe he needs to go back to his beloved china and be re-educated.

[KendoTiger]

1) Scarlet Willow ~ I agree that America's actions are currently pretty hypocritical concerning jailing people without trial yet there are a few differences. And I'm not trying to defend Bush btw... a) the people jailed are foreigners who have taken up arms and physically fought the US, they were not "targeted" because they voiced their opinion of the government, but because they violently and recklessly endangered many peoples lives to express it. b) America has never hacked into a political site that offered a place for other people's oppinion ~ it would violate constitutional rights and civil liberties. They are only allowed to do this when it presents a clear desire to hurt people ~ not hurt the government. c) Honestly, I don't see how Bobby Fischer presents a clear point for you, but I'll admit the US is stupidly trying to charge him for playing chess against a russian guy during the cold war.

2) Nody ~ in what sense isn't Taiwan an independent country? They govern themselves, they elect their own leaders, they create their own laws, they manage their own economies. The reason why the UN doesn't want to get involved is because they don't want to pressure the prc ~ as it is one of the strongest forces currently in the global arena. What about UN peacekeepers in Darfur? how about Columbia? there's always Haiti. In these cases, the UN has quickly pledged peacekeeping forces in an attempt to prevent bloodshed during cases of civil war. There is no reason why the UN would not get involved except to try and appease the prc. As for the past failures of the LON and Britian, trust me, they haven't gotten much better ~ look at their policy in regards to human rights violations. Oh ~ and while you're looking, check out the basic human rights violations caused by the prc in the last twenty years.

As for the MAD, face it, it's a reality. When a country launches it's warheads, it isn't a 1 shot thing, where each side trades off until they surrender. Multiple warheads ~ every one on the specific coast, will launch ~ to ensure that the enemy is completely destroyed and can't launch more missiles. This first wave is all that is needed to completely decimate a country ~ especially because the points of impact are made to be major military and production centers, cities.

I agree, if he has such love for the commy way of life, I think you should try a little experiment. Go into China for a week and while you're there, try putting up posters saying how much communism sucks, and how china needs democracy. I want to see how long it takes before you're arrested.

[fajitapita]

I havent posted for a while in here, and the last time i did it was kinda not well organized and i wasnt able to go in depth cuz i had midterms, but I've been skimming through this thread and I've gotta admit, I've developed a mad crush on KendoTiger for being so dedicated. But not only that, he is fair and has a rather rational way of viewing things. *thumbs up* hahaha, i came into this thread thinking i would get all frustrated and hafta start arguing, but KendoTiger's got a pretty good grip on things so i doan think I hab very much to add.

[KendoTiger]

*blushes*

Thanks, although I'm not that great when it comes to debates...

[seaweedpatchkid]

I dun get it, wat happened to all the other patriotic chinese ppl who were arguing in the other tw topic gone of to? I guess they left the forum.....I dun like getting gained up on.....Oh well. All you guys are just so ... hypocritical... i mean because the chinese government acted in a, well, I guess you can called it MEAN, way doesnt mean their a bad government, I mean personally, If i was on my way to work and i got fired from work cuz these protesters (who should all get a life) block the transport system, then id wanna shoot them too. Dont get my point, then let me go into further detail:
- They should get a life rather than go around causing trouble in ppls lives
- they should get a job
- they should be more patriotic, and so should tw ppl to the chinese gov
- they suck, i hate protesters, they piss me off

I mean would you tw c***s let a bunch of protesters run a country everyone has worked so hard to build? NO YOU WOULDNT, SO STOP JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS AND JUST THINK ABOUT THE SITUATION FIRST!


Why do you hate protestors? Is there something wrong with them? Protestors are voicing their opinion, just as you are now. They just happen to do it in a way that will attract attention to their cause. Is there something so wrong with that?

I know I'd go to a protest against my Governor's educational budget cuts.

Some great leaders come from people who lead protests too.

[kewlpiggy88]

sagara: ooh, i didn't know they spelled dim sum diff! that's pretty cool, i guess...i'm pretty sure it's dim sum everywhere else.

hey will_zhng, do you hate those protestors who were mad about the japanese books?

also, my history teacher said there's been a vote in puerto rico to get it to be a part of the U.S., but only puerto ricans vote on it. they've tried it 3x already but each time it hasn't passed, but the %age wanting to be a state gets bigger. so at least the US is asking the people themselves.

seaweed: i remember those. a lot of ppl went to protest too! WE ARE THE FUTURE OF CALIFORNIA! why would you not want to educate us? doesn't make sense...

[sagara0510]

- They should get a life rather than go around causing trouble in ppls lives
- they should get a job
- they should be more patriotic, and so should tw ppl to the chinese gov
- they suck, i hate protesters, they piss me off

hmm... ok...

- they have a life and thats why they are standing up for what they belive in
- they probably have jobs otherwise they wouldn't b able to afford the time to stand up for what they believe in
- exactly what do the tw people owe to the chinese government that requires them to be SO patriotic?
- oh u left the best for last buddy...so... they shouldnt' protest because they piss you off... wow... way to go with the discussion... so so.. if a teacher at school... 'pisses you off'... then i guess that teacher should b fired rite? or or.. if the car infront of you drives too slow and pisses you off... their car should explode rite!?

WAY TO GO BUDDY!!!

*CLAPS HANDS*

future debate champ right here!

[PolarTw]

if chi taks over tw, tw's country wil fal down as hk did..after chi got hk bak now hk isnt as good as before.

[will_zhng]

Okay, let me re-phrase that last comment for ppl who think Im insane. YOU HAVE SMALL EYES, I HAVE SMALL EYES (well, actually not) BUT MOST CHINESE PPL HAVE SMALL EYES, SO WATS THE FUSS??? In the end we're the same, except that i guess chinese eyes are bigger than taiwanese eyes on average, but heck, we're just a bit better so thats close enogh

[sagara0510]

ok so by ur logic... the bigger your eyes... the more superior you are?

do you have any idea how racist your post is? you might as well have said that white people are better than asian people because they have bigger eyes than us..

what is wrong with you?

[kahel]

Okay, let me re-phrase that last comment for ppl who think Im insane. YOU HAVE SMALL EYES, I HAVE SMALL EYES (well, actually not) BUT MOST CHINESE PPL HAVE SMALL EYES, SO WATS THE FUSS??? In the end we're the same, except that i guess chinese eyes are bigger than taiwanese eyes on average, but heck, we're just a bit better so thats close enogh

:nocommen:

try to read what you just wrote. try it thrice. if you can't see anything wrong...I pity you, boy.


:dry:

[hisashiluv14]

Whenever I read things that go, "All Chinese people have small/slanted eyes", I just want to break something. I think it's hilarious that you claim to be so pro-Chinese and yet it's pretty evident that you've been conditioned by Hollywood and "white culture" to subscribe to such a gross, unfair and ignorant stereotype. It's blatantly racist and utterly untrue. I'm 100% Chinese without a single drop of non-Chinese blood in my blood stream, but uh, my eyes are far from what you can call 'small'. Hmm, I guess that makes me not Chinese then.

Even though many others have already responded to your previous post, I just can't help myself from putting in my two cents' worth, so here goes:

I dun get it, wat happened to all the other patriotic chinese ppl who were arguing in the other tw topic gone of to? I guess they left the forum.....I dun like getting gained up on.....Oh well. All you guys are just so ... hypocritical... i mean because the chinese government acted in a, well, I guess you can called it MEAN, way doesnt mean their a bad government, I mean personally, If i was on my way to work and i got fired from work cuz these protesters (who should all get a life) block the transport system, then id wanna shoot them too. Dont get my point, then let me go into further detail:
- They should get a life rather than go around causing trouble in ppls lives
- they should get a job
- they should be more patriotic, and so should tw ppl to the chinese gov
- they suck, i hate protesters, they piss me off

I mean would you tw cunts let a bunch of protesters run a country everyone has worked so hard to build? NO YOU WOULDNT, SO STOP JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS AND JUST THINK ABOUT THE SITUATION FIRST!



1) 'They should get a life'? Hahahahaha. This is a joke right?

2) They were university students - clearly you weren't aware of that fact.

3) What does Taiwan owe to China? If anything, I'd say that China owes Taiwan its long-overdue formal independence.

4) You suck, I hate your opinion, you piss me off, hence I have the right to shoot you. Right.

Thanks for the entertainment.

[laruku]

I rarely post anything here but seeing the stuff that some clueless boy posted, I guess it's over the top.

I dun like getting gained up on.....Oh well. All you guys are just so ... hypocritical... i mean because the chinese government acted in a, well, I guess you can called it MEAN, way doesnt mean their a bad government,
1) If you can put up a decent argument and not base on YOU being pissed off, maybe you can convert some people. Obviously, at this current stage, you are probably converting people to pro-TW independence

2) Why are we hypocritical? Pray tell. All I can say YOU are more hypocritical. You say the government was mean. And you say its not bad. So its good if someone is mean to you? If some fella slaps you or insults you theya re really being really good friends and lovely people?

Okay, let me re-phrase that last comment for ppl who think Im insane. YOU HAVE SMALL EYES, I HAVE SMALL EYES (well, actually not) BUT MOST CHINESE PPL HAVE SMALL EYES, SO WATS THE FUSS??? In the end we're the same, except that i guess chinese eyes are bigger than taiwanese eyes on average, but heck, we're just a bit better so thats close enogh
Oh come on! It's just like saying black eyes are good and the blacker it is the more superior you are. Sounds ridiculous? So does your proposition.

[dagamezmasta]

ok this isn't really relevant but..

i don't really mind people saying we asians have small eyes. it's just a hereditary thing.

Okay, let me re-phrase that last comment for ppl who think Im insane. YOU HAVE SMALL EYES, I HAVE SMALL EYES (well, actually not) BUT MOST CHINESE PPL HAVE SMALL EYES, SO WATS THE FUSS??? In the end we're the same, except that i guess chinese eyes are bigger than taiwanese eyes on average, but heck, we're just a bit better so thats close enogh


erm.. aren't you contradicting yourself? "we're the same," followed by "we're just a bit better"?

i don't think taiwan should become independent, and i think china has the right to use military action to retake taiwan. however, if they do, i hope china doesn't ashame themselves by using brute violence.

or maybe i'm just supporting china because i am chinese. heck.. maybe i bet if i was taiwanese, i'd support taiwan. anywho, i'm for china.

[littlefishie]

Okay, let me re-phrase that last comment for ppl who think Im insane. YOU HAVE SMALL EYES, I HAVE SMALL EYES (well, actually not) BUT MOST CHINESE PPL HAVE SMALL EYES, SO WATS THE FUSS??? In the end we're the same, except that i guess chinese eyes are bigger than taiwanese eyes on average, but heck, we're just a bit better so thats close enogh
You know, with people like you around, I think I'm quite ashamed to be Chinese... Damn, what is the world coming to?

[KendoTiger]

[QUOTE=laruku]1) If you can put up a decent argument and not base on YOU being pissed off, maybe you can convert some people. Obviously, at this current stage, you are probably converting people to pro-TW independence
QUOTE]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

Besides, it's insulting to the people who believe that Taiwan should rejoin the PRC who have an actual reason. I mean, the whole point of a debate is to have a debate, not a shouting match where you throw out your opinion without backing it up, or making racist slanders when people point to your lack of background information.

Since I'm trying to be fair here ~ I want some supported opinions, I'll post some arguments for the prc side. Obviously, wll zhng isn't doing it, so here goes ~ but remember I'm pro-Taiwanese Independence....

1) With the possibility of the coming decline in the Taiwanese economy ~ shadowing the effects of the Japanese Economic Depression, it would be in the best interest of Taiwan to join formally with China. Despite restrictions on business imposed by the PRC, China has a strong uptrend of economic growth, which, as it is based on lower consumer goods, will not be as likely to wane as a technology-based economy ~ ie Japan and Taiwan. With the inability of Taiwan to sell out part of its Banking Industry to foreign investors, the possibility of a wrecking economic decline is definitely possible for the future.

2) Although Taiwanese people have a strong sense for Independence, local polls and elections show that the other half of Taiwan is fiercly pro-integration. With President Chen losing many of his supporting legislators with local elections, and even the attempted assasination on his life ~ you have to wonder exactly who he is trying to represent with his proposed Independence Vote.

3) If there were a war with China, Taiwan, though having the ability to defend itself, will significantly lose its ability to function. Unlike China, Taiwan has a weak offensive capability, and will therefore recieve the brunt of any conflict. With such a possibility of destruction, would it really make sense to be "dead and free". Again, the likelyhood of intervention by anyone other than the US ~ and possibly Japan ~ is slim.

More coming if I can think of any ~

[sagara0510]

^ in response to some of your Pro Intergration

1. Do you really believe (well i guess you don't cos ur not Pro Intergration) that Taiwan's economy justifies intergration? you can safely compare it to a hostile takeover in the corporate world. Its not right and it can't be justified

2. You will never get 100% agreement on any given situation. I'm not surprised there are taiwanese people who would like to be part of China. Thats why in a democratic society people vote so they can determine their own fate.

3. You forget one very important thing when you say that the likelyhood of intervention by anyone besides the US and japan is slim.

Allies.

If the US go in and Japan, i can assure you that most likely Britain, Australia and New Zealand will follow suit not to mention any number of European countries will probably follow suit. We only have to look at past situations like that of Afghanistan. How many allied nations participated in that exercise?

[KendoTiger]

Alright ~ here's your answers.

1) With a decline in the economy, people will be more desperate to change their form of government, whether it be structually or by new elections. With a strong chance for a severe economic downturn, politicians within Taiwan will need to seek closer ties with China if it hopes to avoid an economic collapse ~ note: I'm making large generalizations, I know. Sigh. Basically, it would be in the best interest of Taiwan to foster closer ties with China when it's economy is capable of supporting itself and its defense, rather than waiting till it's "weak and crippled". All this basically does is to allow Taiwan to gain a few more concessions ~ but that would still be better than nothing.

2) Although what you said is true, the extremely large percentage of people supporting integration makes it impossible to say "The people of Taiwan want to be independent." If you look at it statistically, the difference in percentage points is so low that you cannot make a reasonable assumption of the population's "wish" ~ based on a chi-squared test. In most countries, an opinion that reflects the majority's will is generally 15-20% higher than the minority; with Taiwan, it's more like 3-4%.

3) Firstly, look at the relative percentage of cost/manpower put in by those "allies" in Iraq, and compare them to the total country's military might. Then compare that to what the US put in. Secondly, many countries have stated openly that they will not support a US intervention in the fight between Taiwan and the PRC ~ these are our allies and members of the UN. Why'd you think the UN didn't want to get involved? Because the member countries don't. That "any number" would refer to one: Britain. Britain would probably pledge only minimal force ~ compared to if they still controlled HK. Face it, their interest is out of Asia ~ they moved on to the EU. Japan would to protect itself, and still has kept it's military descretion to "defense force". They would only provide supplies, or protect the area of Japan, they wouldn't pledge any combat troops ~ at most they would send "military advisors" like in Iraq. Australia? Maybe. *shrugs*

[judes]

1) what you're basically saying is that taiwan should be thrown a few more scraps than what it would be allotted if its economy was a failure in the event of possible re-integration. i don't believe in fighting for china to give me a few more scraps so that i may have a possibility of becoming economically strong yet suppressed by a distant mainland government. and the ability for china to boost taiwan's economy in the first place is debatable anyway.

2) oh? show me some stats please. i'd like to see them.

3) i agree with your point. the UN is useless in this situation and would do nothing. world organizations have always shown themselves to be incapable of doing anything when a superpower or a potential superpower decides to break the rules.

[kewlpiggy88]

ah, little willy, you just crack me up. btw, the little willy is NOT a term of endearment.

[KendoTiger]

Judes ~

I based my assumption on the polls surrounding the month before and after the last presidential election.

Currently, I've been searching online for sources that would support my belief while showing no clear bias. So far, I haven't found any ~ which can mean either two things:

1) due to the variability of public sentiment in reaction to new events ~ such as the anti-succession law ~ I will have to search deeper into the past and establish a timeline of opinion polls that prove my point.

2) I'm wrong ~ the most probable thing.

I will continue to search for a while ~ I'll let anyone know of any new polls for a while.

[judes]

because to my knowledge, things were shaky after the presidential election, and with the....elections to congress (is that what they call it?) with a kuomingtan majority. but now i think there's a resurgence of support for the green party after lien zhan's visit to china.

i read a few weeks ago though.
i don't know what might have changed since then.
maybe the visits to the mainland by two of the three main party leaders changed a lot of the opinion of the popuation.

[KendoTiger]

Update of webpages:
Please check out the following website, as it sums up 44 of the most representative surveys in Taiwan during the last couple months:

http://www.mac.gov.tw/english/english/pos/pos9102e.htm

The statistical information is collected and concluded by the Mainland Affairs Council, in Taipei, Taiwan, so I do not believe it should be very biased.

You can always check the mainsite for more information ~ just to see if it proves my point or not. I'll do a little checking, but I'm kinda tired.

[POTO]

Well, if any of u have studied history before... You will know that Taiwan is always and will be part of china forever, no matter how strong the rejections were made by the taiwanese, no offense here.

Anyway, it will be good for a change isn't it, ni hao wo ye hao.

[josh_yth]

Taiwan should really be reintergrate with China. Just look at it how messy is the presidential election in Taiwan compared to the peaceful transfer of power in China from Jiang Zemin to Hu Jintao. Also, it's really for their own good to be part of China, since they can gain some new economic advantage, and avoid a possible military clash with the mainland(they would lose no matter what, coz the PRC is builting their military is such a incredible speed right now and such a high budget 4 it too).

[josh_yth]

Taiwan should really be reintergrate with China. Just look at it how messy is the presidential election in Taiwan compared to the peaceful transfer of power in China from Jiang Zemin to Hu Jintao. Also, it's really for their own good to be part of China, since they can gain some new economic advantage, and avoid a possible military clash with the mainland(they would lose no matter what, coz the PRC is builting their military is such a incredible speed right now with such a high budget 4 it too, and now asking the EU to lift the ban on military equipment in EU).

ps I used to live it HK until 1999 and i didn't see anything different before and after hk is handed back. also, the only reason that hk stock exchange didn't collapse completely is that China have poured in so much money from mainland to the market in hk to keep it from complete collapse, which the british crown wouldn't really do anything to help to save it if they were still in power.

[Pods]

"Just look at it how messy is the presidential election in Taiwan compared to the peaceful transfer of power in China from Jiang Zemin to Hu Jintao."

So what? Better countries than Taiwan have had shaky transfers of power. Take America for example. The transfer of power from Buchanan to Lincoln sparked Civil War.

"Also, it's really for their own good to be part of China, since they can gain some new economic advantage"

Taiwan's economy is fine on it's own. It's surviving right now while some may still consider China to be a 3rd world country

"and avoid a possible military clash with the mainland(they would lose no matter what, coz the PRC is builting their military is such a incredible speed right now and such a high budget 4 it too)"

China wouldn't risk war with Taiwan, because the US would intervene on Taiwan's behalf. Conflict with America is the last thing China wants right now.

[josh_yth]

"Also, it's really for their own good to be part of China, since they can gain some new economic advantage"

Taiwan's economy is fine on it's own. It's surviving right now while some may still consider China to be a 3rd world country

"and avoid a possible military clash with the mainland(they would lose no matter what, coz the PRC is builting their military is such a incredible speed right now and such a high budget 4 it too)"

China wouldn't risk war with Taiwan, because the US would intervene on Taiwan's behalf. Conflict with America is the last thing China wants right now.

Taiwan economy isn't really doing that good as of right now, many of the business is starting to move their headquarter to mainland, even many of the Taiwaness business. i think that the gov't of Taiwan is trying to pass a law that prevent many business from moving to china or at least prevent the transfer of large sum of money from Taiwan to China.

Well, US did make one statement that if Taiwan is the one that first put fire into the tension(anything to anger the mainland or start the war), then US wouldn't help them.

[Pods]

Quotes from Randall Schriver, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs made in 2003.

"Taiwan is also, as our colleagues in private industry know well, a key economic power in the region and the world. It is the U.S.' eighth-largest trading partner. As of November 2002, the U.S. exported $16.9 billion worth of goods to Taiwan, and imported $29.4 billion. Taiwan is a world leader in several key IT areas such as notebook computers, LCD displays, and associated technologies. Taiwan is also positioning itself to be a player in emerging fields like biotechnology."

Taiwan is definitely doing fine on its own.

"The United States has provided Taiwan with a significant quantity of defensive weapons over the last 20 years, and during that period has been Taiwan's most reliable supplier of weapons. We continue to fulfill our commitment under the Taiwan Relations Act to provide for Taiwan's legitimate defensive needs. We have assisted Taiwan's military modernization program."

The United States will definitely help Taiwan if it comes to military needs

[josh_yth]

Quotes from Randall Schriver, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs made in 2003.
"Taiwan is also, as our colleagues in private industry know well, a key economic power in the region and the world. It is the U.S.' eighth-largest trading partner. As of November 2002, the U.S. exported $16.9 billion worth of goods to Taiwan, and imported $29.4 billion. Taiwan is a world leader in several key IT areas such as notebook computers, LCD displays, and associated technologies. Taiwan is also positioning itself to be a player in emerging fields like biotechnology."
Taiwan is definitely doing fine on its own.
"The United States has provided Taiwan with a significant quantity of defensive weapons over the last 20 years, and during that period has been Taiwan's most reliable supplier of weapons. We continue to fulfill our commitment under the Taiwan Relations Act to provide for Taiwan's legitimate defensive needs. We have assisted Taiwan's military modernization program."
The United States will definitely help Taiwan if it comes to military needs

well, do u think that US want to keep the eighth largest trading partner(Taiwan), or second or third largest trading partner(China)? if u ask me, i would definitly choose the second largest partner, since it'll make more revenue 4 the gov't. Also, a lot of the US stores and business depended on china export, such as Wal-Mart, Seares, and etc..

well, about the part US helping Taiwan, it might have change since then.

[KendoTiger]

Sigh ~

I'm sorry, but the US is not likely to pledge direct support of Taiwan (military) owing to the fact that China is 1) a Nuclear Power and 2) one of the US' top 3 trading partners (this is variable depending on gdp/amount of imports/exports).

Rather, America will do one of the following:
1) Provide "pressure" to China to give Taiwan better terms of surrender/"negotiation" than it would have before, IE government would resemble HK - foreign leadership with local "middle-men". They might also try to limit actual fighting between Taiwanese Forces and China, to facilitate a "bloodless" takeover.
2) Provide military advisors and material to Taiwanese Forces, similar to Vietnam.

Now, why should Taiwan be connected to the PRC? Can you even give me a why?

I pray for an Independent Taiwan. T_T

[azn_babii_gurl]

being a Taiwanese sometimes i really am ashamed of taiwan, with the politicians constantly fighting and bitching about each other and the stupid president who does nothing but complain. :crazy:

i do want taiwan to be independent.. but just not while its under the "reign" of the current president. even though hopes of us being a separate country in the next 10 yrs is dim.

a few weeks ago george bush complimented taiwan on its democratic rules as compared to china + suggested that china would be better off being a democratic country.

of course the US will intervene if a war does break out with china and taiwan, because thats what they've always done. :dry: ok im not being sarcastic i know without help from US taiwan will definetely lose :wacko:

[cowboy]

Dont yous get it, the whole point of the civil war was to determine the party who governs China. The Communist Party won therefore they get to overthrow and take over the WHOLE of China. Taiwan is apart of China, therefore, the war isnt over until Taiwan is captured. I think I might go back to china too, just to enrol as well. See you on the battlefield Kendo Tiger! Most of all, it'll happen all in Taiwan, so I wont hold out on the explosives.

Oh, Willy. You poor victim of Communist propoganda. Here you are trying to advocate the destruction of what is, for all intents and purposes, a sovereign and independent nation merely because you think that the gangsters that took over China after the Japanese were expelled won the war. Had the Communists been fighting the Japanese like the rest of the country during occupation instead of sabotaging the ROC's resistence efforts, it might have been a fair fight. However, the Communists took advantage of a war-weary army and mopped the floor with them with its cowardly, but fresh soldiers. I suggest you read The Nine Commentaries on the Chinese Communist Party. The CCP is one of the worst evils to ever plague the Earth. For Taiwan to succum to the power of this entity is unthinkable, and I'm glad to be a citizen of the United States of America, one of the only countries that has pledged to defend Taiwan from an unjust invasion by the Mainland.

Let's assume for a second that Taiwan was once a part of China (which of course is historically fallible as the only Chinese to ever have any real control over the island were pirates and rouge factions of the Emperors' enemies), before you can finish the job of taking over the WHOLE of China, I would start with Kinmen island as it is right off the shore of China. Seeing as how China hadn't been able to take that tiny little island after 30 years of artillery barrages and failed invasions, looks like the whole of Taiwan is going to be a formidable task. I wish you luck and pray that you think about the millions of lives that would be lost for no other reason than stupid, sick Communist Pride.

[Melvin]

whether or not taiwan remains a state of china or become an independent country, how will it impact its people??

if there are better links between China and Taiwan, will there be more trade? Why did the Kuo Min Tang (KMT) have to side with China and promote its 'One China' policy? Isn't it because it failed to oust incumbent president Mr Chen Shui Bian?

didn't KMT run from China to taiwan? so isn't it true that this is simply a case of 3 enemies, where 2 join forces to take out 1? Taiwan is a very active country now, being at the forefront of producing computer peripherals.... (if i spelt correctly)... Isn't Jay from Taiwan... Celebrities have gotten in trouble for promoting or agreeing/disagreeing with the proposed independence of Taiwan... they got banned from entering China...

[cowboy]

Which is precisely the problem, Melvin. So many Taiwanese are concerned about money that they wouldn't ever dream making the necessary sacrafices needed to tear away from the Mainland. When the US broke away from Great Britian, it severed ties with it's number one trading partner. Mexico did the name, oh, and Haiti, and basically every country to gain independence from another has been in the same boat. If more famous artists and athletes like Jay or Wang Chien-Ming would speak out for Taiwanese independence, it wouldn't be so taboo anymore. It only takes one voice in the right place, at the right time to let the world hear. I gaurantee, despite China's harsh threats and all of its talk, if the world stood behind Taiwan, China would have to back down.

China should be proud of itself, thus far (since the late 1970's) it has managed to scare the world into doing whatever it wants. Congratualtions for denying basic human rights and freedoms to a sixth of the world's population and tortutring and killing countless others without reprecussion.:dry:

[skyline]

Holy crap... Taiwan isn't an independent country!?!?! Oh man... I need to get into the world issues more... well... all I have to say is that I consider Taiwanese people Chinese... Cause seriously... most Chinese people just migrate there... 0_o?? And for some reason the majority of them can speak mandarin... actually practically all of them speak mandarin!!!... Lastly... I heart Jay Chou!!!!

[DragonPrince]

I think China and Taiwan should not fight for that issue. It would be a disgrace to the Chinese. I mean, those people who are selling weapons are the ones who will benefit from all these.

Taiwan has been like that (not being with China) for so long. Maybe we should leave it that way.

[xWindwalkerx]

People, Ever heard of brinkmanship? Shit, one of the sides - United States of America or the Republic of China- is going to flinch from total nuclear war in the fact that it actually does happen. However, at this point in time bloodless reunifcation is on the chinese main goal list. But truelly things will go as usual.

[sam_ho]

Of course!!!!! Well I mean...all people wants their own country to be an independent country right??!! So me too. Although I think that China is crossing the line sometimes...They're even thinking about attacking us!!! ><;'

[Dragnox]

I agree, Taiwan is really already independent in all but name. But without that recognition, Taiwan is still thought of as being part of China.

However strong the relations (or lack thereof), one must notice that Taiwan has flourished when one its own. Under Chinese and Japanese rule, there really was no improvement, not social justices. Taiwan today is one of the greatest economic powers, and it became as such in under 100 years. It took the US much longer.

Also, though both Taiwan and China have their national language as Mandarin, the culture behind it is very different. Taiwan is a democracy, as it has been for a while now...China is not. Taiwan also has it's own language, Taiwanese.

Militarily, Taiwan is much smaller, but more advanced. I read this somewhere before when I was doing the UN project (representing Taiwan). Of advanced jet fighters, the Taiwanese to Chinese ratio is between 6:1 and 7:1. Taiwan could probably hold its own for a while. However, if the regularity of adding missiles that are aimed at Taiwan has continued, there would be about 512 missiles aimed all over Taiwan from the mainland.

The Taiwanese people then live in constant fear of some form of aggression. I think that the Taiwanese people warrant their own protection under their own government, of their seperate-from-China nation.

[KendoTiger]

People...revived this...and added intelligent points

T_T *crying on the inside*

And here I go adding nothing, hmm. WELL ~

The major underlying problem for Taiwan if it indeed got into a conflict with the PRC is not militaristically, but economically and socially. First of all ~ a conflict with the PRC would sever all trade connections between the two countries, and result (due to capitalism in Taiwan while government control of major industry in the PRC) in a strong economic loss for Taiwan. Although a similar loss would be felt by the PRC, it would be significantly reduced (simply by economic structure). Mainly, the problem would be with a defeatest populace (as in any war where the fighting is brought to home, people will lose their resolve to continue to fight). With an already knowticably divided population (the PRC might be divided, but any opposition isn't allowed) ~ Taiwan would quickly lose popular support (within their nation) for continuing any attempt at freedom.

The US is doubtful to support Taiwan in any form of direct support, for the following *current* reasons: without the support of Sharon in Israel, there will be preocupation with the middle east (seen with more direct impact ~ thanks from sept. 11, in comparison to supporting another democracy); secondly, a new president will be elected by the time this would happen, and I doubt they would be as quick to enter a war (or military action), following such a long conflict from Bush; third, the only thing that the US CAN do is offer the end gaurentee (nuclear war), as there will be no time to prevent the massive missile attack that will preceed any true attack by the PRC. Now, maybe invasion if they want the business, but if Taiwan refuses PRC advancement, it will be a matter of pride more than anything ~ so it will be missiles. IF any country ever risked nuclear war for another country, I would like to hear about it (*preemptively counters with cuban missile crisis*). Thank you USA for your help with Taiwan o_O

[LayRyan]

I want an independent taiwan...the name msut be changed to REPUBLIC of TAIWAN...yeah!!!!!!!!!!!

[Reina]

I agree that Liberty is a thing to twd. However, there r so many things that Taiwan can benefit from being close w/ China and the other way around. Together, both can make China+ Taiwan altogether so much stronger!!! I don't see why the change is necessary. I think Chinese people and Taiwanese people have so many things alike yet different. they can learn a lot about each other and communicate better being together.

[lotusSan]

I'm not too sure whether or not Taiwan should be an independent country. But I certainly believe that they should have the right to be independent if the govt. of Taiwan and the citizens of Taiwan want to be independent. It is quite unfair for China to threaten military action towards Taiwan. But I'm actually not in favor of the workings of either government, no offense to anyone, I'm just basing on what I see on TV and hear from news and shows.
[g2g more later] : )

[stitchphil]

I'm not for an independent Taiwanese Government. I'm not saying that they don't have the right to, which they certainly have. But I don't think it should be. No offence to anyone.

And perhaps, the approach by both Taiwan and China may be wrong. For one, China should not be so quick to roll out the use of military invasion as a threat. Because, as much as they may threaten Taiwan, they know for one that a war will not benefit either country because they are major trading partners. Maybe China should remove the military issue and continue its negotiation.

Many countries in the world do not regconise Taiwan as an independent state, including the United States. Taiwan is still considered under a part of the PRC by many countries as they firmly believe in the "One-China" policy.

China and Taiwan are already learning a lot from each other. So I think both countries should be diplomatic and smart enough not to go into war as it will not benefit either state, nor will it benefit the rest of the world's economy, which is what the US wants to avoid at all costs.

[josh_yth]

Well, i think the public opinion of this issue in TW is divided half and half, with half of these prefering to unite with china, and half of these wanting to become a independent country from a poll that some TW media did sometime ago. So, it's really hard to leave this issue up for the general public to decide, and i think we have already seen enough of those violent(peaceful???) protests after the last presidential election in TW.